I'd like to thank Anthony DeNicola Ph.D, the President of White Buffalo for his very government-like explanation. Sorry, but you

haven't buffaloed all of us. Nobody thinks that the government will be rushing to NWCOA's door, just because they threw out all

our old certifications and charged us for new ones. The truth of the matter is that NWCOA wants more money and with guys like

Tony De making it sound like this is a good thing, a lot of you dumbbells are going to buy it. What they are, in fact, saying is

that everyone who got certified is now less qualified than they were when they got certification, but just to prove that they are

wrong and that you have actually learned a lot since then, please send them more money and they will agree that you're smarter.

So who thinks I'm wrong?

Wink,

I'm assuming this is about the article in the newsletter? I haven't read it yet. Imagine not everyone on here is going to have it or have read it, though
I realize those that have been around awhile will know the gist of what you are talking about.

You're right Justin. I thought that since I was on vacation that everyone but me was aware of this, but I guess I stand corrected.

My problem with this whole re-certification thing is that they are trying to make us believe that this is needed for government

recognition. You should know better than anyone that will never happen, just like NWCOA does. We could all have Master's degrees

and we would still be in direct competition with your old employer. If you have to get re-certified, what they are basically saying

is that instead of getting more intelligent and proficient at ADC work, you're actually getting dumber. But if you pay us, maybe

we're wrong.

WOW! I'm out of the loop, I don't advertise, word of mouth gets me most of my work, but I was a NCOWA member years ago. I follow what goes on, Wink, you are spot on.

Paul are you saying that the state government is trying to lock out private industry for the benefit of the Feds? Really?

Besides....you know how much work it is to operate a wildlife control company. If the Feds want to raise cash....taxing is much easier way to make some dough....as is cranking up the printing presses.

I have never been certified by anyone and dont know many who have my experience who are more qualified to say they certified me to their standards. Thats why I never found any importance to get certified as it is a piece of paper/sticker I never felt served to provide verification of my experience besides a sticker on my truck.

Most if not all of these individuals setting these standards werent born or were toddlers when I began trapping in the early years of doing wildlife control work. For the younger less experienced generation it may be a seemingly progressive necessity.

Customers talking to you on the phone after a few minutes can usually recognize in most cases you talk and walk the walk competently or not.The rest is your language skill presentation making a sale.

I do understand the reason for the face advertising stating you have met some sort of standards set forth in the industry but for me it isnt something that sets me apart from any other experienced field operator. With a little money you can also get a good rating from the better business bureau as well.

I totally agree with Paul also.

Dave, your post confuses me. The NWCOA newsletter stated that we don't receive enough government recognition and that we are supposed

to believe that getting re-certified will change that. You're right about the taxing though; only this is a NWCOA tax.

An attempt to make the organization relevant?

There's only one real way to control WCOs and that's getting government acquiescence.

Article in question...Seems pretty straightforward to me...No one seems to be asking anything of anyone... and the understanding of what a trade associations mission is would go along way to ending the spin. NWCOA's mission statement has not changed, the goals set in past (by past boards) are being achieved...

By Anthony DeNicola, Ph.D., President of White Buffalo, Inc., Current NWCOA Board At-Large Director

Historically, the government has been the only group responsible for wildlife management and has focused on professional development through The Wildlife Society. The Wildlife Society uses general academic and work histories to classify members as either Associate or Certified Wildlife Biologists. As valuable as those designations are, they have do not signify ability in work-specific skills. In contrast, NWCOA is the first organization within the wildlife profession to develop rigorous standards and protocols (also known as Best Management Practices/BMP), not just low/entry level training to conduct specific tasks. Whether we like it or not, BMPs help us generate public/political recognition for the skills we have and offer. Without BMPs, the public will never differentiate us from recreational hunters and trappers.

To further complicate our mission, we have rarely been actively included/welcomed in the professional ranks of the government, and in fact been looked upon as inferior in most cases. In contrast, private and government foresters work together to define the profession, standards, and future professional development. This may be a product of their longstanding relationship, but in the interim we have to work independently to establish our credibility. We will get greater recognition as more academically trained people join NWCOA and there is a greater overlap of backgrounds. But in the meantime, we have to use certifications and training to help prove our worth.

NWCOA is up to the task. To obtain professional recognition, we have to continue to define and improve ourselves. We have established goose and bat training, and operational standards to earn the respect of the government regulators to allow us to do the work we are fully capable of conducting. We need to maintain this trajectory if we are to expand our opportunities in the future. Both state and federal professionals have looked down on us in the past and have done little to help us. We have not been considered “qualified or competent” for more “complex” programs like goose, deer, or airport work by most state and federal agencies. Therefore, we have to build the internal capacity to demonstrate our value and show that we are true leaders in our field and far more knowledgeable and capable than our regulatory counterparts and the competing federal agency, USDA-APHISWildlife Services.

Therefore, we need to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that we are better trained and more capable of meeting the public’s expectations. This will require continued training and emphasis on professional conduct (scientific methods and meeting public expectations). Another consideration, is that we want to be sure not to take for granted the tremendous support we have received from various Universities, and we should continue to build these relationships to bolster our credibility over a wide spectrum of species and conflicts.

I recently instructed a firearms training for our Association where a group with diverse backgrounds, interests, and capabilities were represented. I was impressed by everyone’s focus and interest in learning. My goal is to develop a set of BMPs for firearms suitable for our industry, to set us apart and above others in our discipline. I have tried to get non-WCOs in our profession to join in the development and integrate firearm BMPs, but have received little serious interest/action. Because government officials rely on their titles to garner credibility, they are not motivated to improve.

I want to work with our membership to set the tone and standard for how firearm use is defined for our profession and then let those outside of our Association try to join us and match our level of conduct. As part of my course, I stress that there are three primary components to handling wildlife conflicts: technical/scientific, human dimensions, and respect for animals. We should strive to improve ourselves in all facets of our work in regard to these principles to be more valued/ respected by regulatory agencies, our peers, and the general public. This process does not only define a professional, but also is smart business.

In conclusion, one cannot continue to be the leader, or be considered superior in a discipline, by title alone. We have to set standards that demonstrate our expertise in technique and concern for the welfare of our clients, the public, and the natural resources. That’s why we need another certification

I can skin a buck...and run a trot line...a country boy can survive. Hey men...you can still do that...and get certified...right?

Charles, it still boils down to "If we retest all of our CWCPs the government will accept us!" Which is a huge pile of baloney. I

certainly understand where this idea came from. The state retests our guys every five years to maintain our pest control licenses.

This is not because they have forgotten how to put bait in a bait box, but because the state government needs a steady flow of cash

for things like welfare checks. This is such a fraud that it is laughable. If you're a complete moron, for a lot more money you can

go to a class on how to pass a pest control test and they guarantee that you will pass. I have been told by a reliable source that

you need a score of 85% to become re-certified. What happens if you fail?

Paul,

Don't know what article had to do with C.W.C.P. BUT C.W.C.P. was never forever you had to submit continuing education/training and pay renewal every few years to keep C.W.C.P. status.

As we have discussed in past threads there were many CWCP's who had no relevant (or any) documentation to prove they went through the process of earning such status - either bad management/bookkeeping of CWCP paper work or the waive of magic wand granting CWCP status - before my time so don't ask me which.

To get my CWCP I followed directions and submitted and Dirk reviewed my submission and OK-ed status based on relevant documentation. I will more than likely have to test again because even though I am at EXPO I have been able to sit through very few full training presentations as I am in and out taking pictures helping with this and that and so on and won't have 75 documented hours. So just being at event sitting in hallway talking to friends won't do it.

I have not seen the test but if I fail I guess I will need to study and re-test or go through the entire process again and test. If it is like most NWCOA testing it will be straight forward with relevant questions that operators should be able to answer and like other tests those with learning disabilities will be provided with resources to accommodate. Here is CWCP info...Please read it Paul not much different than what you went through and if you notice second to last line might be relevant to your question about testing (option 2). Again Paul no hidden agenda everything laid out to be fair to all even made sure that written reports on articles, books, videos were included for those who may not have financial resources to attend training events.

