Youtube videos
#3108998
04/06/12 10:07 AM
04/06/12 10:07 AM
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K9man
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K9man
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I'm curious and like to understand why people and animals do what they do so please allow me to ask some questions.
How many of you guys feel the need to shoot video of yourselves explaining what you do, why you do it, and how you do it, and then post it on youtube?
If you are one of those who do, why do you do it?
Do you think this might come back to hurt you or your business somehow, or worse yet, have an adverse effect on the industry as a whole?
I inquired about this once before over on the general trapping forum and recieved some very harsh feedback, but in light of some recent events where youtube videos and videos that have been posted on here have been used by antis against individuals, and trappers in general, I just thought I would inquire about the professionals points of view on this topic. So don't be shy or reserved, just let her rip and let the chips fall where they may!!!
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3109494
04/06/12 04:40 PM
04/06/12 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361 mequon, wisconsin
Paul Winkelmann
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mequon, wisconsin
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OMG, K10 man, not only did you get your 9 back but I actually increased your rating! I think that this may be one of the most important questions that has been recently asked. Were it not for a task force of intelligent people around me, I would be one of the people you are referring to.
As someone who was born in the 1940's, I am so far separated from today's culture that many things I see are nearly unbelievable. Be that as it may, I am smart enough to let those in my family of the female persuasion and those who are graduates of a higher institution, decide what is important in advertising, personal appearances, and any other media out-takes.
Let's put is this way; since the majority of our phone calls originate from the fairer sex, why would we ever have anything on the internet or anywhere else, that would be so problematic for someone, that they wouldn't call? I really don't care that the majority may not agree with you, that fact is, that you are absolutely correct. The general public has no interset where their hamburger came from: and if they did, McDonalds would only be selling salads!
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3109748
04/06/12 07:48 PM
04/06/12 07:48 PM
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DaveK
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DaveK
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Show the damage, techniques, and people. Just as you wouldn't post a video of your brother behind bars...don't photograph a critter in the same situation.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: sgs]
#3109808
04/06/12 08:17 PM
04/06/12 08:17 PM
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K9man
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K9man
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Thanks for the input guys. So far it has been great, but now I have been led to inquire about other issues that are directly related to these videos.
I understand the marketing aspects and how valuable these videos can be at increasing a customer base. But to do it correctly shouldn't the poster make sure that the video is projecting a professional image to the potential customers or curious viewers? So what in your estimation constitutes projecting a professional image to the public at large, or more so to the potential customer? While I believe you guys will come up with several things that project a professional image, what do you feel are the top four - from most important to least important? Is it phone manners? Personal appearance? Speech? Vehicle appearance? The appearance of your equipment? How you interact with the customer? Is it how you manage your time and conduct your activities while on the job? Etc? The other concern I have is how much should we show and tell the public? Especially in light of the fact that you could be training your competition.
I think it was Peskycritter that mentioned it was fun to shoot and post the videos. For those of you who feel that way about it, why is it so much fun? Me, I avoid cameras and having my photo taken at every opportunity - thus my photo album is really, really thin. It is a psychological thing with me, so I wonder if it is a psychological thing with those who think it is fun, or do they just feel the need to show everybody what they do and tell them why they do it? This is where we break away from the professional marketing aspects of using videos to increase business and delve into the underlying reasons of why an individual does what he or she may do. Do you think shooting and posting these videos for some are actually a way of reaching out for acceptance, a way of achieving a sense of personal fame, or just a way of gaining self importance? Is this getting a little too deep or what?
Here is my opinion, since I am sure many of you are trying to figure out if I am trying to stir the pot or not. I am not. I am very concerned about incidents that have just recently been taking place as mentioned previously. I am opposed to the vast majority of videos being posted on youtube and other places. Just look at some of the things guys have said on this site and some of the pictures that have been posted. I have really cringed at some of them. And what about the really good well thought out videos and how they have been used out of context to hurt individuals and the trapping industry. It can happen to the best of people with the best of intentions. Some of these people posting on youtube don't have any common sense based on what they have said and shown. Some just don't have enough experience trapping, doing nwco work, or dealing with the antis to know what to avoid showing or talking about. I am not concerned about the antis coming after us as much as I am how they will use these videos and commentaries to persuade the 98% of the general public that are sitting on the fence trying to decide if they are pro trapping and wildlife management or against it. That is the real threat in my opinion.
