Tatiana's marten/sable hybrid caught my interest. Since we/she doesn't want to distract from the "unusual thread I started this.
So, if there is interbreeding between species are they really 2 distinct species? The wolf/dog crosses my mind. Are wolves really a distinct species?
Tatiana, withe the Sable being such a high value fur and Russia having an almost monopoly on them, wouldn't the managers be worried about diluting the sable quality?

I really should read the other thread titles before posting, I just posted on the other thread suggesting she start one on this subject.

Inbreeding, is not two different species breeding. Two different species breeding is called hybridization. I don't know what the pros and cons are of high breed marten.

Thanks Tatiana. Looking forward to more info. Hopefully you're getting some enjoyment out of this!! Why are there marten in North America but not sable?

Following this post. Pretty interesting stuff. Look forward to more of your posts and pics Tatiana!!

Thank you for sharing all that knowledge.

Regardless of what its called, that's a beautiful table of fur.

Thank you for your info and photos, Tatiana.

Trying to absorb your info, and looking at that photo, here are my observations.... I see what looks like sable , shorter tails amidst marten with longer tails. To me , the sable bodies seem a bit heftier and wider . I see some with wider , maybe sable type bodies with a tail that is in between the shorter length of the sable and the longer tail of marten. Ex, the right side row, third up from the front, the dark one. Almost nose to nose in front of that one, the left side, third up , is what seems to be the sable with its short, stubby bushy tail.

Some look to have thicker fur on the tails, over thinner , but just as long as the tails of marten. Also those tails look to be rounded more evenly on the ends, as sables over the more slim, pointed fur of marten. My guess, possibly a cross too ?

I cannot tell by colour, after seeing the piles of every colour and bling or no bling of T4Ever's great marten . So I give up on that one

I sure wish our Jack could be in on this subject. That would be icing on the cake . He would love this.

I'm guessing that those pictured in Tatiana's photo that have the large pale throat patches (some even reaching all the way to the back side) are marten.
Here's a couple from my collection, origins going left to right;
1) marten from northern Sweden, large throat patch, much coarser fur also.
2) Russian sable, almost imperceptible throat patch
3,4,5) marten from mainland SE Alaska, hardly any throat patch

I've caught marten here with no throat patch, clear up to a throat patch that runs halfway down their belly. While orange is the most common color of throat patches here, I've also caught white and bright yellow.

No Pine Marten in North America.
As for throat patches and color variations, in northern Southeast Alaska, I have taken marten that are so dark they appear almost black, far darker than a Hershey candy bar. Also a few that look almost grey. Then the pales that have an orange coloration with very dark guard hair, to no dark guard hairs at all, but simply orange.
Throat patches on my marten can run from off-white to brilliant orange, and as bearcat2 notes, from a few specks all the way from to chin to mid-belly.
I wish I had taken more photos but will dig out some that I have. A real pain, as nearly all my trapline pictures are either on my phone or in one of many SD cards.

^^^^
AV, have you ever trapped any marten off of Admiralty Island?
Many years ago I trapped some out of Hawk Inlet. They were the oddest marten I have ever caught, large, extremely coarse fur, and orange throat patches; uncharacteristic for SE in my experience.
I heard that those marten were transplanted there from M. Caurina stock; I assume from Washington. Not sure if that is true.

I found a few on my phone from a few years ago but will have to pull out some SD cards for throat patch photos.

That was a very dark marten for my line, though I will look for one I got that was even darker.

This one, next to a mink, was kind of a mottled dark. I got a high percentage of that color on my main line.

When I did get a pale, they were typically like this one.

The white marten in this poor picture was taken by a retired ADFG biologist, Neil Barten, outside Fairbanks.

Then there are weird muskrats. In the Klamath Basin, in southern Oregon east of the Cascades, muskrats were not native to the landscape. They were introduced first in the 1920's, and the first introductions were of course by a couple of enterprising ranchers. The original stocks came from Minto Flats area outside of Fairbanks! They were valued for their very dark pelts. However, they were pretty small compared to their Louisiana cousins, and as such, another batch was brought in from there.
When the fur boom went bust, like so many other fur farms that went under, the rats were turned loose.
The Basin is perfect habitat for the rats and they flourished, to the chagrin of some here that rely on ditches and dikes to manipulate the water here.
Enter me, and a biologist that steered me to a fellow with an 800 acre rat problem. This is only the 2nd year I have trapped the property, and while I try to at least put a dent in his problems, he is adjacent to an even bigger, (roughly 1 mile by 12 mile), problem. A perfectly un-disturbed rat marsh heaven that is completely un-molested.
These three rats were taken the same day within 50 yards of each other.

I have not trapped them, but knew several trappers that did. And yes, they were indeed transplants. I have seen many of them, and agree, they are inferior to mainland marten. First time I saw pelts from Admiralty I was in the ADFG office to seal some pelts, including marten and there was a guy sealing marten himself, (I later became good friends with him). When I laid my marten down, he was shocked at the difference. After he left, I asked the Bio doing the sealing if he thought those marten belonging to the other trapper were taken out of season, as in summer?
"No, those were Admiralty marten."
I didn't know the difference until then.

Why do you say No Pine Marten in NA, AV?

You mean, technically, right. I think Google said ours are martes Americana. What is the difference?

Pine marten (Martes martes) are from the Europe and adjacent regions to the east.

Pine Marten are found in Europe, Western Asia, Western Siberia, and I think Kazakhstan.

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread it's very interesting and enjoyable to see and learn about all the various differences of these species .

Yes Sharon , I totally agree with you that Jack would of enjoyed this a great deal !

I look forward to reading and learning more thank you all in advance !

Because of the Barguzin sable, exactly 109 YEARS AGO, on January 11, 1917 (i.e. December 29, 1916, old style), the BARGUZIN NATURE RESERVE WAS CREATED.