The Certified Wildlife Control Professional (CWCP) program has been revamped and NWCOA will be relaunching it this Fall. This means that WCOs with expired certifications must renew. Since many members have been confused about the requirements to certify and recertify, let me provide a brief description to help clear the air.

First, the biggest change to the program is that training must meet NWCOA standards in order to qualify for certification. NWCOA will only allow training that verifies that the WCO attended the training and that the trainer is qualified to teach the class. The other change involved the inclusion of an exam. Beyond those 2 differences, the CWCP program is essentially the same as it was in the past. Requirements to Certify as a CWCP. Applicants must have: 1. 6,000 hours of professional WCO experience in 3 years or 12,000 hours of professional WCO
in 6 years. In layman’s terms you have to work 50 (40 hour) weeks for 3 years.

2. 200 hours of training time in classes or study that meet NWCOA standards. In order for a class to meet NWCOA standards the instructor must be an MNI, CNI, CWCP, or prove he/she has the relevant experience/training to instruct the class. The training class also must prove that the trainee attended the class. All training provided by NWCOA meets NWCOA standards. Non-NWCOA training planners can have their programs approved by NWCOA simply by submitting training agendas along with instructor resumes to the Certification Committee for review.

Training hours also can be obtained by reading articles and watching videos from approved sources and writing a short description of the content and what you learned from it. Contact the NWCOA office for the form used to submit reading/ watching hours.

Of the 200 hours, 150 hours must fall into 3 categories (50 hours each minimum).

Category 1. Wildlife Biology and Handling. Topics include information relating to life cycles, habits, and effects of control on wildlife, health of wildlife, population dynamics, and habitat management. Handling shall encompass animal care, euthanasia,
diagnostics of diseases, and anything relating to the possession of an animal.

Category 2. Technical. Topics include industry standards, best practices, methods, techniques, equipment, research and business management.

Category 3. Human Health, Safety and Community Relations. Topics relating to the human aspects of wildlife damage management, including zoonosis, equipment and work safety, employee, public and client safety, risk management, legalities, and other related topics.

3. Successfully pass a 200 question exam.

4.Pay fees. CWCPs seeking to renew their certification have 2 ways to renew: Option 1. Pass the CWCP exam and pay the renewal fee. The exam will be offered at the Wildlife Expo on February 3, 2015 at 2:00 pm.

Option 2. Submit 75 hours of approved training (in any category(ies)) and pay the renewal fee.

NWCOA will contact individuals who have been certified in the past. If you have been certified but have not heard from the office, please contact the NWCOA office immediately to prevent any lapses in your certification.

That test was developed by Dr. Steve Vantassel at the University of Nebraska wasn't it?

As the test is scheduled to be given only once a year at the Expo, CWCPs with expiration dates of 2015 taking it for renewal would need a passing grade or they will have to reapply and do the 200 hrs plus pass the test to qualify. Only CWCPs that have an expiration date of 2016 or later would be able to fail the test and then retest at a later date to maintain their CWCP.

Questions with the recertification test include:

1. Aside from the recertification fees what, if anything, is the cost of the test?

2. Where/what are the study guides and manuals for the test?

3. Am I able to just take the test, or do I need to attend the Expo as well?

Personally, I can't image that there are that many CWCPs that qualify for renewal as I am one of the few that did renew back in 2010. Meaning that only those that were awarded their CWCP in 2010 or completed their renewal in 2010 would need to take the test in 2015 unless they want to show 75 CEU's. I realize that others can take the test, but only those from 2010 "need" to test this February.

I do question the renewal changes for those that were already awarded CWCP recognition or received their CWCP renewal before these changes were made. The question I'm posing is whether or not it is right to change renewal criteria right before someone has to renew. For instance, if the renewal program only called for 40 CEU's for a CWCP, is it right to suddenly change it to 75 a year or two before they need to renew? I feel that all renewals should be grandfathered in terms of whatever the criteria was when they were awarded their CWCP status is what they should be required to fulfill. After they renew, they would fall under the new guidelines so a renewal in 2015 means that the criteria at that time frame is the requirement for renewal in 2020.

I have my CWCP and was one of the first. I thought the program was a great idea and as state association President got it accepted in Mass, If you came here with the CWCP you didn't have to take the state exam because you already proved you have more knowledge then the test asked you to prove. Now the big problem. Over the years many of the regional, state, and other groups seminars and training that were accepted are now left out. Now these must PAY for their training to be NWCOA accepted. I have to say the PAY part is the killer for me. Its become a business onto its self. This has all the ear marks of NPMA and I as an independent WCO (no bugs) have a major problem with that. I feel it has cheapened the whole program and made a jke out of it. There are many of these certifications in the medical field and they aren't worth the paper there written on. Only academics types give these any worth, because they make their living by teaching not doing.
I agree with Bob Jameson. I also have to say in my 20 years I have never been asked if I had a CWCP.
Don LaFountain CWCP(expired)

Thanks Don, I think it's important that people like Don LaFountain, Bob Jameson, and many other well known names lend support to

what I'm saying. Don's first sentence pertains to myself also. I was very proud of the fact that I was the very first one from our

state to become certified. ( And perhaps the last one ) I'm sure by now that most of you know that I was one of the first to join

NWCOA, was a state rep, and then became very upset with the new regimen's unfounded accusations that the old regimen had become

wealthy from NWCOA! As I've grown older I've tried to patch up differences in a hope that we could all have less animosity.

( If you find this hard to believe, refer to my last few posts on the subject ) I like Charles Holt and Jason Reger and a host of

other NWCOA reps. I don't know why they go out of their way to tick me off? Okay, actually I do. Getting rid of the old guys by

really ticking them off, is a great idea. I'm guessing that the fact that we are living longer must really upset NWCOA. Too Bad!!!

Mike,

As I have not seen the test and didn't work on it I have no idea who came up with questions on test. But Stephen would be hard to beat as the go to person for it. He is a little "dry" until you get to know him... I was privileged to put on NWCTP with him recently and had an attendee who had the knowledge to pass test but she had an issue with testing (reading comprehension perhaps a little more than that) and he made sure this lady had just as good a chance to pass as others and she did. She had to work for it and she put in the effort and I was happy for her.

Eric,

To the best of my knowledge the fee's would be covered by renewal fee. Like Bat standards and NWCTP being or going online I see online testing to be added if enough interest but I would expect additional fees associated with that to support it. As i am going to have to test or get hours before my CWCP is up I had figured it was a basic knowledge associated with industry type test and would take test based on that, study guides never entered my mind as topics in categories 1,2,and 3 should be in my knowledge base as a CWCP but I do see your point and will check on it and let you know.

Don,

OK but a trade association will have revenue besides membership dues. Don't like it don't renew. No one is making anyone do anything UNLESS one chooses to use NWCOA owned marks, certifications, logo's ETC in advertising. While you think the current program is a joke I felt the same way about old program...go to a event and get credit for entire event...even if you spent all your time in hallway, craps table or bar....you know it went on and I know it went on...wheres the value in that? Some of us don't wait to be asked if we are CWCP's we use it in marketing efforts to property management companies, cities, corporate accounts and yes even residential accounts and if you don't think those in a corporate environment, have degrees or levels of competency in their lives make business choices based on measurable amounts of training of service providers... you are wrong. If one is more of an ADC type business it may not matter as much as a WCO working in an urban environment.

Paul Live long and prosper...Heck make a few more babies...But no one in NWCOA is discussing you or any non-member...We don't have time with more states picking up NWCTP and looking into other NWCOA training as well as private entities and non-profits selecting NWCOA to provide training along with working on EXPO we have no time for non-members. The only reason I come here is that we do have members here and I address issues concerning NWCOA. If you want a voice concerning direction of association you know what you need to do...You don't agree with NWCOA...I understand and not a problem but we have membership that does and have voted for this direction for their trade association when they want a change they will vote for it...until then we will stay the course directed by majority of membership.

