shot placement is also huge

in everything

you don't should shoot a hog with a 22lr because you know it won't do much

so you make the better shot


also hand guns just are not death rays especially small ones , even people who will be dead in 5 minutes can walk and talk often.

CNS is the only right now stop on anything

I have shot quite a few rabbits and squirrels with a 22 pistol. A whole lot more fur bearers. Use an old single shot 22 for butcher hogs. 22 is quite lethal when you can put the bullet where you want it. If your fighting for your life I think something with multiple rounds is a good plan. If I am fighting my plan is multiple rounds in the assailant. I would not choose a 22 but 4-5 into someone should take the wind out of their sails. I think whatever you carry you want to be able to launch several rounds quickly with dinner plate groups at 6-8 yards. Multiple rounds on target is more important than anything else.

I guess you're saying he is lying and I expect nothing less from you. And I'm sure you have shot lots of things with 9mm or other handguns right. Obviously not or you would know better


9mm as Is all handgun rounds are weak. Most self defense rounds are designed for 4.5" barrels and longer. Many 9mm defense guns are picked for the small size and ease of carrying and have shorter barrels slowing velocity and they don't expand. Sure a 20 lb fox died but it took some time . Time a person could use to do harm and he wants much quicker stops to threats. I have seem this first hand from a friend's self defense shooting. One of the slugs was on the ground after passing through the attacker and had no deformation or marks other than rifling marks on the bullet. I don't remember how many shots he took all hit and the guy died bu not as fast as he would have preferred.

As fare as someone getting shot is enough of a deterrent wannabe I suggest you do some reading and see how many people get shot and don't even know they were shot tell later.

And whoever said people can't take a center fire rifle round and move I will give you my brother in laws #. He will tell you it often took 3 to 7 rounds to put the skinny afghans down with 14" barrel his m 4. Funny thing though when he used the m 14 they went down normally with 1 shot.
First Hand accounts on people from a man that did it. Even with rifle rounds velocity and bigger holes are better and make a difference. A 14" barrel m4 loose a lot of velocity.

Lots of opinions with nothing to back it up with.

No fox for me but coyote and bobcat with my sub compact 9mm. Both very effective. Both in the chest and just as dead and as fast as if I'd done it with my 243.

https://youtu.be/UANI6U-SL4o?si=GlvNTjEj4PxSdokS

Here's the video of a guide talking about killing a Kodiak with a 9mm in self defense. They probably aren't as tough as squirrels or foxes but it is some first hand knowledge

The only reason there’s a video is because it worked in that instance, lol. A pellet gun would kill with proper shot placement. If my bear guide has a 9mm as a backup, then I’m getting a new guide.

Do some research and see if there's any stories where a 9 wasn't enough in any self defense situation. People get shot with them every year so we should know the results

12 ga.

multiple definitely has a added effect

you work on the target you have not the target you want , you don't get perfect targets you make do with the best hit you can get when you can get it.

#1, yeah, I guess in a way.
#2, expect nothing less from me?.. please explain.
I've seen bears dispatched with 9mm so yeah, a 10 lb fox shot through the lungs ( I know he said 20#)
is no match for a 9mm.

Now back to work young fella and make some $?

Any handgun round even the vaulted 44 mag is at best a poor round compared to a rifle, and even a 45 needs to hit a vital spot to stop and attacking person even one not hopped up on drugs or alcohol, back in the late 80s local cops answered a call about a man waving around a machete, when they arrived he charged them screaming and took 2 rounds from a 12gauge in the chest and still managed to close with the officers and cut them up badly even though he died at the scene he still lived long enough to come close to killing those cops

You say ya someone’s high on drugs can take a lot of killing but he had none in his system not even alcohol, just a hard old man that had lived on the streets for years

Any expert on self defense will have multiple stories about some guy taking multiple shots and still being on their feet and fighting effectively

a cop here made a traffic stop and ended up taking a 44 mag round right in the chest missed his heart by inches, this was before all cops started wearing body armor the shooter just stood there looking down at that officer who raised up and shot him dead with his 9mm, that officer survived to go on and have a long career the bad guy ended up in a box


