Forget who it was that I had a discussion with about Airborne Rabies Virus.

As I understand it, Skunks are gregarious and like to den up in bunches and tend to move around a lot and spend the night in different dens. They can't be biting each other that much, so how does Rabies spread so fast and far with them, and the same with Bat's?

Bigbob,

In terms of the question as you posed it, its a bit wide open to answer thoroughly, but will try to hit a couple of points I think may lean most toward what you are asking.

First - skunks and rabies - definitely as you put it they are prone to denning in clusters often with multiple skunks in one den site.

As you are asking about them and how you can't picture them biting each other enough to be spreading the virus via bite, in my personal experience with skunks, seeing how litters behave, and how subadults and even adults behave when in close proximity biting and fighting can definitely occur frequently. Add to that mating activity and behavior and your contact rates are going up even more. Now add in people feeding all the cats, skunks and raccoon in their backyard at one bowl and all that saliva in one place. More than ample ways for the virus to get into others in the same population and of course in late stages when we may see aggression and they are shedding via infected salivary glands, you now would have a skunk who with every nip and bite breaking skin can transmit to others it is denned with, sharing space with, or territory with until they die.

I'll answer the other part of your question in this section and the section below related to your bat question.

"how does rabies spread so fast and far with them..."

I guess first I'd ask you a bit about the fast part. What do you consider a fast spread? Does this relate to living in an area and hearing about multiple cases on the news or from folks around your area or in the field? Skunks along with raccoon hold down the highest percentage rates in terms of North American wildlife vectors for rabies, but "speed" is really truly based on how quickly the virus can find a new host, via being passed from the existing host through bites in the late stages...

Factors (not a comprehensive list but for example...) include things like:

- density of host species in area
- concentration of food sources or shelter (den sites)

If you think about any virus in our own population, do we risk getting it and transmitting it more if we are in contact with massive numbers of folks or if we are out off grid living on a mountain with no other human contact?

So in an area with say (just for example, not reality) 2 skunks per square mile, we could see far slower and less spread of a disease like rabies, or distemper, then we would likely if we were in a dense area with 20+ skunks per square mile, or other hosts like raccoon and fox who can add to the mix and keep it going.

So to me speed of any transmission of a disease is going to be based upon what it needs to spread and those factors determine speed and it is very relative to those factors, not just simply rabies spreads fast or slow, technically it has to have the right conditions to move quickly.

****

Bats - Bat rabies isn't known to spread quickly and there are reasons for that as well. While our terrestrial species walk around in late stages slobbering and foaming at the mouth and nipping at all kinds of people and animals, bats ultimately in late stages lose their motor skills and end up down on the ground.

Now imagine you are down on the ground and fell away from the colony you belong to before you bit the guy next to you, again you are limiting transmission via eliminating or severely limiting contact rates.

Many bats have antibodies that show up even in young pups which shows many have been exposed to rabies via nursing (there have been publications recent years on this in a couple of species).

Bat rabies is one we treat as being ubiquitous to North America anywhere there are bats, though species will differ in terms of percentage of rabies in studies.

The actual field studies of rabies in wild bat colonies across our country show bats run a relatively low population percentage of less than 1/2 of 1%.

That is insanely low, but sadly bats remain up high on the list mostly because if you line up a raccoon, fox, skunk and a bat, there is only one most homeowners, kids and people will pick up without gloves on, or at all.... The bat!

Though CDC allows for possible bites and a list of conditions if a bat is found in a home, ultimately our bat rabies issues in this country come from people picking up bats nearly 100% of the time.

Bat rabies is always out there moving in the population at a low level, but ultimately that relates to your "fast and far" question, technically bat rabies is considered across our landscape, and most bat rabies is going to be spread in a roost between members of a colony, not a bat who gets it, flies off 300 miles and goes and finds another bat to bite and spread the virus.

Bats are known to get the paralytic form of rabies more than any other display, they get "dumb" and sit eyes glazed, often wings fixed, and if they bite anything it is usually the ground beneath them which is why many researchers in the field have found bats with mouthfuls of dirt from this end of life neuro behavior.

