I have been losing work to APHIS a lot lately, The county's i work in pay aphis to do wild life management and they do it for free for people living in the county.

How am i so posed to compete against that? they fly helicopters over and shoot them, and its all free to the farmers and and property owners.

When I advertise at farm shows or sportsman shows I get more gopher work then I can handle and a lot of inquires about predator control but its always the same why would I pay you when its free to have usda do it? My point being USDA stays out of the gopher game so i get work but they are active in the Predator game and i get very little and what i get is people that are unsatisfied with what USDA does.

I want to be clear that im not ranting about the politics of the APHIS program im just wanting to know what i can do.

I have lost jobs to them and had to lay off techs. every new job i bid im asked what i offer that they do not and i feel like a used car salesmen.

My wife made a good point: how is it any different then the county road crew paving peoples driveways.

Any ideas? I plan on calling my congressman,

Pinching - My only .02 for you would be to ask if you have talked to the district supervisor in LaGrande or if you have talked to the state director or assistant state director in Portland about your competition issues?

It may not yield anything you find valuable, but if you haven't talked to them to point out your concerns that they are taking business from you that you would otherwise be getting or think you would be getting, to me you aren't starting from a place of knowledge in terms of having your ducks in a row to head on to talk to a politician.

I'm sure you know if you are native to Oregon that there are folks in politics there that would love to remove this program from ranchers being able to use it, while there are others who fight for the programs.

You likely also know that most of the on the ground personnel you are wanting to stop doing the work actually live and often have lived for decades or more in those counties.

Though some folks retire and others quit or move on, there are some counties that have a great working relationship with their govt. agent and the ranchers have too and thus finding an "opportunity" to take over predator control could be a long row to hoe.

Programs are generally as you know partially federally funded and the other part is county funded. If a county is short often those same ranchers will kick in to make up the difference to keep the agent working (this then isn't free to them), they also consider the program to not be "free" when they are paying county taxes or livestock head tax.

I worked for WS for 10 years in a variety of capacities, have been in Oregon and the eastern portion as well, know many of the folks who haven't retired or moved on yet and know exactly what you are facing and talking about in trying to be a private business attempting to alter the culture and opportunity with the odds not in your favor.

I tell everyone who has a problem with them to talk to them first. I'm not talking about talking to the county wildlife specialist (aka trapper), I'm talking about supervisors and directors.

Have your points clear and talk them through, heck write them down before you go so you can stay on your points while talking to them.

You will still likely not have a path cleared for you to take over predator control in eastern Oregon, but to me expressing to those in your way how they are in your way and making sure there isn't a way for you to gain some new ground is a good place to start.

Your issue is not yours alone and I'm sure some folks will PM you, I've been private since I left them and I've seen real conflicts happen to others I know elsewhere for other species, and things that aren't conflicts as well but hype.

This one is simple to me, you have an old well established program that in ranch country is the kind where you aren't likely to get a bunch of political support.

Essentially you need a congressman who actually wants to back a business that wants the govt. to stop killing coyotes, bobcats and lion, so that a private guy can do it.

That is going to take a particular sort that I doubt exists right there in rural OR.

Just my .02, I've had discussions about this topic with WS colleagues, with state directors, and others as well as lots and lots of industry friends on this forum and within our ranks.

Not sure any of that helps you, just some random thoughts. People who work for WS are doing a job that was offered to them, some moved there to do the job, relocated their families, the competition with small businesses and larger small businesses is one that has been raised more times than I can count just on this little forum, plenty of fuel for the fire in the archives.

Just a personal question, is the coyote work lucrative enough for you versus other work you could be doing with nuisance wildlife? Do you make more driving thousands of acres of ranches all day checking coyote traps at $X per coyote, versus working in a more populated area (Bend, OR?) for folks who want a private business taking care of a variety of wildlife issues?

I almost quit while there and started my company in Portland or Bend. Would have never ever worried about chasing a coyote on some ranch for the cost of doing business associated with it, but thats just me...

Best of luck,

Justin

pinching toes, now you know why I started to answer your post twice, and ended up erasing it both times. Justin usually has the

proper perspective on these type of questions. His last two sentences were especially thought provoking. The government is really

good at losing money. Compared to them, we're a bunch of amateurs.

HD wild life, Predators are very lucrative in our area yes. My boss has contacted supervisors yes.

"Thursday, January 15, 2015 marks the 60th Anniversary of the issuance of Bureau of the Budget Bulletin 55-4, in which the Eisenhower Administration established policy that the "government will not start or carry on any commercial activity to provide a service or product for its own use if such product or service can be procured from private enterprise through ordinary business channels."

This is what was cited to them and they where VERY NICE and understood our plight. The county, once he brought the issue up seemed to be willing to talk about defundeing it and taking the responsiblity of the burden off the tax payers back and puting it on the private ranchers.

Maybe this should be handeled in Pms only but im very upset as i have had to lay off 2 techs right after christmas due to losing another big job.