I'm also a CWCP who is up for this renewal. I have also been in the business for over 20 years making a real living not just dabbling. I trapped my first raccoon at 9 years old have had many conversations person to person with Bob Jameson, Don LaFountain, Mike Page, Ron Jones, Jim Driesacker, Bob Meakin, Alan Huot and various other professionals in this industry. I hate to say it but we know way more from just doing than any test or certification ever will be. Yes I'm a CWCP who will not be feeling forced to attend a convention to take a test or prove 75 more hours of training. I have sent my $250 dollars to retain my professional status as a CWCP from the day I was certified. That is not enough?? I think this has all "done got out of hand". I will be spending February in Costa Rica and Florida catching fish and taking some time to stop and smell the roses not reproving to anyone what I have already earned in the past.

Craig Conway CWCP
Advanced Nuisance Wildlife Control Services

You got to know when to hold them...know when to fold them...know when to walk away...know when to run.

Thanks Charles.

I don't see how a test can be held without supplying some sort of study guide. While it may seem that all CWCPs should know certain things, the reality is based on what species they work with and services they offer each will know different things about biology, behavior, species, equipment, and business practices. However, if a manual like the Nebraska Basic Operator Course is used (as it has a bit of everything in it), then everyone has a base to work off of.

Also, could you also see about how many hours the Nebraska course is worth? They have three option, so does each option have a different set of CEDs based on which option you choose or is it going to be just a single set of CEDs regardless if you take the course, do the books and test or just do the test.

Lastly, can you also see why WCT Magazine isn't on the approved periodical list.

Thanks again.

No problem Eric. I will respond via email directly to you.

Got my renewal for WCT will have Deb do that in the next few.

You go, Charles!
I do consider my CWCP distinction to be a selling plus: nobody else has one in my area. It's prominently featured in our marketing and mentioned whenever I need to close a sale.
I don't know why this is so hard for some to understand: industry certification by a national trade association is verification that you meet certain well-defined standards. Not being certified doesn't mean you don't know your stuff, just shows a lack of proof.

Exactly.

Charles, all the information that had to do with this re-testing was sent to me by NWCOA so don't give me this,"I don't know what

article had to do with CWCP" garbage. Maybe you better start reading what NWCOA sent before you start being their spokesman.

Mike, my informed source tells me that of course Vantassel is in charge of this whole deal. ( Which probably explains why Holt is a

little shaky on some of the answers.)

Mr. Conway, have a great vacation and enjoy yourself!

Charles, as you can plainly see, your members agree with this as much as I do; which is not at all. Now I have always given you

credit for coming on Trapperman ( which can be a hostile environment at times ) but you clearly were not able to answer even one

pertinent question, so instead of taking all the heat, why not let Vantassel answer the questions. After all, it's his test!

Paul - so don't join and don't pursue recertification. I'd rather Charles spend his limited time helping me and other members. I've picked up so much the last month on their FB page.

What I copied is direct from NWCOA CWCP revamped article in newsletter. NWCOA works through committee and as a board member I vote on what committee puts forth. As a board member I am part of some committees but not others.

Lets ask Eric as a past board member he should have exact answer on this CWCP misinformation from past. You always had to complete X numbers of training hours in X amount of years to keep CWCP status! That's not new. How many hours of training was it Eric? I am not sure on hours needed in past but its nothing NEW as some are suggesting, just streamlined and requiring training to come from approved sources. So now if you attend 1 hour of training you get one hour of credit if the presenter meets standards. As an example you got 20 hours or so for old wct event but only 9 credit hours for a entire semester of a applied trade or college level course...seems out of whack huh? That has been corrected. Any training can be put forth for credit hours along with presenters bio to committee but what they won't do is the leg work checking on your training. A known operator with a minimum of CWCP status presenting on topic with syllabus of said training would be more than likely accepted by committee. Some BS sent in and expecting a volunteer to do leg work to confirm would be rejected and sent back to applicant for conformation.

Your second, third and forth hand information from those who are anti NWCOA is...almost like that old "Mikey" commercial...don't let them send you on a mission Paul...they know how to push your NWCOA button... I have been contacted by members who have worked on CWCP test (after your post) and while Stephen may be involved and could act as proctor and I bet he had input on test... What is wrong with that? His status within academia lends value but I guess since he doesn't have 20+ years of fur trapping experience he doesn't count... The first annual NWCOA wildlife training college being held at University of Georgia in 2015 is a bad thing as well I guess.

And the fact remains Paul I don't have to answer any questions from non-members but I try and what does it get me but a snide reply from you. But I guarantee you I am more in the loop than your "sources" and I can assure you Stephen will never lend insight to this forum after how he was treated here but to be fair let your "sources" come forth and I would be happy to treat them with the same exact level of "professionalism" as Stephen was offered here.

Thanks Dave & Dave..

And for other members here or even non-members who have a thirst to advance in business send me a PM with your Face Book link that I can click on and I will friend you and when you accept I will add you to a couple nice sites one NWCOA and another that has value as well.

I dont know how many of you know or really care about our roots concerning the PANWCOA and this topic, but Phil Nichols a forum member and since retired to the good life, was president, myself, Rick Shadel, Jerry Pickle and some others I do not remember all names or they didnt stay the course so to speak. We were the first individuals to start the PANWCOA association in the summer of 2001 with official membership cards given out Dec.31,2002 and then we eventually joined with the now NWCOA in 2001.

So with all of this discussion some of us have had a long stake in this organization from the beginning so I have solid foundation in this topic Phil will most likely remember the dates more exactly if I am off a few months. But I have my original membership card to this day.I had my original card laminated and good that I did as it has taken a few baths in my lifetime due to several mishaps over the years.

I was member #001 in the Pa organization along with the other individuals who took the steps to organize and to get the ball rolling.So I think we are some of the old relics and forefathers in this organizational front.

Some of us may not qualify according to the lack of testing to qualify for the certification certificate based upon the current standards but we have walked the walk for 30 years in working Nuisance issues across the country and fur trapping earning our credibility for contributing practical comments in this area that we are discussing.

I also had a hand in establishing the initial testing standards for the current Pa. Pest Control permit.So I hope that those that dont think I or others qualify for making our comments or dont meet the current organzational certification standards will know the facts and why I have the opinions that I do regarding the current standards. Particularly concerning men or women that have long served their time and paid their dues within the industry.

CWCP is just a sales tool, no different than glitter on a stripper.

It's an attention grabber that buys credibility for those who have none.

It provides revenue to the business of NWCOA.

NWCOA knows that they can easily change the terms and in crease the fee of the "Certification" at will because the majority of CWCP will go right along with it rather than risk the shame of loosing their "Certification".

I have fixed countless jobs over the years that went off the rails which were first attempted by CWCP.

Another shining example of how people try to circumvent their lack of knowledge by attempting to buy credibility.

If you don't want or need the CWCP, don't get it. Like you state, it can buy credibility for those that don't have it. But, it is a little more, you have to prove competency. I never got the CWCP....but I have a Masters Degree...and my customers value that more. I am considering getting the CWCP to get other benefits like a zero deductible with liability insurance.

Bob - Thank you for having the forsight to set up the organization. Members all get one vote....use it wisely.

This topic is going to turn into several weeks of bavk and forth and I'd like to think that will result in a positive outcome but let's be honest folks it isn't going to.

Everyone on here young, old, inexperienced, experienced, certified, uncertified all have the opportunity to voice as you'd like your opinions, your facts, etc....

If you are new to this industry I'd honestly discourage you from reading this thread for one simple reason. You will end up wondering if this industry is full of animosity or good people.

In reality it has a ton of great people but has a tradition that I've watched play out of a constant ebb and flow of fighting over a variety of topics related to an association or training, certs and why or why not and what happened in the past versus what is.