Now, let her rip again. I am interested in your perspectives. One last question. How many of you attended any of the Animal Damage Control Workshops that were held down in Lexington, KY back in the early 90's? There is a good story there about perspectives and projecting professional images.
Edited to respond to DaveK. Dave, that is one of the problems I see, they do show the animal in the trap. And we all know how emotional people can become over an animal that is PERCIEVED to be in distress.
Last edited by K9man; 04/06/12 08:33 PM.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3110128
04/06/12 10:47 PM
04/06/12 10:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,804 NWWA/AZ
Vinke
trapper
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trapper
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NWWA/AZ
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Some "how to" on cage trapping as educational material for states that have lost the right,,,
Product marketing,,,,,,,,,, And Shameless Self promotion,,,,,,,,,
Isn't this what our industry wants???? The end of fur trapping?......
Ant Man/ Marty 2028 Vinke/ Coonman for press Secretary��..
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3110294
04/07/12 05:58 AM
04/07/12 05:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,388 Western Michigan
Animals Only
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trapper
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Western Michigan
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I know one thing. Those that think they are right have some great reasons for believing they are and those that think they are wrong have some reat reasons for thinking that. Either way your never going to please everyone all the time. As for you tube, I can take any video and twist it to a positive or negitive. Just depends I what I want the persn I am twisting the story for, to blieve. I do like Dave's suggestion to show all but the animal in the cage.
AKA: Rusty Shackleford
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3110333
04/07/12 06:54 AM
04/07/12 06:54 AM
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DaveK
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DaveK
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One does not know the number of customers lost from a video. But, I am sure it helps the competition...
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: Animals Only]
#3110436
04/07/12 08:34 AM
04/07/12 08:34 AM
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K9man
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K9man
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From the posts so far it appears we have two lines of thought about this phenomenon; those that do it professionally for product marketing and promoting themselves/businesses, and those that apparently do it for self gratification and to fill some need of professional, and/or personal acceptance/recognition. JMO, since I am not a certified psychologist. I guess that answers the "why they do it" question.
I was a little disappointed that nobody answered the question of what constitutes projecting a professional image in these videos. On the job, I would say it would first and foremost be your physical appearance. The customer sees you before they hear you speak. The neighbors will see you and maybe never hear you speak. Your appearance will project to all who see you the level of professionalism that you are striving to attain or are performing at. Edited portion: It is all about perception. At what level of professionalism does your customer percieve you are performing at.
I remember back in the mid 80's L. Craig O'Gorman started hosting student only conventions. These were very informative seminars focused primarily on professional predator control and featured some very well known speakers from the predator and furbearer management industries. Attendance was by invitation only. The cost to attend was free. But in order to gain entry into the seminars men had to be in a three piece suit and tie, while women had to wear a pants suit or a semi formal dress. Lunches and dinners were catered. And Happy Hour was in a private meeting room. O'Gorman pounded it into the attendees heads that there was a time and a place to look and smell like a trapper (he wasn't considering an urban environment) and there was a time to act and look like a professional business person.