So I would say bats do not spread rabies far or fast, but there may be times of year where more bats die of rabies then others, this may be seen during reproduction when there are an influx of pups who would have less immune function and antibodies then adults do, there is also some recent information on rabies ultimately impacting bats more as they are in hibernation where their immune systems are down allowing the virus to proliferate and become active taking them out as they emerge in spring, etc...

***

Not sure I hit the points you were asking spot on, but hope maybe so? I work with bats more than any other species, but skunks are a close second. I live in an area where the last skunk or raccoon that was positive for rabies was almost 40+ years ago, though go 100 miles any direction and you find it is there and working its way through populations of terrestrial wildlife. Bat wise I've dealt with municipal and other bat injury or finding calls for many years now and out of hundreds of bats that were "down" and people reported as "sick" and thought rabid, factually only 1 bat did we lose and it had incredibly classic signs of rabies upon arriving at the house to investigate.

***

Terrible disease, certainly one of natures population controls along with the myriad of other things like predation and so forth.

Curious what sparked your question in terms of "fast and far" today?

Justin

Bats and rabies. A good video: https://youtu.be/Jz4BWkAiGF0

While I don't work with bats, or really have any interest in them, I do spend a lot of time with skunks.

First, I assume rabies is spread by contact with bodily fluids. If that is true, the question becomes which fluids. Saliva is the most obvious. In a communal den, any animal that is coughing or sneezing will be putting fluids into the air, a potential source of transmission. I have noticed that skunks spend quite a bit of time grooming, both themselves and their young. Another source of potential transmission.

Now I don't know if skunk essence carries the virus but I do know that skunks are far more likely to spray each other than bite, and usually right in the face. I've seen litter mates spraying while playing, females spraying to drive off a male and males spraying each other competing for breeding rights. All possible sources of transmission.

Another potential source of infection comes by their habit of eating carrion. When an animal in the wild dies of rabies, other animals, including skunks, are going to come along and consume the carcass.

All in all, if there is rabies around a skunk will find it.

HD: Thanks for the thoughtful explanation.
sgs: Some good points there about carrion.
DaveK: I'll have to watch that video. thanks.

Again I'm sorry I forgot who it was that climbed up my butt after I posted that according to the MTA Trappers Guide that Rabies seems to have an airborne component, which as sgs points out, the sneezing, coughing, urine, and probably feces thing puts the Virus in the air to be spread. He said he's done extensive research on the CDC website that shows it doesn't. I'm kinda confused, and it kinda gnaws on my brain.

Anybody else want to kick in an observation/opinion?

BigBob,

That would be me who "climbed up..." as you put it, though I guess I was hoping it was providing you the scientific answers not found within the NTA (national trappers association) handbook.

A disclaimer here would be that while I would love to get you interested in looking in scientific publications from the CDC and from peer reviewed literature that the medical community uses
for wildlife disease risks and the history and transmission ability of things like rabies, I'm more interested in making sure that any "newbies" to our industry won't find a post on airborne rabies
and just run with it as fact when it doesn't have a basis in fact according to the highest authorities we have in the country and the world on the subject.

This isn't about my knowledge to be clear, yes I've done rabies surveillance projects, have spoken and met with CDC rabies scientists both at CDC and elsewhere, but ultimately I'm just trying to
encourage you and anyone else interested in the real truth about how rabies is transmitted by any of our North American wildlife vectors (skunk, raccoon, fox, bat) to find some actual hard science
sources for the info, which with all due respect to the NTA manual (which I own) isn't one.

I'm not sure why they decided back then when writing it to suggest you may kneel down in front of a skunk den entrance and could contract airborne rabies virus, but as I said at length and ad nauseum
to most reading I'm sure, just imagine all the service professionals who enter crawl spaces and work beneath homes where skunk, raccoon are denning, or attics where bats are roosting, how do we have
zero cases of proven airborne transmission?

The one case constantly put up by those interested in suggesting this route, yourself included, is the case of the two TX researchers working in the caves who contracted rabies and never admitted they were bitten.

