One of the nurses Judy works with got a fever that lasted for days. Ended up in the hospital for more than a week on heavy antibiotics. They kept testing and it looks to be Histoplasmosis she got from stirring up the dirt in a barn that was loaded with bats. She had fluid in her chest cavity along with enlarged lymph nodes, while going in and out of fevers. Just something to think about as it can be fatal. The doctors were excited to find the cause in something that is fairly rare.

Nuts

In my 26 years of wildlife control, I've come across several cases where people became seriously ill from Histo, 2 almost died. One was a lady in Springfield who had bats roosting under her shutters on her home. She was a flower fanatic, and worked daily kneeling in the dirt caring for her prize plants at the base of the home (along foundation in landscaping). She inhaled the spores an entire summer without knowing it, of course. She was in the hospital for 2 months, and a year later still had issues doing anything physical. Another was a case of bat guano accumulated in an attic and wall cavities. I'm still amazed how many WCO's blatantly ignore the danger of bat or bird dropping accumulations, whether inside a structure OR outside.

Ron, I am one of those WCOs that you're talking about. It's a good thing that I've always paid my guardian angel time and a half

because nearly all the diseases we talk about on here were unheard of when I was growing up. Ignorance might be bliss but it can also

kill you.

Crap, I'm glad they figured out what it was. Do they expect full recovery?

that's why if I go to the Dr. I tell them I work with wildlife. hope for a speedy recovery

I used to never go to the doctor, now if I get a cold a few days after going in an attic I wonder if I'm gonna die. Haha

Thanks so much for the additional info Ron. Very informative. Wow! I don't do much with bats other than remove them from young girls dorm rooms late at night, which can be quite stressful and demanding. Ha ha. We have bats that roost on the side of the cabin at the peak, droppings all over the place piling up, down the wall and all over the ground and I never really thought much about it other than a nuisance factor. Would netting take care of them landing there? I have some netting I got from Alan. A bit high for my ladder, but will use the tractor to elevate it a bit more and put up some netting if that will work? Other better ways? The lady has to be on oral antibiotics for 3 to 6 months, slow recovery. At least we are in the business so with any illness I would tell the docs what I did for a living to give them a heads up on what might unusual for others but common to us. At least from someone getting sick from it we can all benefit from the knowledge and avoid it. I did do some pigeon cleanups with a friend and for that we sprayed some stuff that would kill the fungus I guess before we removed it.

Jim,

Formalin is the only chemical ever ultimately shown to have the ability "kill" the spores or disinfect.

Of course it when used even in small dilution amounts is a known carcinogen and can cause respiratory distress, vomiting,
etc....

Ron is 100% that it should be treated seriously in terms of knowledge and public education and certainly in our industry.

The tough part for me looking at clean outs would be the other thread we discussed some time ago, how do you as an operator test the environment to assure you aren't the one who brings the infection and without testing how can you keep liability to a minimum?

How about our employees are guys having screening done for histo prior to the field season? After?

In medical terms histo can be serious but generally for autoimmune sufferers and the very young and very old with diminished or underdeveloped immunity.

For the rest of the general public (the bulk) even with good exposure say working in a poultry production facility without PPE, most won't develop more than an acute response that will resolve itself.

So for our industry there is a massive knowledge gap and operational gap as what is most known does not cover deeply enough how you know histo is present (we just assume it is as a rule), whether it can be disinfected with anything other than those chemicals which produce far worse results for our bodies, and liability and so on.

Back in my govt career we did a training on working in hot zones for diseases. One of the exercises we had required moving and in out of the hot zone without bringing the contaminant or virus or material with you on your person.

They used a glowing dust that reacts in black light to illustrate after everyone came back to the clean side that everyone (literally) had material on them somewhere.

How do you prove as an operator you aren't moving histoplasmosis or raccoon roundworm or any other thing we clean up through a space?

This from my knowledge base and experience isn't possible to prove without too great an expense and this we rely on the CDC amd other guidance docs which are just that, guidance, without true knowledge about what we do and how we do it.

There is a big gap....

However there is also the fact that this spore isn't causing enough sickness or mortality. If it was this would all be different.

If we get histo or a client or family member does then it is the most important illness in the world.