Back in the mid to late 80's when this industry really starting to take off there was only one national organization that dealt exclusively with nuisance and depredating wildlife. That was the National Animal Damage Control Association (NADCA). Their newletter was very informative and filled with some very technical literary pieces. If you ever saw a list of their membership it was filled with primarily government employees - biologists and WS employees - and a handfull of private contractors. This was a professional organization with a professional newsletter. Then in the late 80's or early 90's ADC magazine came on the scene, which was soon getting free market competition from the newly developed Wildlife Control Technology magazine. At about this same time the University of Kentucky - Lexington started hosting a couple of nuisance wildlife management seminars. I don't recall if there was a dress code or not but most of the attendees were dressed either semi formal or, at a minimum, business casual. They had some very informative seminars with numerous speakers from the wildlife management industries and academia. But what I remember the most vividly is that all of the attendees at one of these workshops were asked to complete a seminar questionaire. It was quite detailed in what it was asking. It was asking about your age, your educational level, any training in wildlife management you might have had, etc., etc. When the questionaire was studied and the results written about, with the exception of a national franchise, the majority of private nwcos were portrayed as being mostly uneducated (high school diploma or less), untrained in scientific wildlife management techniques, who are predominately ex fur trappers pretending to be professional wildlife management experts. That was the jist of it as I recall. It was not flattering at all. So if a team of educated professionals can arrive at their conclusion about the private nwcos back then what can the public at large, an anti organization, or a potential competitor learn about you if you are posting a youtube video? How many of you that are posting have ever been formally trained in public relations? I doubt many of the youtube videos posted by fur trappers and adc professionals have ever been formally trained in pr or have even bothered to have a pr professional critique their video prior to posting it and thus have no idea how much damage they are inflicting on themselves and the industries as a whole in my opinion.
Vinke, no, I am not trying to get rid of the fur trappers. I am trying to understand why people do what they do, and I am trying to increase the professionalism of both industries.
Peskycritter, I wouldn't think of doing this to a person without asking their permission first so I will ask and let you decide if you want to take part in this or not. You have posted comments numerous times on here as well as having posted numerous youtube videos. You appear to be willing to learn. Would you be open to having some of us on here critique what you have provided us with thus far in an effort to assist you in self improvement? And in return everybody can go back through my postings and critique my writings. We'll have a sort of 360 degree evaluation and see what we can learn about ourselves from the perspectives of others. This is a gutsy move if you take part. You will be opening yourself up to full public scrutiny. I'm game. Are you?
For my part, let her rip people.
Last edited by K9man; 04/07/12 08:36 AM.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3110649
04/07/12 11:18 AM
04/07/12 11:18 AM
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DaveK
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DaveK
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Talking about this is good, and hopefully everyone can grow from the discussion. The business is diverse and there is room for all levels of professionalism. Everyone is going to operate differently - and that is where there is opportunity for both sides. As long as someone runs an honest business that honors the customer and follows the regs...go for it.
I have observed photos of bats with their teeth exposed and wings spread. Holding a bat by the wing tips is akin to holding a person by the finger tips. I think that it is poor taste at the least. Why not support the body and spread one wing? Has anyone thought about it from that standpoint?
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3110719
04/07/12 12:38 PM
04/07/12 12:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111 NM
HD_Wildlife
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DaveK,
I saw on a research site, two folks go at, profanity and all about that topic. The guy attacked stated he had worked with thousands of bats in field research and that the species he was working with it was a proper hold, the other person stated the injuries they had seen in the same type of work due to these holds.
you bring up a good point that is also controversial, I see guys crushing snakes with tongs, holding bats and blowing in their faces to get them to grimace and bare their teeth, same with coyote, raccoon and others, its another topic where people don't seem to think how the laymen or "customer" sees those things, forget the antis and how they feel, just step back and think how does joe schmo or his wife or kids feel emotionally when they are presented with picture or video with no other education on the subject.
Good point on the bats!
Justin
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3110816
04/07/12 02:04 PM
04/07/12 02:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,804 NWWA/AZ
Vinke
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trapper
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Pesky ,,,,,water runs down hill........
Ant Man/ Marty 2028 Vinke/ Coonman for press Secretary��..