The facts of that case the CDC possesses and they clearly show those two men handled over 1,000 bats during their research, which is the clean line of logical transmission via bite during handling, especially back then
when less was known and researchers were more lazy about their handling, whereas now, if you do bat research as a student or professor or govt. employee you are required to have rabies pre exposure and get post exposure
if you are bitten while handling.

****

Factually rabies is transmitted when a host animal in this case a skunk or a bat in your questions, has progressed long enough in the stages of the virus that the salivary glands are swollen and now that animal is considered to be
actively shedding virus in that saliva.

Urine has never ever tested positive for rabies and while North America does lots of research, we don't hold a candle to the rabies work done around the globe even by our own CDC and WHO and others. Rabies is far more lethal in 3rd world
countries and thus this virus has been studied and studied in labs, in the field, in trials with live wildlife and domestics in lab scenarios where they literally give the animals rabies and watch what happens.

This isn't some new emerging virus with little known, rabies goes back to the Greeks historically and it has been studied over time and has ample information known about how people contract it.

****

I suppose in the end I'm wondering why this actually gnaws at you. Do you know someone who has died due to aerosol transmission, or do you believe this is a risk more people should believe in within our industry?

I'm sure you know being in the industry but probably 80% or more operators do not wear any respirator when working with rabies vectors, whether crawling in crawl spaces, or working in attics.

You can go on youtube right now and find current video postings there and on facebook where operators are handling bats and other wildlife vectors with no gloves, no respirator, no PPE at all, so heck, aren't we worrying
about something that would have already resulted in massive fatalities?

I guess I just like scientific information when it comes to disease. I know it is human nature to second guess any initial source of information if we think otherwise, and people second guess their doctors about serious conditions,
lawyers and other professionals from mechanics to builders, and so on, believing they know better, so not an anomaly to think different than what someone else does.

Just sayin, maybe you want to look for a second or third source to validate telling folks airborne rabies from skunks or bats is a true threat. There are tons of sources you could use, all have to pass scrutiny by panels of people before
publishing.

I don't have an issue at all to be clear with you having this personal thought that this is a real threat, I was just hoping maybe you'd not use the NTA handbook for your rabies virus transmission information. Their statement about the trapper could inhale rabies outside a den hole would mean every year thousands and thousands of plumbers, electricians, nuisance wildlife operators and anyone else going into crawlspaces or kneeling near a hole should be dead and on the news....

I will say this for you though, I don't feel it is a negative to be extra cautious about potential risk of wildlife disease in our field. So if someone takes extra precautions because of your statement, maybe they won't inhale hantavirus when working in a dusty space, or contract histoplasmosis or something else.

SGS isn't incorrect of course with grooming, imagine if you are lumped in with 4 other skunks and exchange some nips and some short bouts and ultimately you groom immediately after one of those altercations before the virus dies, then yes maybe, but the rabies virus though scary and lethal, is a complete wimp when outside the warm host. It lives a very short period of time, especially if warm conditions exist.

Since the virus travels to the brain tissue and into salivary glands the carrion and again sharing a carcass in real time is a good way to spread it, scent glands aren't a route of movement of the virus through the body which has been studied extensively, though I would guarantee in any case where any foreign fluid got on you and the skunk was actually rabid via testing, you may get shots since many doctors do not actually know all the true routes of transmission and liability ain't a cheap word in our country!

Lots of rabies comes on in the spring and you can connect lots of mating activity and close proximity and interaction to that easy enough.

Its always out there, but so are healthy populations of these species as well.

So many facts with rabies are well known and published and again lab and field studied to death.

Sorry for "crawlin up your butt" ha!!! Lol!

Everyone has their passionate subject they just can't let slide, this would be one for me, though I'm not a paid skunk or bat spokesperson or outreach coordinator!



******

P.S. Anyone can call the CDC and talk to the folks in the rabies lab, doctors who literally spend their life's work on this one virus around the globe. If you truly want to
put it to bed, give them a holler and ask about airborne rabies and the skunk den kneeling pad trapper scenario.

