Oh, and just to re-iterate my opinion on the point of a newsletter.

If they (WS) aren't certified, they're exempt.... A point to consider; exemption vs certification, whats better?

Why bother....

Justin,

Not every one comes from the happy background with WS like you apparently do. Might be worth your consideration? But loathe away if you must...

Feel free to post your response on all threads that you'd like to and I will respond accordingly as time allows.

This did bring a little more color to this thread, but perhaps I was a few too many steps out in front of myself so let me help explain.

On your first question. A certification of training would claim you can do what you where trained in which is in some shape or form regulated. Showing you can follow the regulations!!! If the Certification is not tied to regulatory measures than it is just a pretty piece of paper...

For example lets say everyone in the private industry gets a certification (on their trapping license) to trap/snare coyotes in NV using all the latest BMPs. WS (who self proclaim to be industry leaders) however is exempt from some of the state laws that would regulate the license and the certification however they (WS) still claim they use all the latest BMPs and on and on. WS is exempt from a 96 hr trap check law, which increases their propensity to catch golden eagles (need I explain more here). Is this BMP??? Would WS be "certified" under the law or are they still "exempt" of the law? They certainly are not leaders in our industry. Although I made a few jumps here (due to time) I hope you understand what I am saying.


So why get certified if the "leader of the industry" doesn't follow BMP's due to legal exemptions?

We don't need another certification, if a majority of the industry won't follow the regulatory requirements of the certification.


Gotta go! But will continue my response again later...

ps with all that grinding my ax is either really dull or getting sharper....hmmm

Why bother...

HD. How long did he take their money? What difference would that make to anyone except you as long as he did his job as they asked? I have worked at jobs I didn't like before out of necessity, with two boys to take care of. To me, it shows NV man has character. And like people with character, someone always wants to drag them through the mud.

Because life's too short...

You guys figure it out...

No hard feeling on my end. If HD would like to discuss my history with WS I'm open to PM discussion.

Anyhow back to the topic of certificates...

Certificates and and terrorism in our industry, How they may be related.

In my previous post I meant terrorism as defined by USAC ect... You can likely find references to this in your commercial liability insurance policy, or dare I say certificate of insurance.

If you've watched the news you have seen or heard of cattle trucks being burned, fur farms being burned, and the list goes on. By the legal definition this is domestic terrorism and WS uses instances like that to justify their lack of transparency (with some actual legitimacy). So we get a certificate and then what, would we be required to post it on our vehicle that we're certified under US board of Veterinary Medical Examiners to humanely euthanize raccoon with cervical dislocation and the gas chamber? I'll take bets on a year for your truck.

I am stretching this a bit beyond the point of the article Wink refers to, but I believe my point is valid. All these certificates may not be good for the industry. How far do we take in certificating ourselves? I say we just get the entire industry within the same legal confines to begin with. Get licensed and follow the laws that apply.

Also since this may pertain to NWCOA... What states recognize NWCOA as an authority on anything wildlife? I'm pretty sure that NV doesn't throw a lot of recognition their way. Unfortunately, Politics here lean towards WS as the authority on WCO matters.

Same old tired BS about "keeping under radar" that has been promoted by some in industry for years. This is a viable industry and I don't, won't and will never hide what I do and if "they" burn the trucks I will get bigger and better with even more advertising...

Many if not most industries have a number of certifications and this tangent verges on some type of psychosis fearing that the AR types will find out what we do.

NWCOA certified training has been accepted by a number of states most recently Oklahoma and is being presented to others. Justin and other members are volunteering their time and working with regulators. Were you aware that many state regulators were under the impression that WCO's regularly killed bats in the process of exclusion? Thanks to Justin and the NWCOA bat standards that working group of regulators, biologists etc has a true picture of what bat exclusion is within our industry and further that as an industry that specializes in excluding bats from structures we also have a vested interest in the well being of bat populations.

You make the point perfectly... Nevada see's W.S. as the authority on WCO matters...So you agree that's unfortunate..so do I.. but it could be worse how about HSUS as the authority and if you don't believe they and others are positioning their self for that role you are mistaken...How do you attend to change that belief that WS service is the authority? How are you going to counter a push by HSUS promoting their standards, methods (NOW proven)on wildlife control? By keep getting a license that in most states is geared to trapping and not what we do? Follow the laws that are getting more and more convoluted by feel good methods, junk science and the AR agenda without having a voice in the process?. How do you attend to prove to regulators that business owners are the authority and have knowledge to be the source for information on commercial wildlife control and not W.S or HSUS or some regulator who has no clue? How much time are you investing(ed) in the Reno issue?