For me personally this is more than I ever wanted to know and doesn't help me in my effort to run a business and feed my family.

If I see something that benefits me I take it paid or otherwise, if I can help better my profession I do that, if I think something's worthless I don't take it and I don't talk about it.

We all have choices everyday in our lives. Make yours for what you need and expect, that is all you can do. Or join and make changes as your role allows you to...

.02

I respect everyone's rigt to dissent and debate, just seems like we can't escape this deep rut..

I should add I have folks on both sides of this invisible fence that makes it even tougher to read or listen to.

Justin

I certainly didn't intend to keep any new guys from getting certified. Attending seminars and improving your knowledge of this

business is what it's all about. Anyone who thinks they know it all is dreaming. I just have a problem with retesting old guys.

It makes me think of the government, whose only reason for retesting is money.

Since I was asked to comment on the history of CWCP certification, here goes.

Charles is 100% correct in that the program was never structured to be a get it once and you're done program. Rather, the program was based off of the Certified Wildlife Biologist program which like many other professional acknowledgements (CPA, MD, DDS, etc.) requires a specific amount of continuing education credits over a specific amount of time in order to keep their certification.

Previously (at least through 2010), the renewal period was 5 years with 40 DCUs (Developmental Credit Units) in any subject. DCU's were awarded for any training that could be related to wildlife control (business, safety/health, animal biology/handling, capture techniques, etc.) where proof of attendance could be shown (certificate, letter of attendance, etc.) as well as receiving credit from proof of reading books or articles or listening to VHS/DVD/audio tapes. Credit was also given for college courses that can be related to wildlife control (business, marketing, biology, etc.) with 3 DCU's being awarded for each semester hour of credit (i.e., 3 semester hours = 9 DCUs), not the amount of time that was spent in class.

The biggest differences between then and now aside from cost (was $75 member/$100 nonmember and is currently $150 member/$350 nonmember) and changing from DCU's to CEU's is that the renewal credits increased from 40 to 75, training and are now qualified (meaning only training that meets certain criteria will be given credit versus all training), only certain college classes, books, DVD's and periodicals are approved and no test out option was previously available. As for presenter credits, I'm unsure if creating training courses or giving presentations is now approved (previously they were credited at 2x's the class so a presenter received 2 DCU's for a one hour presentation they developed and gave versus sitting the audience which was only worth 1 DCU).

Wink,

I appreciate you stating that. I think if you look at the responses there are many folks singing the idea of certs or training and so the topic has opened up beyond me what you were inquiring about why former CWCP have to "re certify."

Instead it's being treated as "why should I certify."

I don't make a plug nickel off of anything I say here I'm strictly of the belief that we should have training, we should have minimum standards and we should be looking for ways to market better and compete with govt and other competition.

Do I need certs or training or any of that to hang out a shingle? Nope, but I don't have to disparage the programs that others find useful.

We all know posts have a tendency to wander.

I'm simply saying your simple question has turned into some ugly statements that will make some new folks uncertain and that I know wasn't your goal.

I thought about this some more today. I am a charter member of NWCOA (since day one). I am also a regional director of the New York State Wildlife Management Association. I guess my problem lies not with the recertification but the fact that the test may ONLY taken at the seminar? This is a national organization and I find it hard to believe that an online version of the test cannot be created for those who cannot attend due to prior obligations. I just can't help but feel a bit betrayed by the exact organization I have supported since its inception.

There is so much misinformation in this thread, it is disheartening. Everyone has jumped to conclusions (wrongly), and then one incorrect statement leads to another, and then you get to here. NWCOA bashing at its finest.

I sit on the certification committee along with 4 others who review applications, review training, develop test questions and help with compliance. Keep in mind, this is a voluntary program that helps operators stay current on tradecraft and keeps them abreast of all aspects of the wildlife control industry. One goal of this program is that an individual can earn this certification, then he should be able to go to any state, any region, and not need additional training. Eventually, we hope that it will be universally recognized by state regulators so that if you go to another state, then you should be purchase a license and begin work and place out of any state training/testing requirements.

For those that want to know the facts, and a little history, here they are. For those who want to continue to rely on third party rumor and innuendo, please carry on with your nonsense and make up more lies about what you know nothing about.

NWCOAs Certification program was reviewed and updated a few years ago, primarily in response to NWCOA finally receiving a federal trademark/service marks for our name and for Certified Wildlife Control Professional, (tm) or CWCP (tm). This process to obtain federal marks was started in either 2005 or 2006, and was completed in 2011.

In revising and updating NWCOA certifications, a set of formal standards was created for instructors of training. As many on here have suggested, you can't very well have a greenhorn or inexperienced person training people, as the training would most likely be worthless. Because NWCOA did not have standards for instructors who did the training, most all regulatory entities did not recognize our training as accredited or our certifications as being based in sound science.

The Instructor standards are very straightforward and easy to understand. There are about 10 different ways to meet the instructor standards, and they are based upon a combination of field experience and formal education. In short, if you have lots of field experience and little formal education and are recognized by your peers as being an expert in a given field, then you would meet the standard as an instructor. Likewise, if you hold a PhD and have some field experience, then you also meet the standard. Conversely, if you have little formal education and little field experience, then you don't qualify as an instructor. NWCOA has always had standards for training and instructors accepted for certified training, but in the past, those standards were completely subjective to the opinion of the Certification committee not something written down in black and white. Now, everything is there to see exactly what is required and what is not: nothing subjective, it is a simple yes or no answer.

So, for those people have earned their CWCP in the past, and are up for renewal, what has changed? The original CWCP required 100 hours in CEUs, 3 years field experience in the last 6 years (part-time or full-time or 6000 working hours out of the last 12,000). One's certification lasted for five (5) years, and then you had to produce documentation that you had received at least 50 hours of continuing education to renew. So, anyone who is under the misconception that CWCP status was once and done, you earned for life is wrong. Original applicant had to submit documentation of work history and education requirements in triplicate to the committee for vetting and confirmation. Evidence of CEUs was required and it fell upon the reviewers to verify that all of the CEUs were in compliance. The reviewers had to subjectively look at what was turned in and judge if the application was acceptable. If the reviewer didnt know the training, the instructors, or other details, the burden fell on the reviewer to approve. In addition, hour for hour credit was given for attendance of a training event (i.e. one hour seminar at WCT or state event = 1 CEU) At the same time, a college level course in a related field of study was awarded a fraction of credits (3 hour college class, 3 hrs/week for 16 weeks = 48 hours of instruction received only 9 CEUs. Finally, Renewing CWCP had to show that they received ongoing continuing education within the last 5 years of their certification to qualify for renewal credits. In other words, you could not go back in time and use education received previously, before you first acquired certifcation.

OK, so what changed in 2011?

1. All CEUs were simplified to one hour of instruction = one ceu, regardless of where it came from.
2. All training accepted for CEUs must meet NWCOA instructor standards. In short, if the instructor does not meet the standard, then the student does not get credit.
3. Total hours required for both new applicants and renewals were increased to reflect the change in how CEUs were calculated. New applicants are required to show 200 hrs and take a test whereas the old requirements were 100 hours. Renewals require either 75 hours of continuing ed OR take a test in lieu of the CEUs. There is no "re-testing" required for CWCP renewals. 85% score is required to pass.
4. Private entities who offer training and want their customers to receive NWCOA CEUs can have their curriculum vetted for standards compliance. If the curriculum meets the standards, then anyone taking that training will automatically receive CEUs. Yes, there is a fee, and NWCOA uses that money o pay the reviewers.
5. Applicants and renewals are required to provide proof of attendance for the training (hour by hour), and provide documentation on the instructor if curriculum not pre-approved by NWCOA.
6. Fees increased to provide modest compensation for reviewers versus 100% volunteer efforts to cover costs of administration of the program.

