I'm having a timber buyer come out tomorrow and look at mostly black walnut trees on my farm. Is there anything I need to make sure is in the contract?

Any tips?

Keith

contact your state's Forestry agency and ask for a Service Forester site visit...shouldn't cost anything, but ask when you call.

they'll get you started in the right direction.

there's a LOT to managing timber the right way, and a good bit of knowledge even just to sell it.

Aside from the financial you need a clause covering conditions of roads and access. Not only should things be returned to at least an as found condition it can also be used for improvements if the equipment will be on site to do so.

Contract terms, stumpage pricing terms, payment terms.

Who is responsible for post harvest clean up. Make sure terms that property will be left in as good or better condition than before harvest began.

A harvest plan with detailed cutting prescription and map.

Get multiple quotes too. Highest price most often isn’t always the best overall experience, pay attention to quality of job. It often pays to take the middle of the road offer as that’s the best outcome as you aren’t getting screwed on value and the quality of the harvest is typically better.

I’m a forester, happy to answer any additional questions Keith.

Google "who buys black walnut trees in ohio" . lots of info on the internet.

This is good advice. A reputable forester will have you covered and pay for themselves. You can expense their commission to offset some capital gains.

I'm picking up my check tomorrow from the logger. 100% paid in full before they set foot on our farm.

Ol dad

I just checked and Ohio has the "call before you cut" program. You should look into it.

Ol dad

I got a friend that has a forester come out and value the trees and tells him which ones to cut.alot of times the loggers take the best and leave the rest. Taking the least desirable ones leaves the better ones get bigger and the walnuts from those trees will be planted by squirrels and have better stands come up for future generations.

Get more than one quote.
But don't shop around the quotes you get, anyone can outbid the previous guy by a nickel.

Keith, this wouldn't happen to be a group out of Hardin county would It? My brother and i were just contacted about two weeks ago about a wooded area we own. Not sure how they got our number on it. Windstalker sounds like he's got the questions to ask.

Yup, high grading is what happens when you leave it up to the cutter. They pull the best and leave you the junk.

Every cut should start with a cruise identifying the culls that'll never make anything. Get those gone even if it means just dropping them. Next plan for the next cut, what are you keeping that has a chance to grow into something nice. Get them the room and sunlight to thrive. What's left is what your looking at for this cut. If need be mark each and every tree go or stay.

Rereading my last I see one thing. Always be planning for the next cut, always. The goal is that each cut should be better than the last one.

Thanks everybody. You gave me a lot to think about and look into.

The guy coming out to look at my walnut trees is my dad's first cousin. I've known him my entire life. I even lived with his younger brother, while I was waiting for my house to close and had to have Dayton residency for work. I think he will give me good advice and a good price, if he wants it. He buys veneer, but has a timber company he uses to cut, who buys saw logs. One of my dad's other cousins' husband is retired from the veneer business and recommended him too. An ex husband of another of my dad's first cousins is also in the veneer business.

I think most of my black walnut trees are just saw logs. I've got a few I think are possibly veneer grade.

My business partner, for the nursery, has some black walnut trees that I am pretty certain are veneer grade.





She only has around 20 black walnut trees, but most are well over 30" diameter and some have close to 30' of clear trunk. She just has two small lots in a town, so finding a timber company is going to be hard.

I've only got a little over 10 acres, probably over half is wooded.

I'm going to replant and plant what I was using as my lower hayfields, with nuts from my partners trees, because they are better quality then mine.

Keith

sound advice, we had a 40 cut, and it was a nightmare to get the roads clear and level, it was in the contact that they had to took over a year to get them to come back an fix

Yea, working with logging companies is a nightmare. They never do what they say they will do. Best way to get them to do it is require a $20,000 refundable deposit returnable when all parts of the logging contract is completed to your satisfaction. They will ensure your fences and roads are repaired.

I've had loggers come and look at my woods several times, I always backed out, a lot of these guys are out right crooks, It's been recommended to get a private forester to do the marking and contracts, they also find the best price...it's what they do, it generally pays their fee and you get on the ground representation.

If you trust your guys great, you're in their area and know their reputation....but a second or third quote can't hurt....Good luck!.

you SAY that, but in your next breath (below), you tell us you're going to trust this guy because he's a relative, etc.



I was a Service Forester for about 8 years, and heard bunches of stories just like yours. I can count on one hand the number of times the landowner was "happy" with the outcome. doing it that way (handshake with a guy they knew).

you've been given good advice by guys here who know the scoop.