Best,

Justin

Justin, are you saying that saliva is the only bodily fluid known to contain the virus?

Morning SGS - Yes sir. Here is the language and link on CDC:


"What materials can spread rabies?

Rabies virus is transmitted through saliva and brain/nervous system tissue.
Only these specific bodily excretions and tissues transmit rabies virus.
If contact with either of these has occurred, the type of exposure should be evaluated to determine if postexposure prophylaxis is necessary.

Contact such as petting or handling an animal, or contact with blood, urine or feces does not constitute an exposure.
No postexposure prophylaxis is needed in these situations.

Rabies virus becomes noninfectious when it dries out and when it is exposed to sunlight.
Different environmental conditions affect the rate at which the virus becomes inactive, but in general, if the material containing the virus is dry, the virus can be considered noninfectious."

The link to that info:

https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/exposure/materials.html

***

Best,

Justin

Thank you.

So I'll take essence off the list. lol

What are your thoughts on carcasses? Are there any estimates on how long a carcass could remain infectious?

You bet! It would be a big deal for certain on top of the insulting odor if they also transmitted virus that way! No bueno!

There aren't true hard lines for exactly how long folks would say it is truly dead in a carcass,

"Rabies virus does not survive for long periods in the environment and is easily destroyed by soap and water or common household disinfectants.
Once saliva is dried, it is no longer considered infectious. The virus also is readily destroyed by bleach, ultraviolet light, and/ or heat.
Live rabies virus will not survive for more than 24 hours in dead animals when temperatures reach 70 degrees F.
However, the virus will survive for extended periods at low or freezing temperatures."

Most of the surveillance I organized when I was still a fed was either live animal capture where blood samples were taken and other biological samples
while under chemical immobilization, but I did coordinate a few roadkill survey designs out here where basically if during non winter months we considered a carcass not viable for using the brain sample as rabies surveillance if more than even an hour or two old in typical NM heat.

That excerpt above is from a KS veterinary extension publication, there are many references to how long it may live but they all give longer times for colder or freezing temps, which is similar to other viruses I've worked with. Working with feral hogs and disease work, we looked at water holes and places where hogs could leave infected fluids for non rabies type diseases, brucellosis, etc... and temp at those sites and humidity was a limiting factor outside of water holes where most viruses and bacteria and parasites can last far longer than on our arid rangelands.

Interesting. Up here in the northeast we can easily go 5 months or more with the temps. never hitting 70*. I guess that could become a factor in dead skunk calls.

Though I've broken this rule plenty, if folks truly want to be "safe" and follow a good protocol as a wildlife control business, utilizing nitrile gloves or a physical barrier while bagging a dead animal is a good rule of thumb.

Or if possible use the bag itself inside out and gloves and you should be able to cover and tie and carry off for disposal without touching any potential fluids.

The long potential life in colder temps in a dead animal would still require contact with certain fluids and though humidity may be greater under a home or in an attic during winter months, saliva should still dry up to a point.

Safe is always better than sorry, but folks get set in their ways and as you know of course with so many trappers, hunters and fisherman in this field, gloves aren't typical of how most would treat a carcass unless completely "foul" or in decomp...

I like to flip the bag inside out myself, grab the dead skunk or raccoon with that and flip back tying the bag off without any contact, not always possible, but a good way to go!

I'm kind of surprised that you say gloves aren't typical sop. I never touch an animal without wearing gloves. Heck, I don't even like handling my traps without gloves until they've been power washed.

I also use the inverted bag for carcasses.

The extended life of the virus in cold weather is just something for guys to think about.

I suppose a true poll of operators would be necessary for "real numbers" but having been around more than my share of trappers through the years, let alone training folks in govt. work who grew up where gloves weren't even available in most areas, I expect many are still not using any.

Darn word "inverted" wasn't coming to me in my description of "flipping" the bag! Lol! Thats the one!!

Definitely worth guys and gals considering any/all things we handle.

Over cautious is rarely a bad thing whether on a roof, or handling dead or live animals.