What didn't change?
1. 5 Year certification period. Required to renew every 5 years.
2. Applicant has to submit documentation to committee of training for compliance review.
3. Any industry related training is eligible for consideration by the committee.
4. CWCP certification is open to members and nonmembers, alike.


So, in summary, get certified or don't. This is the NWCOA process and it is based upon other trade certifications like plumbers, chimney sweeps, electricians, pest control operators, septic system installers, and just about any other service or contracting trade out there. For old hands like Bob J, Don L, and others, you may not see any benefit in participating. At the same time, nobody gets a free pass, a wave of a magic wand, or gets certified because your cronies all agree that you should have it. Initially, EVERYONE has to prove it through documentation and testing to earn it the first time. After that, you have the option of attending training and accumulating CEUs for renewal OR just re-take the test to prove competency. In some states, our standards for training have been recognized and credit given for CEUs for license renewal for contractors, vertebrate pest, general pest, and nuisance wildlife permits.

Some operators see value in continuing education, and in obtaining certifications. Others don't. Some operators who are not CWCPs nor NWCOA members see value in falsely displaying our certifications and membership decals. Those must believe its worth something, because they lie about having it.

In some cases, it can save you quite a bit of money by placing out of state level regulatory requirements, or real cash. NWCOA members who participate in our insurance program, and are CWCP, are not required to pay a deductible for a claim. Current deductible is $500. One or two claims within a five year period far outweigh the cost of certification. But again, to each his own. This is voluntary program and no one is forcing any operator to participate. Just take the time to learn what the program is before believing rants on an internet forum.

Thanks
Dixon Herman
NWCOA Certification Committee member


-----------------------------------

To address some specific statements and/or comments:

Eric Arnold: Test is free and included in the price of your renewal application. No study guide provided for the test. Sounds like something NWCOA could sell for those interested, but not something I see a need for. CWCP is a national designation, and the test covers a wide range of general knowledge wildilfe control. Questions come from other NWCOA training (ie Basic Operator Certification, Goose Control Cert, Shooting in Sensitive Environments, Bat Standards, and general wildlife biology and disease from all regions of the US. In short, it is designed to show that the applicant has a general working knowledge of commonly controlled wildlife, common techniques, and related tradecraft.

In regard to renewals, the policy we had stated that 50 credits were required for renewal, not 40.

WCT is not on the list of approved periodicals because only peer reviewed, scientific journals are preapproved. Content from WCT may be eligible for CEU acceptance provided that the authors meet NWCOA instructor standards. Anyone wanting to submit material from WCT would need to provide documention on the author to the committee for vetting. If you, as editor, want to get content preapproved for NWCOA CEUs, then you can submit content for review the same way as you would if wanted your training classes vetted. You could also help your readers acheive CEus by including bios and related documentation of all regular contributors either in the magazine or on your website.


Art Lee: If you think that our CWCP certification is something that can be bought, well, you are wrong. In the past, there may have been an opportunity for some cronyism, and for those not deserving to get certified, but that surely is not the case now. In fact, your concerns regarding the integrity of the program led to the re vamp. I challenge you to apply, and see if you can EARN your certification -- you surely will not just "buy" it.


Craig Conway: Go ahead send your money for renewal, just make sure you comply. You were always required to provide contnuing education requirements, so just a check doesnt get it done. (See above: you cant buy it...) You will either need to provide your CEUs or take the test to receive renewals.


And finally, several had questions regarding the testing:

1. You are not required to come to the EXPO to take the test. It is being offered as a service to attendees who will be there anyway, and want to take it.

2. For anyone who wants to the take the test, you just need to contact the NWCOA corporate office and request a test. At that point, NWCOA will find someone near you to proctor the test or make other arrangements.

3. Long term plans were as Holt indicated, that this test will be offered online through the NWCOA website.

4. The test was a collabrative effort of the members of the Certification Committee with contributions from other operators and academia. All past and present certification committee members are CWCPs.

Never mind...:) But one thing...this is FIRST testing period and to assume that it will ONLY be given at EXPO in future is short sighted and a little paranoid. All NWCOA training has been given or is designed to go to other locations besides EXPO. Testing with a vetted proctor at other meetings, events seems simple in comparison.

Please re-read option 1 and option 2 to renew.

Talk about misinformation! Continuing your certification is a whole lot different than becoming re-certified.

Thats the point, Wink. There is no difference. You can call it whatever you want, but to renew, extend, continue, etc. (semantics), a CWCP was ALWAYS required to pay money, and provide proof of continuing ed units (CEUs).

Now you can either keep up with all of the paperwork, or go take a test. It is real simple, so simple even a cheesehead can understand it.

[quote=nwcotrapper]


"I sit on the certification committee along with 4 others who review applications, review training, develop test questions and help with compliance. Keep in mind, this is a voluntary program that helps operators stay current on tradecraft and keeps them abreast of all aspects of the wildlife control industry. One goal of this program is that an individual can earn this certification, then he should be able to go to any state, any region, and not need additional training. Eventually, we hope that it will be universally recognized by state regulators so that if you go to another state, then you should be purchase a license and begin work and place out of any state training/testing requirements."

You are blowing smoke on this one. Professional trade licenses are almost universally non transferable, think lawyers, electricians, nurses. In all cases you must pass the state's test and be granted a license in the said state to be able to legally ply your trade there. A "certification" from a private trade association has no value there. If you doubt this ask a lawyer.

I get it that NWCOA is a business and there is a profit needed. However doing on the back of the members by promising them something that is nothing more than a pipe dream is the wrong way to do it.

I personally don't need the CWCP to validate myself as a professional.
Past clients that refer me to others and my monthly statements do that well enough thank you.

Talk about blowing smoke! Do you people at NWCOA actually think that I enjoy raising heck with you? You, Dixon, personally gave

us the best advice on an insulation removing machine ever. We will be continually grateful! I have always respected Charles Holt

and his lovely bride and I have said so on many occasions. This is not now, nor has ever been, a personal vendetta. I received an

E-mail that made some of my NWCOA friends very uneasy. I'm too freaken old to worry about "Appearances" so I made a post that you

didn't like, which was exactly what it was meant to do. Since then I haven't changed my position once, but you have. No new

re-certification ( Post Deleted ) and prove that you are competent to receive continuing certification. Once again, this is not for

anything personnel, but for friends that belong to NWCOA. Sorry if this was taken personally, ( I would have felt the same way )

but Charles, and under extreme conditions, you, are the only people that have guts enough to even type on T-Man. Who is the

President, anyway?

Paul-

Check your pm box. PM box is full. Clean it out and I will send you something.


As far as "changing my position" -- I really dont understand what you are talking about. You completely lost me.

I didnt delete a post???

The certification policy is what it is and has been that way since 2011. As far as I know, anyone who wants to read it, it can be found on nwcoa.com. My best advice to anyone interested in obtaining NWCOA certifications would be to read it all in its entirety. Next, read the instructor standards policy, in its entirety. Finally, read the Marks policy, all of it. Those documents should answer anyone's questions regarding all things NWCOA related to Certifications, training, standards, etc.

Art-
Sorry to burst your bubble in regard to our certifications and opting out of permitting requirements. I am not aware of any state that requires a NWCO business license to operate. However, several states have waived permitting requirements, continuing ed requirements, and allowed waivers for certain kinds of wildlife control work IF the operator was a CWCP and up to date on his continuing ed. We just hope that more states recognize that NWCOA CWCP exceeds their state requirements, and therefore acceptable for their permitting requirements. It would definitely save a lot of hassle when applying for or renewing state permits.

hdh

I think having a club for new guys to belong to is OK. As long as nobody is trying to cram it down every ones throat. Maybe it was just mis information, but isn't that what almost happened in Michigan a couple of years ago?

Mike-
Misinformation. In Michigan, it was proposed by Michigan DNR to require a training/qualification program for permit holders. Currently, the permits are free, and you have to ask for one to get one. No experience/intelligence/know-how etc required.