In closing I very much apprecaite your advice and i have already done everything you asked. Im just woundering if any one else has dealt with this and had succsess?

I very much respect the people of APHIS WS and think what they are doing is very important. I just dont think they should be able to offer something to a private business for free( pay for with tax dollars) when there are private small business's that ccan be doing it. It goes back to goverment being way to big for its britches to me!

Say my truck breaks down and i want to have it fixed. I go to charlies auto repair and he says $350 to fix it. Should i be able to take it to a govermant grage and say fixer for free?


If i want my drive way sterlized for weeds do i not thave to call up Joes aplication service? Why not just let me call up the raod crew and say spray away boys?


Agian just looking to see If anyone else has ever dealt with it with sucsess?

thanks

In the meantime is there anything you have that can give you the competitive edge. Something that is important that the customer know that they should be using you instead of WS? Can you set more traps than they would, producing results in bulk? Or run your program longer? Can you combine it with a coyote hunting program around key areas that may help deter future coyotes?

I don't know much about coyote trapping but is don't think of it just in terms of money but value. Are you both providing the exact same service, or can you give them more?

Appreciate your response, I am genuinely sorry you've had to lay off two technicians directly related to competition for predator work in your area.

Having been all over eastern Oregon predator work seems like a hard way to make a living. I've known guys who ran their own lines for ranchers making say $100.00 a coyote, were doing what they felt was good but ultimately left for the security of other employment, some with WS.

Those rural counties and their tax base is highly tied to ranching from the local diner, to the tire shop to everyone in between. Ranchers and their families and the base of income and jobs as you know are all often tied in to livestock production and other associated ranch income. Getting a county to "defund" can happen and it has many times. I've seen counties that only funded a small portion of the work they considered important, while others left the program, came back, left again, came back...etc...

The post office is often brought up as one of those still doing the work that private can do (UPS, FEDEX, DHL, others...), when you look at the funds they expend to keep the post office up and running and losing money it is monumental compared to the budget of this outfit. Until the USPS cashes in its chips I don't think anyone will run the govt. out of the wildlife control business, unless it is on the end of a non profit groups move to end predator trapping/killing, which is the most likely to shut down their operations versus competition with us in private.

I know you are looking for others to assist in how to deal with this so I'll bow out of the thread now and leave it at that.

** One quick edit, I'm glad your boss did talk with them, I didn't expect they would or could turn that talk into walking away from a county, but I think it is important for industry to be vocal with their management over these concerns. If every state director or district supervisor was getting asked the same questions, they become more questions for the national director and deputy director and this is the only place true across the board changes can come from internally anyway.***

Throwback - A big part of why pinching toes has an issue is that this isn't competing against your neighbor up the street who has to put their own gas in their vehicle, pay for their own insurance, come up with all funding and time associated with the activity.

You are competing against an internally funded and co-op funded agency that has funds, that has additional resources (aircraft for aerial gunning), other tools and so on that ultimately allows them to not truly be competing with you, because they have the market cornered in many ways.

Not that private guys in the west don't do predator control work, they do of course and there are cases where ranchers decide they aren't getting enough out of the govt. so they hire local trappers/hunters to come in and pay them, but it isn't as often as many guys who want to do this work would like.

So for any operator to get an advantage is tough when financially they are covered and you are not as an individual... Just wanted to add this, it isn't anything anyone in a govt. agency like this doesn't know, and it definitely isn't a fair playing field, and it would be nice if someone would come up with a better way to integrate private while modifying the mission or goals of the existing agency.

Okay, now I'm out...

Pinching toes,

As WS evolves they are becoming more versed in politics than actual wildlife control skills.

It will get easier as time goes on for competent private wildlife control people to out perform them on the ground solving wildlife issues. They have lost a lot of ground already in the Willamette valley due to poor performance.

They may have lots of resources, but if they cant actually solve the issues the people suffering the losses are going to hire someone. Just be sure you are there when that happens.

I heard a saying about them this year in regards to this Willamette valley issue, "their free and worth every penny of it". Lol

It's the politics that will kill you.

In almost all areas WS has managed to exempt themselves from state regulation through MOUs and other back room deals. When an individual sets out to right this wrong there is often retribution. Surprisingly not from WS but from the politically connected that benefit from WS.

In my own case, I sought to expose the illegality of WS in Georgia. Yet before I could even file the open records request to obtain the MOUs I started getting calls out of the blue explaining just what would happen to my business if I continued my efforts. Needless to say without industry support I decided I'm not the lone ranger.

I hope you understand that many (NWCOA) talk a good game but are full of guano.

I definitely know you to have better things to do than make up stories so that is crazy David! Who were these folks? Politicians?

In your case are we talking folks related to beaver programs for county roads? Just nuts that someone would be calling and threatening you.

Justin, the calls believe it or not came from inside my own DNR!

