They all know how to handle their firearms. I'm surprised that I'm the first one to bring this up but everyone who thinks the New York cops could use some more practice on the shooting range, raise your hands. I mean, the perp took out his boss without hitting any innocent bystanders. Then the cops nail nine of them with friendly fire? Fortunately, they're all going to be okay.

P.S. Mr. Flick, control yourself!

Even acknowledging that stress caused by a combat situation can effect anybody, that's some mighty whizz poor shooting, considering some were described as "Veteran Officers".

It was probobly wall to wall people there, and a guy with a gun, someone had to do something. Maybe after the first gun started poppin the natural response was to start shooting too. Its all split second decision making, and who knows how it mite have gone otherwise.

I had to call an Ohio State Trooper to help me with an injured deer call one time. Lets just say it took 2 firearms and 7 shots, at a distance of 10 ft..

When I lived in San Diego County I belonged to the Escondido Rod and Gun Club, it was located on city property and leased to the club for $1.00 a year with the provision that the city police could use it anytime for practice and qualifying. We invited them repeatedly to join us for action pistol and cowboy action matches. They never showed because they knew we were all better shots. I belonged to another club there that held high power silhouette matches, we invited the Marine sniper unit to join us. They at least showed up and got their butts kicked. None of them even placed!

I've heard 3 friends say they had the exact same experience with police officers. One friend actually had the cop give him his gun to do the job for the cop.

That brings back memories. Hit a buck coming out of the city in upstate NY one afternoon with a non hunting buddy in the truck. I got out and by the time I was looking to see if it was alive or dead the state trooper writing a ticket on the other side of the highway was on the scene.

She told us to step back and then she said, I think its going to die, to which I responded, "you need to shoot this deer, it is suffering." By this time my buddy who doesn't hunt is sheet white and the buck lets out a typical "blat" and the trooper decides to go for it. 4 shots later all to the body she repeats to me "okay you can go now, he's going to die," not true, so I say, I will gladly get my shotgun out of the truck if you'll let me and shoot this deer, nope! Sent me packing while she reloaded!

Wasn't cause she was a she either, and I did realize and still do that most folks who don't hunt never face killing an animal face to face so I don't put it on her, but think in the deer thick northeast and midwest folks should be taught where the shot goes at least and how to do it quickly and humanely.

Have another story about two pheasant hunters from southern Utah that I'll save for another time, lets just say the bird in the back pouch wasn't expired and when I offered it to them (while doing a study to check age/sex of take) to dispatch they both looked at me like I was crazy! Funny how the distance a bullet travels insulates some folks from the feeling of killing something as well.

Justin

focus on the positive they killed that sob. Hopfully some went thru the murderer is why somany were hit. Many people don't know where toput the bullitt for a quick kill they just know center mass which works most of the time but a euthanasia shot is a different scenario.
I'm not going to say much because I know to them friendly fire hits are their worst nightmare. I'm happy none of the inocents died that would be a career ender for most good people.

Paul, I agree about the incident too, obviously no officer wants that to happen and most folks hopefully never find out what its like to have to
live with that. Tough job is an understatement for anyone out there protecting folks.

Justin

This is a "no-win" situation for the cops involved. If they had chose to not shoot because of the high chance of collateral damage and the perp ran into the crowd and killed more folks there would be people demonizing them for not taking him out and doing their job just as there is now for bystanders being hit, so where do you draw the line. I just thank God I didn't have to make that choice. Also if you have never been in a situation where another person is shooting at you with the sole intent is to kill you how can you say the cops involved in this where really just terrible shots. If you honestly think you would have stood tall, taking time to take a "vinagr bead" and squeezed off the perfect shot while bullets are wizzing by your head, well...... hopefully none of us will ever have to find that out.

One of the guys that works at my fire station is married to a sherrifs deputy. We were talking about the exact same thing, and I asked how much shooting/training she gets. He said they have a range they can shoot at as much as they want at no cost, but they have to provide their own ammo. So, most of the cops probabally don't practice as much a you think b/c every time they do it is $$ out of their pockets. And unfourtanetly if they do hit a innocent bystander, as long as they have met the minimum required qualification for their dept., they are usually protected unless negligence can be proven.

I would be willing to bed if a concealed weapons holder would have hit a bystander, the cops would be pressing charges -- but they usually won't press charges against their own for the same mistake -- kind of a double standard.

Despite our fantasies, Dirty Harry and John McClane are figments of our imagination. The "shoot five bad guys in three seconds with five rounds" business is pure Hollywood. Anybody who's been in a running gunfight - police, military - will tell you that many, many more bullets miss than hit the intended targets. The "I'd have dropped him in his tracks" talk is pure balloon juice, usually spoken by somebody who's never even seen the business end of a gun pointed at him.
Life is not a video game, boys and girls!
We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

Let me preface this by saying that I am a firearms instructor. Even after George W made it so cops can carry anywhere in the USA after 911. The east coast still doesn't like anybody having guns, even cops. I had a buddy out there for a federal trial and he got hassled about packin. So, they probably shoot about 100 rounds a year and can't shoot very good. I've worked a couple shootings and none of our guys ever shot that crappy. I have also met a lot of cops out there that are great guys. That wouldn't fly in a lot of places in the west because there's a lot of guns in the crowd. Even the colorado movie theatre shooting, don't see that happening here. There'd be people pulling steel in the crowd. Denver has no gun zones, even for law enforcement, I won't go there when I see those signs. Bad deal.

It's kind of disappointing to see that so many folks think proper gun handling under pressure is a fantasy.

There are many cases in the news where homeowners and armed civilians handle themselves quite well when confronted with armed assailants. But for some reason, when it comes to cops, spray and pray is the best we can hope for?

Well SGS, I guess that they all don't all turn into robo cop by putting on the costume. In the case above, I think it would a been better to get up close and taze, but I wasn't there, so who knows. Monday morning QB wasn't part of my job description, I do hear what you are talking about though.
My nephue is one of them leo's and hes got some stories about other cops not wanting to go past the tree line after dark because " Who knows whats out there" (It was an excersise involving tracking devices on autistic children) I kinda sorta wish he didn't tell me that.

Mike, what do you mean "go past the tree line after dark"?
sgs, I knew I'd get some "I'd have dropped him in his tracks" talk. See post above. Dealing with one bad guy in a somewhat controlled situation is way different from a running gunfight. Look at it scientifically, if you can. The variables are numerous and endlessly complicated. THERE ARE NO DIRTY HARRY's in real life. If you've been in a running gunfight, please let us know how it went.

Actually Dave, you haven't got *any* "I'd have dropped him in his tracks" talk.



This wasn't a running gunfight. As a matter of fact, the perp didn't run from or fire at the cops at all.



No one suggested that there are.

You're just making stuff up to justify the poor gun handling of the cops.

Dave, I meant that most of the guys wouldn't go into the woods in the dark following a signal given off by a transmitter attached to an autistic kid. It was only a training excercise but that was kinda funny knowing so many are scared of the woods in the dark. We do have stuff here that makes the woods sorta dangerous. Wolves, Sasquatch monsters, Drunks, you never know what you will find in those spooky woods. Let me know if you would like me to articulate more.

Most bystanders were hit by bullet fragments ricocheting of of solid objects like the flower pots. I know most of the folks that want to say they can't shoot could probably make a split second decision, drop the bad guy, and calculate where all the fragments would go before each shot in a busy walkway full of people but I guess they don't get enough training for that.

In a purfect world, this is sorta how it should work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPvoBRwfYnU&feature=related

But then again, no plan ever survives the battle field, and you need to be able to think for yourself fast, quick and in a hurry.