Instead of creating one from scratch, MDNR proposed buying the NWCTP from the University of Nebraska, customize it for Michigan law and use that. Trappers from the UP opposed any kind of training to get a nuisance permit, got a sympathetic legislator, and got the whole thing killed. in short, Univ Nebraska's involvement was that they tried to sell their training program materials to the State of Michigan.

NWCOA didnt have anything to do with it. NWCOA has approved the NWCTP as certified training, and UNeb - Lincoln has licensed our trademark for their advertising. As such, we support the NWCTP and its training program. If someone completes the NWCTP, they can apply to NWCOA to receive "Basic Wildlife Control Operator Certification." That is the extent of NWCOA involvement in the issue.

If the majority believes that the WCO industry in Michigan is better off with no training then so be it. Just dont be surprised when some moron, who learned how to do wildlife control by watching the Turtleman, gets in business in Michigan and screws up royally. Like setting 220s on the ground in somebody's backyard to catch a nuisance coon/skunk/possum and ends killing someone's pet. Or exposing a customer to a zoonotic disease because they are ignorant and dont know any better.

Yep, that will be good for everyone that has a wildlife control business - even if you are'nt in Michigan...

hdh

Well I'm at a loss. The CWCP policy on the NWCOA website is not the same one that was there right before the WCT seminar, rather it is the one older 16 page version from March 15, 2011.

Thanks for answering the my questions Dixon, but the original policy from 2001 until it was changed in 2011 was for 40 DCU's for renewals. As for instructor qualifications, can that be put on the website for review? The newer policy had some of it in there but the one from 2011 doesn't really reference it.

PS: Ohio requires a Commercial Nuisance Wild Animal business license and a Commercial Nuisance Wild Animal Operator certification since July 2013.

We needed it in MI badly....

Thanks for you response earlier Eric.

Mike - If you think these new guys are looking for a "club" you are mistaken. These "young" guns are sharp and are collecting certifications and training like you would not believe. And the reason why is the diverse backgrounds they come from and "young" is just in reference to industry. They don't see this as an extension of trapping they have military backgrounds, corporate backgrounds, backgrounds in sales, construction trades, marketing and many more. They look at this as an industry with virtually untapped potential, they don't have the "guilt" associated with charging a living wage for a service in demand from the general public, as we have all heard repeated over and over within this industry about charging to just "catch critters". Some see that as a bad thing...evolve or get left behind has always been a rule in almost all industries but for one simple reason some think this industry should be different but still they embrace new trap designs and tools...

The "forefathers" of this industry left the cork out of the bottle when they closed the first entry point. And while certain portions of this industry require outdoor knowledge such as beaver control, predator control and some others just how much "outdoor knowledge" is needed to identify urbanized wildlife structural entry? And to offer a solution? The industry has progressed, maybe beyond what some would like, and NWCOA has followed and as the industries trade association has no choice but to continue to push what the first board members started. If it was supposed to be a club and not a trade association the mission statement and bylaws should of reflected that but they did not. So where NWCOA is and will be is a direct result of those founding members...Thanks one and all.

I am new to the industry and know nothing of the history that might play into a thread like this but it forces me to think.

My thoughts, if welcome, are this: If NWCOA wants to be a national trade association with clout they need to lower their bar for certification. Right now if I count correctly on my little screen there are roughly 475 members and around 59 CWCPs in the whole country.

My guess is most of the members joined for the reason I did, which was access to Christian-Baker. And then there are some that see the benefit of being able to market as a cwcp and made the effort to satisfy the requirements.

With a certification that requires so much training and hours I wouldn't be eligible to get it for another year or two. There are hundreds like me. By the time 3 years is up I will have figured out I can run a successful business without a cwcp designation.

Nobody is going to go through the work of getting a cwcp to someday not have to pass a state sponsored test. The state tests are easier. I passed two. I didn't have to sit in class for 200 hours or wait 3 years.

Create a test a step above the hardest state level test that everyone can take and you will get more participation. It will still be the highest distinction a NWCO can get in the country. You can still sell it to the states.

The re-certification policy that everyone is arguing about could also be dialed down. These guys already took more classes than all but 59 other people in the country. More ceu's are irrelevant. Some people realize this. That is why it looks like a revenue play.

I didn't write this to pick a side or cause trouble. Honestly believe this would help the organization reach its goals of state and federal respect and accreditation.Hope I didn't step on toes.

Bob,

I see where you are going with this and I'll state my tone here is just simple like we are talking plain at a diner about this sort of thing.

To me lowering a bar means a certificate or training doesn't mean as much. I've been at classes where showing up is all you had to do
to get a paper and leave and I didn't feel it had the same value as one where I spent time, worked hard and ultimately gained a skill or
showed my competency.

I guess for me this started back in grade school or high school with hunter safety, and so forth. Eventually I became an instructor and
again needed to prove I was competent based on time and experience.

I understand what you are saying that more folks might join, but you can be part of NWCOA as I am and not be a CWCP as I am not (hope
that makes sense).

I haven't taken any of the trainings yet even as I've had a hard time getting away from my personal and business life, but this year I'm heading
to Expo and I do plan to take part in trainings that matter to me for my business and what I do.

I've always like the idea of the CWCP, I come from a wildlife biologist background and working for the govt. as one but I grew up on a farm
hunting, trapping, fishing and dealing with problem wildlife there from the time I can remember.

Part of growing an association is proving value and it can be tough to prove value, everyone wants something for their money and I understand
that, but with the stack of renewals I have on my desk for various associations: wildlife disease, southwest naturalist, wildlife society, BCI, etc... I'm
getting ready to send funds to quite a few that I belong to without a dollar for dollar return because I'm interested and I want to develop and collaborate
across the lines with many others.

Folks that do pest control as has been stated on this thread all have to do CEU's I know they are what you make of them, you can just take the ones
that get you by, I've seen guys asleep in local pest control CEU courses and they still get credit, but to those like you, me and others who care, we can
use those CEU events or others to network, and to learn and better ourselves and our industry.

I'll close saying I hope this was as your post was, not meant to be pushy or anything, just to say, to me if we don't work long enough to earn something
or prove we deserve it, we are just saying any guy/gal who hangs a shingle is instantly certified and without any difference to an individual who has
been doing this for 10, 20 or more years as many have.

I also know many are in the boat of "I don't need anyone to tell me what I know after all these years" and to those I can't say they are wrong, just that this
isn't important to them and thats okay, just as it is for any of us to not partake.

We must in the end all decide and let others decide for themselves if they want to be part of something larger, or if that is better left to others.

Best,

Justin

Holt, I'm not saying the info or the club is bad, but I'm not saying it's any better than the info available at no charge. That's where it came from anyway.

everyone is entitled to their opinions. After being an ACTIVE member of NWCOA my business grows 10% yearly. and higher hopes of next season

Dixon and Charles thank you for your clarification and input.

Dixon, what I am talking about is that the E-mail I received had Tony De talking about basically throwing out the old certification

and everyone having to be tested again. What it ended up being is what it always was; Prove that you are getting more approved

education to maintain your certification. Had that been stated in the E-mail, I would have kept my mouth shut and none of this would

have transpired. Sorry about the full box. Never realized I was that popular. Should be room now; send away.

Paul,

I am a little confused.

The topic of your (this) thread is the title of the article written by Tony "Why do we need another certification" concerning the shooting in sensitive environments course and other items about certifications that I posted on first page of this thread verbatim.

So was this an email from Tony saying "old certifications" are being throw out or an email from another saying that was what was being done?

Either way would you please share that email here so I can answer your concerns in a pertinent way. I have re-read his article a number of times and can't seem to find even the innuendo of "throwing anything out"...I have just read it again and then had my daughter read it (as an unbiased observer) to see if she can see what perhaps I am missing. And her take was that new certifications (shooting in sensitive environments) were being added but nothing being thrown out.