Actually it was from a trusted friend that I have worked with extensively in the past on various projects mostly for the betterment of the industry. By this time this person was already on the out and their career path had ended for this effort. Basically protected by civil service but relegated to Georgia's version of Siberia until retirement.

I was told in no uncertain terms chapter and verse with names exactly who, how and what would happen the day I showed up in Social Circle copier and copy paper in hand requesting what is my right to know under Georgia Open Records Act. Basically, expect to pony up a few grand at such much per page and labor to provide such pages (legal to do so under GORA) under the load of meaningless paper in the hope I exhaust every possible tangentially connection to the actual paper I sought. "Oh, you meant that MOU"
Meanwhile, my name and license number (both trapping and driving) would get the full court press from the full power and might of DNR law enforcement and if so much as one misstep were found I could say good bye to ever trapping another nuisance animal in Georgia for the rest of eternity. We are after all a "may issue" permit system here. It was also intimated that I was already known as were my associates within the industry.

This person, I truly believe, was not calling to threaten as I am fully convinced shared my convictions as they were somewhat of an anti in many ways, but honestly concerned for my well being and that I remain in the industry.

BTW, guys you do realize that this forum and social media are monitored don't you?

Justin, to give you an idea of politics. In Georgia the DNR answer directly to a civilian commission appointed by the Governor, they have zero direct authority independent of the commission.
The person I mention was in a position to monitor our industry. I saw with my own eyes "the book" that was being compiled on a major player in the southeastern market. Then one day out of the blue this person was gone, as was "the book". Well the only copy that mattered if it ever did as the players changed and that outfit is now owned by one of the nationals.

Not with my tin foil hat on they won't!

Wow that is crazy David. I get what you mean about hearing about this from the person calling to essentially warn you of the tactics that would take place within the state.

(I also agree this site is checked by various folks, I've had people from here find threads and talk to others they didn't realize were friends of mine alerting me to me being monitored if you will - not govt. folks but AR.

I've heard you scenario there is a horse of a different color...

Thanks for sharing!

Also consider the budgets of our various DNRs. We all know how short there are of funds. The hunters fund hunting and fisher folk the fishing but who funds non game and covers any shortfall?

Look it up and it will surprise you just how much traces back to Federal monies. You ever wonder if the USDA "puts in a good word" on some of it?

I know it does as I've had several biologists tell me point blank that many if not most non game, threatened species or other special pet projects would go unfunded were it not for federal monies through USDA and USFW.

Any wonder WS gets carte blanche exemptions?

This is why I believe absolutely nothing will ever be accomplished by the individual operator tilting at windmills. Call me a cynic but remember this, Alan Merrifield beat the state of California but still had to sell his business.

Only an outside industry wide organization or a class action has a hope of moving the ball. We already seen the "industry wide organization" sit down and break bread with WS so where does that leave us?

The non game funds working definitely come through mostly USFWS. In our state for example the program is called "share with wildlife" that does the vast majority of research and work with non-game species. There are cost share programs too where feds match, but definitely from USFWS.

When it comes to USDA if we are talking USFS branch of USDA they definitely fund outside work for non-game, while they are also funded as is the USFWS to do their own work in house (environmental surveys, NEPA, etc...), same goes for BLM and other land management agencies.

On the USDA APHIS end of things, funding comes in but definitely doesn't go out to outside sources like DNR or G&F. When I worked for USDA/APHIS/WS/NWRC (national wildlife research center) we had external funding for research projects in my case for wildlife disease. Often state agencies had their own funding from either a federal source or some health agency source or their own state dept. of ag to work on other aspects of what we were working on.

In our private company we perform consulting, surveys, and other work and look for opportunities to get funded. Pretty much 100% of the funds come through the USFWS channel or USFS channel for the contracts written.

Ultimately too what matters in trying to work on the competition issue a private business faces from the govt. does come down to politics and the people.

If the particular person in a seat in WS for example isn't looked upon favorably by the DNR personnel, it can hinder them taking work from you. If however they have a great relationship and feel confident in them, obviously things roll the other way.

I think your answer about one individual "tilting at windmills" is as solidly as it can be put. One voice generally won't cut it and there really isn't a strong enough industry voice, which leaves folks to work in their own state within their own ranks if they want to try to make a run at it politically. Nationally the visibility isn't there and the views are different depending on what you make your living on.

My own former boss here in NM is a big fan of sending people to talk to the private companies about anything he knows they do, in an attempt to truly avoid this issue. Not all are like him, but there are more and more, if you think about it, what makes the best in any job is not having additional strife and stress. Who wants folks at your door complaining if you can avoid it by making sure they are being reached by the public wherever possible?

I think you helped answer pinching toes question in regard to what you personally faced. Thanks for sharing what you are seeing. Agency politics in all forms of agencies can muddy waters in a hurry and this issue has had some time to brew so I think it is muddy enough already with no sign of clearing...

Best,

Justin

Justin, I honestly think I could have gotten further had I the time and wherewithal to camp out at DNR headquarters and become their best buddy but that just ain't me.