Clean ups and mitigation of bird droppings, bat droppings, rodent droppings, raccoon and others all have liability written all over them if you really step back and think about your inability truly remove risk...

Just my .02 it is a good subject with not enough critical discussion.

I guess I'd add a couple of questions too.

1) when you have an attic entry within a home (living quarters) do you setup a clean room and control for histo movement when you enter to inspect initially?

2) in your proposal do you state you are killing or disinfecting the spores?

3) does all of your equipment and waste from the job pass through the living quarters and if so how do you verify to the client what you did controlled any contamination?

I add these just as a couple of questions that relate to this aspect of work.

----

On the medical screening front, everyone who works with wildlife and cares about their existence should have a primary care doc who at least knows a panel of likely suspects you should be monitored for. It is unlikely many of us have that for many reasons but where the rubber meets the road while our exposure to more potential zoonotic risk is certainly higher than the public I would guess most operators expire from things we find in any walk of life. Still worth knowing and having the medical alert card with zoonotic risk to show a doctor, though you will then find most (99%) have to get out a medical book to figure out what that is and how to test for it... They simply aren't educated on "zebras" versus "horses."

Justin, the first question that comes to my mind is; Do most of these diseases have less effect in colder climates? Rabies, for

example, is not as common here as it is to our south. The reason for this question is that in my teens I should have probably caught

nearly every animal related disease known to man. Crawling through fresh pigeon droppings with bare hands was just one of my many

memories. And cleaning those hands after we were done usually consisted of grabbing some heavy grass. We were afraid of just about

nothing because nobody ever told us otherwise. The only things we used to fight infection was beer and cigarettes and I don't

remember those being doctor recommended. I really don't recall any of us crazies coming down with anything abnormal either.

Wink,

I should state I'd be right in your boat, grew up on a farm, swept up pigeon droppings, scooped chicken manure, all of which likely had mouse and rat droppings at times as well. Walked barefoot in goose poop around the mud on the edge of the pond, drank physically from the pond a few times, hunted, ate, fished, etc...

I'm married to a non farm raised woman whose immune system is the polar opposite of mine, has had food poisoning more times than I can count at this point and a sleuth of health issues and of course what we know is many things play into our own personal immunity.

While of course you've never had rabies (as you'd be dead without treatment), the other zoonotic risks be they parasites, viruses, bacteria, etc.. all fall into categories where we may get sick, not get properly diagnosed, yet still live through them.

Most if not all things start with a flu like symptom so most docs would miss the actual issues, then you get better because these things aren't virulent enough to overcome you and thus you don't go back to the doc and things subside and you move on.

Histo has a Mississippi River Valley tie in, however since then it is now known to be worldwide and I've read up lately on medical research journals just due to discussion on here and found that there are many docs saying folks should stop saying "well the patient didn't visit the Mississippi river valley so we don't have to consider histoplasmosis."

That type of statement from leading medical folks would suggest with birds and bats that no matter where you live you should consider these droppings to potentially harbor the spores, even though moisture is often indicated as a requirement for it to grow and propagate, droppings straight from birds and bats have been shown to contain the spores thus being deposited and growing afterward isn't necessarily required.

Frankly I'm not an alarmist this discussion has become somewhat interesting from the standpoint that we all sell services, many folks offer mitigation of guano, droppings, etc.. from many animals and there are open windows for us all to be sued by a half intelligent attorney if someone becomes ill after our work there.

That is most of my statements related to this, not that histo is something that is killing folks by the dozens, it simply isn't, however while on the topic we should as company owners be thinking what ground am I standing on if I'm selling treatment or removal of a disease causing organism or material.

***

Back to your original statement, I live in a plague state, every year docs here miss folks with plague, this year a lady died who had sepsis from plague and a doc missed it, it happens with many zoonotic illnesses and we should all just know that if we aren't getting better and no one seems to be guessing what we were exposed to.

Not so much for you old guys who say "somethings going to get me someday." But for anyone who wants to be around for their kids, grandkids, wife, family, etc... Why not use PPE and take precautions instead of just waiting for a risk that is always out there?

I had it a a number few years ago. Scary stuff !