Lots of such stories out there going back to the first time a gun was ever used, unless you hit the brain, heart or the central nervous system your unlikely to drop them on the spot, and even that’s no guarantee of a one shot stop, look up the story of bullet head Johnson who was shot in the head during the Lawrence Kansas raid during the civil war and survived, the wound which never healed ended up killing him in the end due to infection but that wasn’t till decades later

My own personal story of a failure to stop involves a scrawny feral cat that I caught after it killed over 30 half grown ducklings and caused up a tree and shot with my trusty 1911 45acp with a direct chest hit, I went back inside and had diner then came back out to bury the remains and when I bent down to pick up up it up and bit me

On the plus side several years ago I got mugged and put both my would be muggers down with a single shot from my 9mm neither died but both ended up on the ground screaming and crying

didn't the FBI do a test in the 90s that said the 9mm is a weak round .

A 380 will shoot through a 4x4 post. May be a few guys out there tough enough to take that and keep coming but I bet not many. Except with a brain shot any firearm will leave that guy a few seconds to keep coming.

they based the start of much of that research on take always from the Miami Dade but they missed the take away where the 9mm rounds that found their target because the guy with the 9mm model 59 lost his glasses in the car crash , was shooting from across the street and wore coke bottles and the hits wouldn't have stopped the shooter if they were 357mag

they down loaded a 10mm till it was hardly more than a 9mm then got similar performance for 20 years before now going back to 9mm with a 135gr +p critical duty round as their standard loading in a G17

40s&w cost more , was harder for many agents and officers to qualify with , hit rates per round went down.

guns broke sooner , guns wore out sooner

so basically all the costs were up the effectiveness wasn't realized so they found getting hits is better than not getting hits and having it cost more.

thus back to 9mm with better bullets

at the end of the decades , the FBI has been saying 10% gel through 4 layers of denum >12 inches <16 inches

so 9 , 40 and 45 are all calibrated to get into a 4 inch window

Yep, I seen that. Phil shoemaker.
Prototype bullet if I remember right?
That was a great interview!

That was not his or is his defense hand gun of choice but it worked and sounds like it worked well.

As with all things guns/ caliber/ killing, nothing will be suitable in every scenario.
But to come on a forum and tell people that a fox shrugged off a 9mm bullet through the lungs..., well,
And yet there are those that show up that defend that is mindblowing!.


Oh well...., it's the internet.

A few months back. ordered some 9mm Precision Delta V1 and V2 bullets........they are being loaded as target loads. Although both are 124 grain hollow points, the Internet seems to think neither are expanding. So a test. Loaded to about 1100 fps to duplicate factory velocity.

I wanted something to catch the bullets, so setup a 2cu ft bundle of peat moss......which is a rectangle. About 12 to 13 inches by 16 inches or so by 30 inches. Tried the 12 inches......bullet went thru that. Then 16 inches......thru that. Then 30 inches and also thru that.

Ultimately, shot a 1 gallon jug of water......passed thru that.......into the long side (top to bottom) of peat moss. Jug exploded. The PD V1 recovered.



Then plugged a same gallon jug with PD V2.......although a hollow point.......it does not expand. Jug did not explode.........same hole in as hole out. Passed thru first bundle into second. Merely a flesh wound.

Bottom line? Some thug or zombie gets plugged by a 9mm expanding bullet.......life expectancy is measured in seconds.....not minutes. A couple of those in the chest and one to the head and it is going in a box to be buried.

Why would you shoot anything(or anyone) just once?
Keep shootin till it drops.

. But I’m trying to figure out how 9mm is supposed to be great for 200lb 2legged predators if a 20lb fox shrugs off a double lung shot?[/quote]


"The 9mm blows the lungs right out of the body"-- JB

Boco, I've shot MANY critters with a .22lr and stone colded em dead.
Always figgered a much larger 9mm was overkill.
Guess not.

I prefer carrying a 12 gauge for self defense.