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Re: Youtube videos
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#3110950
04/07/12 04:01 PM
04/07/12 04:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 539 Missouri
MoFarmBoy
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First: I haven't Got one single job from posting on YouTube Then: No offense, but I think I know why. As for why trappers post Youtube videos, I believe most, but not all, fall into one of two camps: Commercial Self-promotion Usually in the guise of edification, they present the subject warmly and professionally, while marketing their product(s) or service. Often, the videos are more slickly produced, the presenters groomed, and the language more grammatically correct. Emphasis is placed on the intended results (e.g., clean lawn, before/after roof damage shots) rather than caged or dead animals with bared teeth. Attention-seekingUnabashedly simplistic, these types often appear boastful and seem to revel in the chase and display of captured prey or even blood. It is my assertion they are seeking acceptance of some sort, or see their videos as a means of gaining respect, though their often disheveled appearance and obvious braggadocio may dissuade the more astute viewer. And K9, FWIW, I rank profesional elements' importance pyramid-style, in order of expected contact: 1. Appearance, which includes both personal presentation and professionally presented ads and printed materials. Since this is often the first impression, it ranks highest on my list. I think we would all cringe if we knew the number of potential clients repelled by typos, kitschy layouts, or campy photos. 2. Proper phone etiquette. Respectful, considerate, and timely replies are a signal of the quality of work to follow. Saying, as a former associate of mine once did, "Can I call you back? I'm in the bathroom" is unacceptable. 3. Under-promise and over-produce. Make no claims using superlatives. There are always exceptions. 4. And last, leave the site looking better than you found it.
Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3111166
04/07/12 06:53 PM
04/07/12 06:53 PM
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DaveK
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DaveK
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Pesky - Honestly, the instructional video idea is good. I did enjoy the video on setting muskrat traps with your son.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3111202
04/07/12 07:28 PM
04/07/12 07:28 PM
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DaveK
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DaveK
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I'd rather not watch that video. But, from my perspective, it couldn't hurt sales.
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Re: Youtube videos
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#3111237
04/07/12 07:54 PM
04/07/12 07:54 PM
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DaveK
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DaveK
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Have the degree, builders license, and wear uniforms. Not a big fan of suits...except on beaches.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: Paul Winkelmann]
#3111969
04/08/12 11:06 AM
04/08/12 11:06 AM
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K9man
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K9man
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What exactly do you mean pants are optional? LOL. Are you saying you show up for jobs and you may or may not be wearing pants? What kind of a business are your operating over WI? I wonder how the customer turned complaintant will discribe the employee showing up without their pants on? Will they be able to identify the work shirt and logo?
Paul, I was not a big fan of the NADCA newsletter. I was just pointing out that it was very professionally done. That was why I mentioned all of the government employees on their membership list. They definatly didn't care for the private sector. I heard the same story about the questionaire, who was behind it, and the motivation for it. But we overcame that sterotype and in a hurry. And like you, I am very thankful that I have an extremely high reading comprehension skill.
I'm not a snob and I don't look down my nose at anybody. What I do attempt to accomplish is understand why people do what they do, and in order to succeed at that I have to attempt to find out where they are coming from experience wise - life experience, educational level, etc., etc. But for the record, I do have extensive carpentry training and experience, and I do have a Bachelor of Applied Science degree in Business. Unfortunately I am a self taught biologist, which means I don't know squat other that what I have experienced in the field or read in books, studies, etc., etc.
Thanks to everybody that participated. I learned what I wanted to. Some of you are extremely articulate and really thought about your posts. It was a very good discussion.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3112057
04/08/12 12:32 PM
04/08/12 12:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361 mequon, wisconsin
Paul Winkelmann
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K9, I will let you know why I do the things I do just as soon as I figure them out. ( My wife would also like a copy of that report )
My father was a cattle dealer so I grew up with horses, cows, and pigs. The only neighbor kids I had became my mentors, so everything they did, I did. Fishing, trapping, hunting, sports, beer, fast cars, graduation, marriage, and kids. They call it growing up. As soon as I got into this business I stopped growing up and became a kid again. Right now I fit in somewhere between my two, three, and four year old grandkids.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: Paul Winkelmann]
#3113057
04/09/12 07:13 AM
04/09/12 07:13 AM
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K9man
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K9man
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Paul, you and I must have grown up almost on the same section. My dad was a life long factory worker, I had no other trappers in my family to learn from, half the kids in my neighborhood, if you can call it that, were my relatives, but I did grow up surrounded by farms and farm animals. It was a great way and place to grow up - three miles outside of a small country town in the 60's and 70's. It was all good.