And yes I was using every kind of PPE you could think of. Mess with a snake long enough your chances of getting bit go up.
Funny part is the doctor told me to quit messing with bats called 2 years later and asked if I still got bats out of houses LOL

This has been an eye opener, very informative and one more reason to like beaver trapping, skunks and woodchucks. When in California trapping 'cats years ago we would see the signs, "plague area," which we respected. Always something lurking out there to mess up a day.

Paul,

You need to remember that just because a doctor hasn't officially diagnosed you with a disease or ailment, that doesn't mean that you haven't had it. You very well could of had a zoonotic disease over the years that wasn't properly diagnosed but either your own immune system took care of it or you could have received treatment for a different diagnosis and it may have resolved the issue. Bottom line is there is no way to know for a lot of them even when the doctor is specifically looking for some (case in point, Lyme disease).

We only know about the diseases that have been named. There is still a good number of "mysterious illnesses" and diagnosable diseases that have no treatment aside from caring for symptoms. For anyone that doesn't feel like sleeping for a while, talk with some infectious disease doctors about what is showing up that hasn't "officially" been named yet. That's not a mistake I feel like making again.

Eric, I'm sure you and Justin have highlighted the most important and serious part of ADC work and the diseases we may come in

contact with. That would be lack of knowledge by the people in the health business. I'm sure I've mentioned this before but it bears

repeating. My primary doctor is also a customer and is well aware of what we do. He readily admits that because of sites like this, I

probably know just as much or more about the zoonotic diseases I might encounter. The normal family doctor probably never deals with

these diseases in a lifetime, hence they spend little or no time studying up on them. Fortunately there are always those specialists

that know these diseases and are not only recommended, but many time "called in" to treat these problems. Knowing who to recommend is

even more important for medical personnel than it is for us.

When we go up in attics and get the dust flyin around, I would think bat droppings or not ... Its prolly not very healthy to be breathing.Maybe worse things flying around in alot of attics than histoplasmosis.Seems to be a way to sale a bat job for lot of guys.....Telling folks they are living with a time bomb that will surely kill them.

Southern - You bet in terms of airborne insulation materials, old dust that comes from who knows what source, etc.... plenty of reason to be wearing a proper respirator when in attics.

In terms of how or what we tell clients as "professionals" it is important to clarify there is education and there is fear mongering. Sometimes the line might be a bit blurry but the operator knows if they are doing one or the other.

Education of your client about potential hazards or risks might be low key based on your words, your speech, your body language and yet still have folks thinking you are fear mongering.

Many nuances to this whole aspect of working with wildlife and the perceived versus actual damages or issues, not just in this disease type topic, but in all parts of what we do.

No one should want to be accused of fear mongering, however it is abundant and out there.

I've had folks tell people locally that the dead pigeon on the sidewalk outside their house died of plague (a disease of mammals) and that they needed an exclusion and clean up to keep plague from being an issue for their family.

The list goes on and on, it is important to know what you are working with and how it may impact your clients or yourself and your employees, but the line between fear and truth is often not a big step, some clients will be fearful before you even arrive, in fact many 99% with some species I work with are already scared by spending more time then they should on the internet.

Our industry of course isn't special, I know roofers who tell me of other roofers telling folks they need a whole tear down and new roof while the 20+ year veteran roofer who is honest can find only 2-3 places that could use a bit of repair while the rest is good to go for a decade plus....

Many times clients open the door themselves to asking about things that many operators don't talk about as primary items too. I answer questions for clients wherever they want to drive the bus so to speak, but I talk in facts and logic, if I don't know or would have to speculate, I tell them so.

Most folks live with a time bomb that will surely kill them...they're called wives.

Hd, You put in words I cant... Well said. Paul, thats a fact.

I remember studying histoplasmosis in college 40 years ago and thinking it was more of an "old world" disease. I'm old and it's still here. Guess what goes around, comes around.

Using PPE on the job, Tyvek type disposable suits and gloves should help the property owner understand the cost of removal and the seriousness of their predicament. If nothing else it will reinforce why they called you.

Histo, being a spore, doesn't multiply until it gets into moist, favorable situations, like damp, organically filled soils or your lungs.