good replys lots of info

I have used both big and little holes and both work well. I used to dig big holes in the summer time so I'd be ready to trap in the fall. I didn't even know you could use little holes. LMAO

I stiil make some bigger holes just to pass the time I guess. Most of the time I do it in a bank or something as the bigger hole can bee seen better than a small hole. Kinda like putting something white in a cage trap or hanging something like a wing over a set, EYE CANDY!

When I trapped hard I didn't use many big holes most were small. But then I didn't use many holes when I trapped hard. Most of the time I used post and blind sets as they were pretty fast also.

One thing that I havent noticed being mentioned in this thread is animal pop. density. The size of the population in the area also has some influence on what combinations if any work consistantly. In lower populations food availability is normally higher. In those cases I have found curiosity type ayttractors to be more effective. In high pop. areas food type baits work better. Climate also will dictate to some degree what is effective. here in the north I do better with a bait/lure combo. When I trapped the south however i did much better with just lure and no bait. There is an infinate number of variables that will dictate what works better and when with canines. Just my two cents and thats probanbly all its worth.

Your Right Dave, I just ran out of running my big mouth, and pooped out on typing anything more. I trapped in the north and played in the snow and cold for near 30 years. Good populations of all types of critters. Now been trapping in the south and it's very different. Not as many critters in the area I trap and the RAIN RAIN RAIN is much different than what I was used to up there. Never used peat moss up north, once it got cold it stayed that way most of the time and I'd just grind up that hard dirt and use some salt at times. Now I've had to learn to play with red clay cement! And I use alot of peat now. LOL

Thanks for your input Dave, that is very important info you just gave.

Asa, So if by adding a bait solution to your meat creates a lure instead of a bait. (wow that was a mouth full!) Then how many people out there are using a true bait? If this is the case I would completely agree that both are not needed. If using the "bait" which actually has lure traits or additives, then all of your bases are covered with one product be that whatever flavor it is. Now if you are talking about using a lure only, then you can taylor it to whatever your desired outcome may be. You can with a lure play an animals instincts without using hunger as a compelling aspect of attraction. However with a food based Lure ie. "Bait" you will always be appealing to the target animals stomach because of its food based nature? So why would one not always use "bait" and get the best of both? Maybe I overcomplicated this whole discussion. Just curious. As for me, I have caught all of my animals save one this season on Kippersnacks down the hole and a shot of Red Fox urine on the backing. The one exception I caught on a blind set where I had previously caught another and didn't have time to remake the entire set. So I through out a trap and let the odors generated from the first act as the attractant. Wow it was rank. Thanks.

Here is a tidbit of a "STUDY" I done.Pulled up to a spot JWC,and I was trapping,and there was JWC at my set pointing at a big dirt clod in the jaws of my trap stating he did not do it.Well ,I remade the set,and gave it a good shot of "bladderpee",all the while JWC was doing a "STUDY" of me.

Well,you guessed it,next morning a fox in my set..
Next day JWC was at Rodgers Hides singing the praises of bladder pee.I think that study made it into his latest tape..

Phil Brown.....sighning out.....traps to study.....then furauction.....Reading PA.....

I make my own bait with my own soulution mixed in it and it works really great. With the soulution you have alot of different smells comming out of the bait. Most of the time the bait is all I use but sometimes will add a castor based lure also.

Phil,I hope you charged for lessons.You're gonna have to get a trademark to keep from getting ripped off.

I didn't want to say anything but I saw some wierd stuff when I was out your way on business a few weeks back.In the back of a field I saw a blue minivan,as I recall it had a bumper sticker that said Amish Rule!! Anyhow,it looked like some guy was staking out a goat on a lead and setting up trail cameras.I won't go into what all happened with the goat,this being a family site and all.I just found it repulsive and very,very odd.My best guess is that they were some dimwit trying to film a chucabra.I guess goats attract them better if they're all sweaty and worn out.....hmmm,go figure.

