I can find examples of .22mag dropping polar bears by natives. It's not hard to find s few examples of x caliber dropping x animal. I watched a guy drop a moose with a 9mm on video. Guess that should be your go to moose gun. Deer drop faster with a .22 than a 12 g pumpkin ball slug. But to question a man when he says he had a hard time finding a fox and telling it was hit with a 9mm shows you limited experience . Shooting a lot of animals out side of trap distance. I'm sure the same people would believe a coyotes shot through the lungs with 223 would spin flip them run 200 yards only to still be breathing by the time you make it out to them. Or that a head shot gray squirrel would still be breathing and trying to craw off with hole throu it's head and small bits of brain coming out with the blood 5 min after it was shot. Strang unexpected things happen. Just because you have not seen it doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen.

This shouldn’t even be taken seriously. If you cannot take down smaller game with a 9, what do you think a .45 would do for you? Honest question. No offense intended, just trying to gather an understanding.

As mentioned above, bullet construction and load developments are a big factor- but overall, it is competence.

A 9 will absolutely eliminate bipedal threats effectively in the right hands.

Bigger is only better if you can control it.

9mm has been killing people for what a hundred years or so? A 223 kills coyotes and deer and people also.. the question is not if it will kill more of will bigger stop movement/ threats faster. Yet the military wants improvements over 5.55 wonder why. Could not bee wanting better performance.

.22 lr will stop anything in Indiana in its track I know first hand. I also know it has limitations and needs good shot placement. But there is no reason to need any big than a .22 for self defense right? Why a 9mm more recoil more expensive to shoot its just not needed. Big is not better after all right.

I can say from experience that I’ve shot rabbits with a 9mm that ran off before they died. I’ve also shot them DRT. Like has been said, shot placement is key. And that is the downfall of a pistol. Accuracy of a pistol is not nearly as good as a long gun.

I have shot lots of animals (rabbits/coon/fox/coyote) DRT with a .22 rifle at 30 to 40 yards on a very regular basis. If you could shoot accurately enough with a pistol, you could do the same. A lung or heart shot animal is bound to run off before dying no matter what is used. That just stands to reason. Unless you make it impossible to run (ie brain or major motor bones), the instinct is to flee. I’ve shot lots of deer through the lungs with a 7mag that made it 20/30 yards before piling up. I’ve also took them through the front shoulders and they drop on the spot.

It’s all about shot placement…in a self defense situation, keep pulling the trigger and putting lead on target till you get one that stops the threat!

Providing “self-defense” against two-legged is typical range not beyond 20-25 meters, a rimfire cartridge could do the trick. I doubt they will be standing still enough for you to lace one in their retina though. Unless you are either lucky or a dead-eye dick.
9mm, on average, has 4x that of a .22lr.


And the reason for the next gen’s is because of better technology and resourcing of enemy armor. That and probably some money laundering. 7.62x51 would have performed just fine. But too many domestic civilians have that weapon. See a third point there?

TST, my friend shot and killed a meth head that came in his house and had a butcher knife reared back and ready to throw at him. Bill kept a Ruger LC9 loaded with Critical Defense on the table next to his chair. Told the guy to drop the knife and when he didn't Bill shot him with one shot to the heart. Said uuh and dropped like a sack of taters. DRT. This guy had just got out of Macalester prison the week before and had been seen screwed up around town. Picked Bill's house entirely at random to walk into, absolutely no connection what so ever. This was summertime and the front screen door wasn't locked.
Guy picked the wrong or right house depending on how you look at it. Kansas has great gun laws and Bill didn't even have to go to the police station, good shoot no problem. It's all about shot placement.

Rules of war prohibit using anything actually good. You can blow someone up on the battle field with a bomb but heaven forbid you use a hollow point bullet.

Anything beats your fists when it comes to self defense.



Just like your fox and coon, people don’t die like they do in the movies when they’re shot either.

Thats why you shoot until the threat is eliminated.


And when it comes to gunfights, fire superiority will win the day. I will always opt for round count over size, within reason. I’d rather have 17-21 rounds of modern 9mm in the mag than 7-8 in a .45 1911. But the 1911 is certainly better than nothing!