I am not aware of any old certified training that NWCOA had but as a founding member you were around before me so what certifications are you concerned about being thrown out? I just want to make sure this is not an issue of someone giving you wrong or altered information. Perhaps as Dixon suggested it is an issue of semantics? But please share the email in question so we can get to bottom of this issue.

Charles, don't think I didn't want to, after all the different takes on what I was trying to say. I checked everything, including my

trash for that E-mail. That's the trouble with being on vacation. You come back and you wonder what happened? I hope someone else got

the same E-mail from NWCOA that I did. It was mostly Tony De talking about why we needed new certs. I read it a couple of times

and received another E-mail from a concerned friend, so I hope it isn't a semantics issue. ( My wife says I'm losing it and I would

hate for you guys to be the proof ) I'll keep attempting to dig it up.

Let us know if you do. I looked back through my emails from Tony and could not find it either - Don't feel bad Deb thinks I am loosing it as well that's what wives do - One of his comments regarding certifications in his article (yea, I have read it at least a dozen times now) may be the issue. I copied it from first page of this thread and will post it here. But it is concerning The Wildlife Society not any past NWCOA stuff...

"The Wildlife Society uses general academic and work histories to classify members as either Associate or Certified Wildlife Biologists. As valuable as those designations are, they have do not signify ability in work-specific skills."

Just making a distinction, not in anyway trying to lessen value for what they are, is the way I read that.

Take care Paul you need to talk or anything at all just give me a jingle.

I can see both sides but I had to laugh... just my experience with "professional groups", regulatory, and agency folks... too funny to pass up.

So I support being qualified, but I am very skeptical. Check out this link... (and be patient, I have a point to make)

http://agri.nv.gov/Protection/Resource_Protection/The_Trapline_Newsletter/

So,we can get certified/re-certified and we prove to the world we know what we are doing. We can follow all the regulatory requirements better than our federal counterpart USDA APHIS Wildlfe Services, and pay taxes to boot. But who decides that we can follow the regs better than anyone??? Hmmm, this seems like a conundrum... Ask the feds???

You can see from the articles in the link that they are vague. Officially, this is intentional so that "domestic Terrorists" don't find the rancher or the locations of traps and cause terrorism... Why then won't the "Domestic Terrorist" groups like green peace terrorize us? We'll likely have our contact information on our certification and if it is to mean anything it will have to meat state regulatory requirements and probably be posted somewhere.... Oh and because we are in the private sector, we should also probably be voluntarily audited every year to make sure we can show we followed our certification requirements. Oh and we should increase our insurance too, it will show we care more.

Perhaps we should rather write a vague, inflated newsletter of ourselves and send it to politically influential people and politicians...

I certify myself every morning.

No offense intended.

Oh, and just to re-iterate my opinion on the point of a newsletter.

If they (WS) aren't certified, they're exempt.... A point to consider; exemption vs certification, whats better?

Why bother....

Justin,

Not every one comes from the happy background with WS like you apparently do. Might be worth your consideration? But loathe away if you must...

Feel free to post your response on all threads that you'd like to and I will respond accordingly as time allows.

This did bring a little more color to this thread, but perhaps I was a few too many steps out in front of myself so let me help explain.

On your first question. A certification of training would claim you can do what you where trained in which is in some shape or form regulated. Showing you can follow the regulations!!! If the Certification is not tied to regulatory measures than it is just a pretty piece of paper...

For example lets say everyone in the private industry gets a certification (on their trapping license) to trap/snare coyotes in NV using all the latest BMPs. WS (who self proclaim to be industry leaders) however is exempt from some of the state laws that would regulate the license and the certification however they (WS) still claim they use all the latest BMPs and on and on. WS is exempt from a 96 hr trap check law, which increases their propensity to catch golden eagles (need I explain more here). Is this BMP??? Would WS be "certified" under the law or are they still "exempt" of the law? They certainly are not leaders in our industry. Although I made a few jumps here (due to time) I hope you understand what I am saying.


So why get certified if the "leader of the industry" doesn't follow BMP's due to legal exemptions?

We don't need another certification, if a majority of the industry won't follow the regulatory requirements of the certification.


Gotta go! But will continue my response again later...

ps with all that grinding my ax is either really dull or getting sharper....hmmm

Why bother...

HD. How long did he take their money? What difference would that make to anyone except you as long as he did his job as they asked? I have worked at jobs I didn't like before out of necessity, with two boys to take care of. To me, it shows NV man has character. And like people with character, someone always wants to drag them through the mud.

Because life's too short...

You guys figure it out...

No hard feeling on my end. If HD would like to discuss my history with WS I'm open to PM discussion.

Anyhow back to the topic of certificates...

Certificates and and terrorism in our industry, How they may be related.

In my previous post I meant terrorism as defined by USAC ect... You can likely find references to this in your commercial liability insurance policy, or dare I say certificate of insurance.

If you've watched the news you have seen or heard of cattle trucks being burned, fur farms being burned, and the list goes on. By the legal definition this is domestic terrorism and WS uses instances like that to justify their lack of transparency (with some actual legitimacy). So we get a certificate and then what, would we be required to post it on our vehicle that we're certified under US board of Veterinary Medical Examiners to humanely euthanize raccoon with cervical dislocation and the gas chamber? I'll take bets on a year for your truck.

I am stretching this a bit beyond the point of the article Wink refers to, but I believe my point is valid. All these certificates may not be good for the industry. How far do we take in certificating ourselves? I say we just get the entire industry within the same legal confines to begin with. Get licensed and follow the laws that apply.

Also since this may pertain to NWCOA... What states recognize NWCOA as an authority on anything wildlife? I'm pretty sure that NV doesn't throw a lot of recognition their way. Unfortunately, Politics here lean towards WS as the authority on WCO matters.

Same old tired BS about "keeping under radar" that has been promoted by some in industry for years. This is a viable industry and I don't, won't and will never hide what I do and if "they" burn the trucks I will get bigger and better with even more advertising...

Many if not most industries have a number of certifications and this tangent verges on some type of psychosis fearing that the AR types will find out what we do.

NWCOA certified training has been accepted by a number of states most recently Oklahoma and is being presented to others. Justin and other members are volunteering their time and working with regulators. Were you aware that many state regulators were under the impression that WCO's regularly killed bats in the process of exclusion? Thanks to Justin and the NWCOA bat standards that working group of regulators, biologists etc has a true picture of what bat exclusion is within our industry and further that as an industry that specializes in excluding bats from structures we also have a vested interest in the well being of bat populations.

You make the point perfectly... Nevada see's W.S. as the authority on WCO matters...So you agree that's unfortunate..so do I.. but it could be worse how about HSUS as the authority and if you don't believe they and others are positioning their self for that role you are mistaken...How do you attend to change that belief that WS service is the authority? How are you going to counter a push by HSUS promoting their standards, methods (NOW proven)on wildlife control? By keep getting a license that in most states is geared to trapping and not what we do? Follow the laws that are getting more and more convoluted by feel good methods, junk science and the AR agenda without having a voice in the process?. How do you attend to prove to regulators that business owners are the authority and have knowledge to be the source for information on commercial wildlife control and not W.S or HSUS or some regulator who has no clue? How much time are you investing(ed) in the Reno issue?

Way to many have a "stick your head in the sand" mentality in some misguided hope that things will stay the same and that is a false narrative as what professional in this industry is operating the same as they did 20 years ago? As operators in this industry it is imperative that we have a voice in the process otherwise we will be handicapped with regulations that hamper our ability to offer solutions to our clients as well as being able to provide those solutions at a profit margin that can impact our lives in a positive manor.