Think of this way. Let us say that a lure formula calls for 4 ozs of castor, 6 ozs of muskrat musk, 6 ozs of coyote glands, 1 oz asafoedita, 1 oz tonquin, 1 oz civet musk and 8 ozs coyote urine. One uses this at a hole set along with a 1" cube of bobcat meat down the hole. Why would it be any different if one included the bobcat meat, say 8 ozs of ground meat into the lure formula to begin with and ended up with a nice neat thick pasty lure to carry around in small bottles. Why would one want to apply lure and also carry with them big jugs of juicy stinky bait chunks dripping and slopping down the side of the jar contaminating one's traps, sets and equipment. That is why my Dad originally developed lures that were complete in themselves with a food/hunger element added along with territorial ingredients so there would be no need of extra bottles of urine to carry either, just one small bottle of lure to quickly, conveniently and cleanly apply to a set. My Dad named these lures "ALL CALL" because they were formulated to appeal to ALL KNOWN CALLS of the animal they were formulated for; hunger, curiosity, passion, nature, territorial, etc. Asa
PS- The above formula off the top of my mind would be a good one I'm sure BUT it is not the formula for any Lenon lure.

Thanks Asa. I agree with you completely. One bottle. I have even had problems with urines in a small spray bottle contaminating the outside and therefore your hands/gloves. Your dad was onto something with the thickness also. Keep it clean and simple. I like the thought of all in one.

Why do all good post on here turn into Phil vs Nightwish ? They are both good trappers with tons of time and tons of fox to trap. Bottom line on the lure and bait issue is whatever makes ya feel good. Mr. Lenon's advice should be followed as his father was a Master. Sure a fox can smell a skunk a mile away but when he smells a BLEND of gland/food/curiosity his nose needs to touch the source of the odor to properly decode it. So when making trench sets with a standard trowel the hole is large enough for the fox to poke his nose in, he will have to step down to get in it. When using small dirt holes the fox needs first dig out the hole in order to get his nose on it. Thats why using the trench set with one lure as far back in the hole as possible is so deadly. In areas were Phil and Nightwish trap there are so many foxes that the curiosity aspects of a lure is lost and its all about getting the food first so in those areas you could probably catch foxes on pop tarts. Mike

Poptarts huh? Hmmmm I think you're onto something there. I can feed myself and the foxes at the same time. LMAO

Good post Mike! I never make dirtholes more than 3" or so in diameter and at least 10" deep so a fox or coyote will have to make at least a few digs to get the scent stick up and out of the hole. Asa

God posts here guys...I have to skin so i'll be back on this one.

As for Phil and his idea that i "studied" his sets...of course, I did...I study all trappers sets and techniques. I knew about bladder pee LONG ago...and used it long ago...only now I use it more. Not from copying Phil...but from learing from others.

Thanks guys for this good info...good posts!!

Very informative posts all!
this needs to be in the archives when it's run it's course.
keep it up!
thank you all.
bob

hey i had a gray fox come under my tree stand and put his nose in a pop tart wrapper, last year, i normally carry pop tarts while deer hunting for snacks

hey i had a gray fox come under my tree stand and put his nose in a pop tart wrapper, last year i normally carry pop tarts while deer hunting for snacks

What flavor?
need to carry a few?
bob

either strawberry or smores not sure but thats what i buy, the tree stand is like a shed about 14 ft up and i kept hearing something and couldnt see it finally i looked out window and down and there he was, it was barely day light he stuck his snout in sniffed around and went on wrapper had blown out of stand a few days earlier so i guess my scent was gone

Good post indeed!

I personally do not like the trap stake wiggled out hole idea...or anything close to it. if that is the way a guy wnats to make them..and catchs fur on it, then kudos to him. The only way I ever had success with that is if its reamed out to a 1-2 in hole..and then you might as well just use your trowle anyway.

Why is a bigger dirthole better?

Canines LOVE to stick their nose in stuff...and wild canines have long since have been known to stick their entire snout in a dirthole. A tiny 1/2" to 1" hole doesnt allow for that. A 2-4" hole does.

I dont think depth is a big deal on foxes...esp if the trap is set up right. One step is all it takes...

BUT...IMO, only 5-60% of the fox are caught investigating the dirthole..the rest are caught pawing at the pattern. This has been noted in several fox studies that I have in my posession.

With these two factors, we can see why the dirthole is the standard...and the best way to catch most wild k9s..and has been for decades...