Way to many have a "stick your head in the sand" mentality in some misguided hope that things will stay the same and that is a false narrative as what professional in this industry is operating the same as they did 20 years ago? As operators in this industry it is imperative that we have a voice in the process otherwise we will be handicapped with regulations that hamper our ability to offer solutions to our clients as well as being able to provide those solutions at a profit margin that can impact our lives in a positive manor.

Some have been anti NWCOA since it's inception...it's nothing new...The original members/founders heard the same stuff we hear now but they kept on and did the CWCP, the first BOTC and many (if not most) presenters at old wct events were NWCOA members and what were they doing but advancing this industry...and that continues today. But we just have to go bigger as the threats facing our industry are much greater and the stakes are higher, operators must have a seat at the table...And that "table" has changed as those on the other side believe in certification, standards, degrees and operate within a system that promotes them...they have them and see value in them. And a non-profit works with peer review, the university system, academics and other non-profits to assure and PROVE to those across the table the value in ours. So the choice is simple take time from your business and family and go before regulators, spend just your money on lobbying efforts that best fit your desires and so on OR join a trade association representing your industry, pull funds for lobbying efforts that best fit the majority of membership - contrary to popular narrative the business owners within NWCOA don't want standards, regulations that hamper our ability to perform our duties or turn a profit - let volunteers that donate their time for issues of importance be the voice of a group of tax paying business owners and more.

Either/Or is fine with me and NV Man I hope you are an exception and spend your time and money trying to advance this industry beyond just buying your license but far to many who claim to be vested in this industry sit back and do nothing, support nothing.....but still sling stones.

Unless they protect us from USDA all the government work will eventually go to USDA Wildlife Services. Most of it already is. Our certification do not mean anything to them..... They self certify!

Historically it was trappers and individuals that managed wildlife NOT The government Tony.....How long has the wildlife society been around??

e"" government has been the only group responsible for wildlife management and has focused on professional development through The Wildlife Society.""

Good points holt but why increase my business costs any get more certificate if they aren't recognized in my state. To get them (the advanced deification a) recognized perhaps we should get the very basics recognized first. I don't dislike NWCOA I just do not currently believe they understand the politics in nv enough to be effective... Yet. So I will continue to do my own lobbying.

Just so you no I don't just throw rocks.... Across 3 state departments, I have 8 licenses, 4 certifications under those licenses and several million in insurance coverage. Oh, and I have a couple degrees if That even matters anymore. I then do bussiness in a professional manner to promote our industry, and it is working. Perhaps I should offer certificates of training? Always looking to increase bussiness revinew.

Good point about heads in the sand, I hope mine is out of the sand. I've invested hundreds of hours of my time and thousands of my money. Trying to improve the industry in NV.

By the Reno issue I assume you are referring to the trapping on urban trails etc... Well me and a few others finally got WS to stop loaning traps out to people in Reno (who really didn't know what they were doing to begin with, nor were they licensed or certified, or insured)... I wonder how many of the neighbors pet cats were caught, All with the held of so called industry leaders... Talk about hurting the industry, thanks WS for acting like industry retards!

I like the idea of less licenses and ceu headaches but what would an NWCOA certificate currently do for me in NV? Perhaps I'm missing it.

Oops auto correct on phone meant advanced certification.

The Business Coalition for Fair Competition (BCFC) seeks your input to highlight examples of where a Federal, state, local government agency, or governmental regulation/policy creates an unlevel playing field for entrepreneurs in the private sector when an agency, university or non-profit performs a commercially available activity (good or service), and therefore is in direct competition with a private sector business. In January of this year, BCFC released the "2013 Top 10 List" of the most egregious examples of where the government duplicates and competes with the private sector, including small business.

Next month (January 2015), we are planning to release an updated list from 2014.

Please send your example(s) to BCFC's John "JB" Byrd. Within your submission, make sure to include any documentation (PDF, weblink, media coverage, etc.) about each instance.

We are also seeking examples of where a Federal government agency activity, announcement, or policy promoted contracting out, public-private partnerships (P3s) or privatization of an activity previously performed in-house by the respective Federal agency.