MOFarmboy and HD Wildlife, very eloquently written and thought out posts. Everybody gave some great responses in assisting me in learning what I wanted to know. I'm almost right where I started with my original opinion. I think these youtube videos will hurt some of us as individuals, but their larger impact will be on the future of the industry as a whole. I think it is a bad situation that could have, and should have, been avoided.
Thanks again.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3113215
04/09/12 09:46 AM
04/09/12 09:46 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,438 Central Ohio
LT GREY
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I have two videos on YouTube. They were shot by a friend to post on Trapperman on how to "load" snares. Head Snaring Raccoons and Mink Snaring. I did it at the request of many trappers who were having trouble getting it right. I never showed caught animals. I never showed my face, as I used a close up, never used my real name or company, so I gained nothing.
I never realized that the video would be shown all over the internet, I never understood how that worked. I just wanted it on my PHOTO BUCKET and didn't know how to post it. Still don't. I do know it's on Wolfer Nation, Trapperman, ADC Network, American Trap Talk to name a few...all put on by other trappers. I've gotten PM's and seen written comments that it helped other trappers..and that alone was my goal.
There are some good videos out there. I watched some. No doubt some bad ones too. I personally enjoy most I've seen. Vinke has some very good ones and having been out with Vinke, it's like being back in Washington again...
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Re: Youtube videos
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#3113239
04/09/12 10:10 AM
04/09/12 10:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843 NH
sgs
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What I do attempt to accomplish is understand why people do what they do,... Yes, the "why" question is always the most important for me. "Why" would someone post a youtube video? There's as many reasons as there are people who do it but they fall into several categories when you're talking trapping videos. Like LT, most do it as a helpful guide for others in the trade or sport. Some do it in hopes of increasing business and yet others do it as a social networking tool. Just another way to correspond with folks of like mind. This thread brings up other "why" questions but they don't concern youtube videos so are probably not relevant. But they are pretty interesting none the less.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: Paul Winkelmann]
#3113924
04/09/12 05:24 PM
04/09/12 05:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 700 Chocowinity, NC
Phil Nichols
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K9, I have a partial list of the Lexington attendees and unless there are some lurkers, Steve Vantassel would be the only one that shows up on here once in a while.
I understand your concern. The Sierra Club ( Not one on my favorites anyhow ) has just come out against Conibears, footholds, and I guess trapping in general.
I've spent many enjoyable years fur trapping and I would hate to think that I ever had any part of ending it. OT Paul, am I on the list? Was there, bunked with Mark Melchoir (MI.) That was a watershed event in NWCO history.
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Re: Youtube videos
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#3114037
04/09/12 06:59 PM
04/09/12 06:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,785 Georgia
Kirk De
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If you are one of those who do, why do you do it?
I did this one cause the state has been indangering the public by their practices over the years and still does. I put my ad pitch at the back to sell my DVD's. I sent my dvd,s to the current and last Governor. Does no good. We have had several years of drought. It is going to take some wet years with some accidents to get their attention. Then it is too late. One of the stipulations for me to trap on GA. State right of ways was that the county I trapped in was responsible and they were the ones to pay me(State Road). Had to put up signs "DANGER" "BEAVER TRAPS". Also had to get a permit for each location. Had to give exact location. If I moved the trap 6" I had to get a new permit. They wanted me to make all live sets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYQ4iUOYUM
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3114089
04/09/12 07:26 PM
04/09/12 07:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361 mequon, wisconsin
Paul Winkelmann
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Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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You bet, Phil. I'm only missing the first page. Daniotti, Margie Darling, Erickson, Holper, Krier, Kruise, Mecum, Melchoir, Page, Pickel, Reichart, Rose, Dr. Robert Schmidt, Greg Smith (Tomahawk), Vantassel, and you and I. If anyone can add any from the first page, I'm missing the As and the Bs.