If memory serves, the knock on 9mm was started after a gunfight in FL between cops and robbers where thugs got plugged, but didn't go down. That begat an FBI study and that begat a new and improved cartridge.......the 357 Sig.......which was quickly adopted by some police forces and gubmit agencies alike. The funny thing is.........the 357 Sig is 9mm........uses exact same bullets.......all it does is spit them out at 1350 to 1400 fps vs. 1100 or so. If a guy uses 9mm +P or +P+ (major) ammo, you get the same result. But you need a gun that can handle the extra pressure. With dense powders like True Blue, you can put enough powder in a 9mm case to get to 357 Sig velocities and beyond. Probably enough to blow up most guns. The potential of 9mm is very high.

So guys using lite, short barrelled carry guns are going the other way as far as velocity is concerned. Some of the bullet makers have designed their jacketed hollow points to expand at the lower velocities you get from 380's and some 9mm's. The RMR nuke comes to mind. Even at 1,000 fps, you wouldn't want to be be standing in front of it when it goes off.

Why would anyone hunt with a pistol for any reason other than to limit themselves? Like archery, yes it takes more skill and you need to be closer. Now hunting rabbits, foxes and such there is nothing better than a 22 mag rifle. Small wound, extreme accuracy. Even a good shot placement with a 9 is going to mess up your animals more than a 22, and far less likely to be drt. I carry a 9 because I can dump a mag very fast with all bullets in a pie plate at 10 yds. I don't care how big you are or what drugs you're on, 6 shots in the chest inside 10 yds and you're going to drop like a rock. I prefer da/sa as well. No safety, one less thing to think about. When I'm hunting, it will always be with a rifle. No sense having an animal suffer needlessly.

My brother in law knows a guy that got shot by a 9 and a 45 in the same incident. I believe the cops shot him. He said the 9 felt like a knife stab, and the 45 felt like a sledge hammer.

what if your carrying the 9 and he fox and raccoon are targets of opportunity

even if you leave the rifle on the tractor and you are out unwrapping the bales you are feedings when the racoon rolls out of the feed trailer , are you getting to the rifle on the tractor probably not but , pulling your pistol from your belt is a real option.

Hunting with a pistol is not much different than hunting with a bow or a flintlock. You against that too?

Yea,,,OK.Sounds like you might need a little target practice.

I guess I used incorrect terminology for the professional hunter that is Bucksnbears…. I shouldn’t have said “shrugged off”. I couldn’t tell if the fox were hit or not by looking at their reactions. But they acted as if I’d shot with a bow and I was expecting something more dramatic. I wouldn’t call just one shot with 9mm ethical on them. I’ll put it that way.
I also apologize for over estimating the weight of a red fox. They’re dainty critters. But I guess it only proves my point more.
I just wanted to share my experiences hunting with self defense cartridges and just say your pistol that you carry is not the death ray you may think it is. Practice with it, see its effectiveness for yourself. Shooting steel and classes only do so much.

No he is just a guy that thinks his limited experience is the only way things happen. Anyone can come to any conclusion when they have limited experience and a small base to bace it on. There is a big difference between am aimed shot on an animal in a trap or aiming on one up close.

I also have killed hundreds of animals form deer to carpenter bees with a .22 hand gun. Does not mean I think everything drops from larger calibers.
Packed my glock since I was 19 when I bought it. Never hunted with it but I have killed from mice up to horse with it. Lots off animals in between because it is alway on me and what I have when needed. Kills everything dead. I have the personal experience like you that shows 9mm is weak and not everything many believe. The same experience that makes me no longer like my ar in 5.56 and prefer larger cal. Sure a 5.56 works but I prefer things to drop right now vs run or spin and flip. Personal preference based on first hand experience . And I don't make a judgment until I see at least 30 different reactions .

Let them believe what they want and pack what they want. You won't Change their mind when they already know it. It's a wast of time to try. They can't lt comprehend things happen differently than they should at times. Like my head shot squirrels that's right more than one still alive with brain running out of their heads after shot with rn.22 cci standard velocity as a prime example. I would never believe it but I had it happen not once but 2x. Hundreds of squirrels killed before and never in myblife would I have believed it was possible. Yet..

Never had it happen with a rabbit or squirrel but have several times shot a coyote in the forehead, 22LR pistol, and had the bullet ricochet around outside the skull. Pretty rare but it happens. Bullets can do funny stuff. Im with Boone. Life or death I am not shooting once and waiting to see if it was enough.

Hammer down....

There ya go... was a poor choice of words. Hence my remark. We've all done it. No harm/ foul.

I'm not a professional hunter k9Beav. I just play one on the " net".