Again, please send your example(s) of Federal success stories to John "JB" Byrd.

The BCFC deadline for your submission is Friday, December 19.

Sincerely,

John M. Palatiello, President
Business Coalition for Fair Competition (BCFC)


Click here for more info;
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/...3b-d4ae527557ea

NV man,

How do you know they won't be recognized in your state? This is a fairly new process. I applaud your efforts but with WS still being the "source" how effective are your efforts?

Their is a difference between certified training and printing a certificate of completion. Does in house, for hire training have value? Of course especially when applied to work performed we can agree on that. But where the issue arises is the lack of perceived value regulators place on such training. Going before these regulators and others for years speaking of real world experience, years of trapping experience and so on has resulted in what for this industry? WS and now HSUS being seen as the experts? Why have those efforts resulted in so little success and why should those methods continue to be followed?

Why is WS being seen as experts? Well they always have the "were from the Government and were here to help" lie to fall back on but more importantly they point to black and white standards and even though they are in house they are the government so it holds water with other agencies. How do you combat that with entities that see value in academic resources, links to universities, peer review and other issues? You play on their field and you exceed the "competitions" standards/training. You have to be able to prove in black and white why methods are sound and through relationships with those not actively engaged in the "business" promoting worth of such training/standards. We need to beat them at their own game and that is why NWCOA has actively courted universities and academics. Me and you walking in saying this is what is needed should hold more weight as business owners, but it doesn't regulators just think we want to make more money or whatever' but when a non-profit group approaches with the proper documentation and associations/connection that mirrors regulators own backgrounds, agency requirements it is harder for them to blow off and they take notice. If they still do blow you off you have a leg to stand on and the ability to prove unfair competition/ bias. As it is now for many that want to use " I have been doing this for X amount of years" "I have trapped for X amount of time" or "ask my happy customers" what regulators are taking that seriously enough to risk another entity coming in behind you and laying it out with supporting documentation that maybe a impact to your livelihood? Why is joining a group of like minded businessmen and women and adding your input to the process such a bad thing? Love it or hate it I guarantee you NWCOA membership of business owners has more in common with those who perform wildlife control at a living wage than WS or HSUS.

Myself and Stephen just presented the NWCTP for a multinational corporation that measures their revenue in the billions, performs in-house pest and wildlife control to standards that I found light years ahead but restrictive and has W.S. personnel on site. Why did they choose to use NWCOA as their source for training? I point to the reasons above as their corporate attitude recognizes like standards. Our contact had this degree, that certificate and right up there on the wall with them are the NWCOA certificates. Recognized value from a source that offered to help promote our mission with political clout/lobbying efforts we can only dream of as well as a number of states accepting or looking at standards lets me know that we are proceeding in the right direction.

Wildlifeus,

What model are you following that WS is doing a majority of work? Your state is on my short list on new office location and speaking to operators I know there they are all making money with no mention of WS impacting their business.

X2

These guys with the ink still wet on their diploma couldn't teach me crap...
I teach courses that are far more intense and informative than most of the stuff done today...

LT

Just wondering. For the naysayers....how close are you to catching the yellow trucks on total sales?

Dave K, if it's just the trucks in my area, I passed them up a long time ago. If it's the entire organization, I have always had the

deepest respect for all of their franchise owners. I will never make what their nation wide franchise makes. ( We are talking many

millions of dollars ) Do I envy any of them? Not so far. But I would certainly join another cruise, if they had one!

I was speaking about the entire organization. Anreader might have them beat in a specific market...but they beat you all. I'm other words, you might think you are the king if the hill and know it all. Then, you look at Rollins....earning 43 million in profits for Q3. Clearly, everyone on this board has a lot to learn. That's great if the readers are satisfied where they are....but don't think that you have it all figured out.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/rollins-posts-3q-profit-135213512.html

Charles,

What is the difference between the NWCOA Certified Basic Wildlife Control Operator Training program (BWCO) offered by NWCOA and the National Wildlife Control Training Program (NWCTP) offered by Nebraska-Lincoln? From your post I'm not sure if you did the BWCO course or the NWCTP course as this could be a matter of semantics. It's just that an earlier response to me along these lines was that people who passed the NWCTP could apply to receive the BWCO which leads me to believe they are two separate courses.