The best loggers to work with are those that plan to be around and build relationships. We've been fortunate to have worked with the same guy for over forty years. The smart ones know how to build relationships knowing that landowners will need more cut later. Unfortunately our guy is now long retired and in very poor health.

Ask for references from other landowners and if your area has landowner associations reach out to them for references.

if he doesn't have a well-written contract (with ALL of HIS interests covered) and a performance deposit big enough to cover potential problems, he's an awfully trusting soul.

Stumps are worth a lot. But they have to be removed by cutting the roots off so no cracks run into the main body of the stump. don't just rip them out with an excavator......jk

I will of course get a contract before anything is cut.

Keith

what are your terms?

Alot of great advice here.
One more thing to consider is the leftover slash, or limbs.
Alot of good firewood goes to waste.
I have worked with some people where I came in after freeze up and harvested the limbs.
Another way to get a little more profit from this.

I want only trees marked and agreed upon harvested. I want any tops, not harvested, left in the woods, nothing left on mowed areas. I want a 20% deposit on the signing of the contract. I want payment in full, before the start of harvest. I want any ruts or compacted area restored. I want a bond that is forfeited if any damage is not restored. I want a finite window of harvest. I want the logging company to identify and stay in my property lines, so that neighboring properties aren't damaged.

I also want references.

What else do you think I should have in the contract?

Keith

price would be an appropriate concern. How is price determined? (are you taking THEIR word for what it's worth?). would you take the buyer's word for sale price if you were selling your house?

How is damage to residual trees to be addressed? Who determines level of damage/compensation?

Who determines whether the terms of the contract are being met/ignored?

how do you know they won't mark more trees after the agreed upon number?

Oh I thought the property line was over there?
Just have your neighbor contact my lawyer.
Elllovely.

Cameleon Oak.
When I buy it is 90% Red.
When selling it is 90% White.
Selling firewood, 90% Black lol.

Ha! My neighbor just had his farm logged by a "friend of a friend". His hauling trucks had to go by my driveway, which is equipped with a cellular trail camera. He had lots of Cameleon Oak too!. And delivered to the mill on Sundays...

ol'dad

Yeah I'd hire Marlin and throw a
yellow jacket nest in his truck just to get him primed.

I had my properties logged a few years ago. Logger would pile up a bunch of logs and call 4 buyers to bid on them. The differences were astronomical. Like 4500 to 8000 per pile. He cut to the market. all white oak, then all red oak etc. I cleared 1k per acre! Loggers are about the crookedest people around. Fortunately i was on site daily. He also chopped the tops so it really didn't appear to be logged. Same guy did a friends property and it looked destroyed. Tops everywhere and impassable.

We didn't walk the whole property, but did walk most of it. There were only 8 black walnut trees that had decent value and not enough to make it worth having a crew come out and cut just them. He did say that in about 10 years, there would be a lot of harvestable trees, well over 100, with good value, if the market stays decent. His advice was to wait.

I'm disappointed, but believe I was given sound advice.

Keith

High tops are much better for the firewood cutter IMO.
Know a guy that just bought a tri-axle load. 1300
Easy Money huh? lol

Keith now may be the time for the manager guy.

I think you're right. The walnut trees have been naturally filling in really well and it would be good to select the best ones and cull the ones that, will have poor value, that hamper their growth.

Keith

If you can harvest the 8 yourself you might be able to find a small mill willing to buy at a good price...

I thought about that too. I don't have the equipment for it, but I have a friend who does, who lives 6.8 miles from here. I used to log with him and mill logs with him a lot, back in the late nineties and early 2000s.

He bought a brand new, Wood-Mizer Portable Sawmill, probably 9 years ago and has hardly used it. I could probably borrow it and even mill the logs myself.

I have a lot of huge honey locusts. There doesn't seem to be much of a market for the timber, but I suspect I could sell the boards made out of it.

It all just depends on having enough time, energy and motivation. I have less energy and motivation as I get older and hurt more.

Keith

Keith...it gets worse, lol
The mind is willing but the body says seriously?

Get a hard start/finish date with a "Lock the gate" clause when overt
No trash, ie: oil cans etc left behind
No friends/neighbors cutting firewood clause
Specify what size/species tree's get cut, and what size get left.
What about the tops?

A buddy learned the hard way. Don't ask

What is the current walnut market compared to a few years ago?

Keith