Some have been anti NWCOA since it's inception...it's nothing new...The original members/founders heard the same stuff we hear now but they kept on and did the CWCP, the first BOTC and many (if not most) presenters at old wct events were NWCOA members and what were they doing but advancing this industry...and that continues today. But we just have to go bigger as the threats facing our industry are much greater and the stakes are higher, operators must have a seat at the table...And that "table" has changed as those on the other side believe in certification, standards, degrees and operate within a system that promotes them...they have them and see value in them. And a non-profit works with peer review, the university system, academics and other non-profits to assure and PROVE to those across the table the value in ours. So the choice is simple take time from your business and family and go before regulators, spend just your money on lobbying efforts that best fit your desires and so on OR join a trade association representing your industry, pull funds for lobbying efforts that best fit the majority of membership - contrary to popular narrative the business owners within NWCOA don't want standards, regulations that hamper our ability to perform our duties or turn a profit - let volunteers that donate their time for issues of importance be the voice of a group of tax paying business owners and more.

Either/Or is fine with me and NV Man I hope you are an exception and spend your time and money trying to advance this industry beyond just buying your license but far to many who claim to be vested in this industry sit back and do nothing, support nothing.....but still sling stones.

Unless they protect us from USDA all the government work will eventually go to USDA Wildlife Services. Most of it already is. Our certification do not mean anything to them..... They self certify!

Historically it was trappers and individuals that managed wildlife NOT The government Tony.....How long has the wildlife society been around??

e"" government has been the only group responsible for wildlife management and has focused on professional development through The Wildlife Society.""

Good points holt but why increase my business costs any get more certificate if they aren't recognized in my state. To get them (the advanced deification a) recognized perhaps we should get the very basics recognized first. I don't dislike NWCOA I just do not currently believe they understand the politics in nv enough to be effective... Yet. So I will continue to do my own lobbying.

Just so you no I don't just throw rocks.... Across 3 state departments, I have 8 licenses, 4 certifications under those licenses and several million in insurance coverage. Oh, and I have a couple degrees if That even matters anymore. I then do bussiness in a professional manner to promote our industry, and it is working. Perhaps I should offer certificates of training? Always looking to increase bussiness revinew.

Good point about heads in the sand, I hope mine is out of the sand. I've invested hundreds of hours of my time and thousands of my money. Trying to improve the industry in NV.

By the Reno issue I assume you are referring to the trapping on urban trails etc... Well me and a few others finally got WS to stop loaning traps out to people in Reno (who really didn't know what they were doing to begin with, nor were they licensed or certified, or insured)... I wonder how many of the neighbors pet cats were caught, All with the held of so called industry leaders... Talk about hurting the industry, thanks WS for acting like industry retards!

I like the idea of less licenses and ceu headaches but what would an NWCOA certificate currently do for me in NV? Perhaps I'm missing it.

Oops auto correct on phone meant advanced certification.

The Business Coalition for Fair Competition (BCFC) seeks your input to highlight examples of where a Federal, state, local government agency, or governmental regulation/policy creates an unlevel playing field for entrepreneurs in the private sector when an agency, university or non-profit performs a commercially available activity (good or service), and therefore is in direct competition with a private sector business. In January of this year, BCFC released the "2013 Top 10 List" of the most egregious examples of where the government duplicates and competes with the private sector, including small business.

Next month (January 2015), we are planning to release an updated list from 2014.

Please send your example(s) to BCFC's John "JB" Byrd. Within your submission, make sure to include any documentation (PDF, weblink, media coverage, etc.) about each instance.

We are also seeking examples of where a Federal government agency activity, announcement, or policy promoted contracting out, public-private partnerships (P3s) or privatization of an activity previously performed in-house by the respective Federal agency.

Again, please send your example(s) of Federal success stories to John "JB" Byrd.

The BCFC deadline for your submission is Friday, December 19.

Sincerely,

John M. Palatiello, President
Business Coalition for Fair Competition (BCFC)


Click here for more info;
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/...3b-d4ae527557ea

NV man,

How do you know they won't be recognized in your state? This is a fairly new process. I applaud your efforts but with WS still being the "source" how effective are your efforts?

Their is a difference between certified training and printing a certificate of completion. Does in house, for hire training have value? Of course especially when applied to work performed we can agree on that. But where the issue arises is the lack of perceived value regulators place on such training. Going before these regulators and others for years speaking of real world experience, years of trapping experience and so on has resulted in what for this industry? WS and now HSUS being seen as the experts? Why have those efforts resulted in so little success and why should those methods continue to be followed?

Why is WS being seen as experts? Well they always have the "were from the Government and were here to help" lie to fall back on but more importantly they point to black and white standards and even though they are in house they are the government so it holds water with other agencies. How do you combat that with entities that see value in academic resources, links to universities, peer review and other issues? You play on their field and you exceed the "competitions" standards/training. You have to be able to prove in black and white why methods are sound and through relationships with those not actively engaged in the "business" promoting worth of such training/standards. We need to beat them at their own game and that is why NWCOA has actively courted universities and academics. Me and you walking in saying this is what is needed should hold more weight as business owners, but it doesn't regulators just think we want to make more money or whatever' but when a non-profit group approaches with the proper documentation and associations/connection that mirrors regulators own backgrounds, agency requirements it is harder for them to blow off and they take notice. If they still do blow you off you have a leg to stand on and the ability to prove unfair competition/ bias. As it is now for many that want to use " I have been doing this for X amount of years" "I have trapped for X amount of time" or "ask my happy customers" what regulators are taking that seriously enough to risk another entity coming in behind you and laying it out with supporting documentation that maybe a impact to your livelihood? Why is joining a group of like minded businessmen and women and adding your input to the process such a bad thing? Love it or hate it I guarantee you NWCOA membership of business owners has more in common with those who perform wildlife control at a living wage than WS or HSUS.

Myself and Stephen just presented the NWCTP for a multinational corporation that measures their revenue in the billions, performs in-house pest and wildlife control to standards that I found light years ahead but restrictive and has W.S. personnel on site. Why did they choose to use NWCOA as their source for training? I point to the reasons above as their corporate attitude recognizes like standards. Our contact had this degree, that certificate and right up there on the wall with them are the NWCOA certificates. Recognized value from a source that offered to help promote our mission with political clout/lobbying efforts we can only dream of as well as a number of states accepting or looking at standards lets me know that we are proceeding in the right direction.

Wildlifeus,

What model are you following that WS is doing a majority of work? Your state is on my short list on new office location and speaking to operators I know there they are all making money with no mention of WS impacting their business.

X2

These guys with the ink still wet on their diploma couldn't teach me crap...
I teach courses that are far more intense and informative than most of the stuff done today...

LT

Just wondering. For the naysayers....how close are you to catching the yellow trucks on total sales?

Dave K, if it's just the trucks in my area, I passed them up a long time ago. If it's the entire organization, I have always had the

deepest respect for all of their franchise owners. I will never make what their nation wide franchise makes. ( We are talking many

millions of dollars ) Do I envy any of them? Not so far. But I would certainly join another cruise, if they had one!

I was speaking about the entire organization. Anreader might have them beat in a specific market...but they beat you all. I'm other words, you might think you are the king if the hill and know it all. Then, you look at Rollins....earning 43 million in profits for Q3. Clearly, everyone on this board has a lot to learn. That's great if the readers are satisfied where they are....but don't think that you have it all figured out.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/rollins-posts-3q-profit-135213512.html

Charles,

What is the difference between the NWCOA Certified Basic Wildlife Control Operator Training program (BWCO) offered by NWCOA and the National Wildlife Control Training Program (NWCTP) offered by Nebraska-Lincoln? From your post I'm not sure if you did the BWCO course or the NWCTP course as this could be a matter of semantics. It's just that an earlier response to me along these lines was that people who passed the NWCTP could apply to receive the BWCO which leads me to believe they are two separate courses.

There is not a single public wildlife company....yet Rollins, a pest co, is valued at 4.7 billion on the stock exchange. Is there anyone going to grow or consolidate this market? Nope. You guys can't get past the fur or NWCOA or politics...or whatever.

This thread is no longer serving any useful learning experience. Let us find something else to argue about for a while.

Which is better- coffee or tea, north or south, east or west?

When making a PBJ sandwich, should the peanut butter and jelly be mixed together or should PB be spread on one slice of bread and the jelly spread on the other slice?