I don't envy you bunking with a Michigan guy. I've stayed with Krier a couple of times. If they ain't snoring, they're farting.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3114318
04/09/12 08:52 PM
04/09/12 08:52 PM
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DaveK
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DaveK
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: Paul Winkelmann]
#3114372
04/09/12 09:14 PM
04/09/12 09:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 700 Chocowinity, NC
Phil Nichols
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You bet, Phil. I'm only missing the first page. Daniotti, Margie Darling, Erickson, Holper, Krier, Kruise, Mecum, Melchoir, Page, Pickel, Reichart, Rose, Dr. Robert Schmidt, Greg Smith (Tomahawk), Vantassel, and you and I. If anyone can add any from the first page, I'm missing the As and the Bs.
I don't envy you bunking with a Michigan guy. I've stayed with Krier a couple of times. If they ain't snoring, they're farting. Wow Paul...what a blast from the past. Thanks. RIP my friend Jim Kruise.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: Peskycritter]
#3116305
04/11/12 08:28 AM
04/11/12 08:28 AM
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K9man
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K9man
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How many of those guys attended the club down the road after the seminars were completed for the day? I won't say anything else about that other than that was interesting. Krier and Schmitt had me just about crying I was laughing so hard.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3118275
04/12/12 04:36 PM
04/12/12 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361 mequon, wisconsin
Paul Winkelmann
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trapper
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mequon, wisconsin
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Thanks Bob, we just don't realize that we work in a business that is not only fun but most times is very profitable. Would Ford, Toyota, Google, Amazon, etc. discuss their latest breakthroughs with the competition? That would be unheard off.
Here's an example more closer to home; all of you that have some really good tips on animal or pest management from Critter Control, raise your hands. Bad choice? Okay, aallanimalcontrol. No one in their right mind is going to discuss how to make a fortune with an outsider. That's not being a jerk; that's business!
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: ]
#3118480
04/12/12 07:33 PM
04/12/12 07:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843 NH
sgs
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843
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Don't worry Paul, you didn't prove me wrong. There are no absolutes but in general it's the younger generation who are leading the trend toward free, open information. I doubt Ford or Toyota would be sharing company secrets but I'd bet a weeks pay that their machinists have a forum, somewhere on the internet, where how-to's and techniques are openly discussed. It's certainly true that some things are just not mentioned today but it wont be long before they are. There are books, videos, forums, etc. concerning every trade (and a lot of other businesses) that I know of. Some of the info is sold but it ends up on the internet pretty quick.
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Re: Youtube videos
[Re: sgs]
#3119009
04/13/12 07:42 AM
04/13/12 07:42 AM
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K9man
OP
Unregistered
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K9man
OP
Unregistered
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Like I said previously, "some people just talk to much" in order to fulfill some deeply seated feeling of inadequacy or to fulfill their "entitlement" mentality. JMO.
Paul, those glasses and someone elses fur hat - that belonged to a mutual friend of ours - had some great times that night. Enough said.
Like Bob J and Paul, I have had many valued friends in both the fur trapping and nuisance wildlife damage management industries who have shared valuable information and tips with me over the years, but, only after we had developed a trust based relationship/friendship. Other people have shared info with me only after I have paid them for personal one-on-one instructions, or through paid to attend training seminars. In all cases there was a price to be paid, be it hard cash, travel and lodging expenses, attendance fees, and, or, opportunity costs. Not only is knowledge power, but it is also valuable, and as such it should not be shared freely or openly, least it loose its value and becomes valueless.
I can think of many opportunities where posting a well thought out (public relations considered) and professionally shot video could be posted on youtube and used as a marketing tool that directed people to your business website. But in none of them would I be telling or showing people how to do anything.
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