Land Trapping Archive


No Profanity *** No Flaming *** No Advertising *** No Anti Trappers *** No Politics
No Non-Target Catches *** No Links to Anti-trapping Sites *** No Avoiding Profanity Filter


Home~Trap Talk~ADC Forum~Trap Shed~Wilderness Trapping~International Trappers~Fur Handling

Auction Forum~Trapper Tips~Links~Gallery~Basic Sets~Convention Calendar~Chat~ Trap Collecting Forum

Trapper's Humor~Strictly Trapping~Fur Buyers Directory~Mugshots~Fur Sale Directory~Wildcrafting

Trapper's Tales~Words From The Past~Legends~Archives~Kids Forum~Lure Formulators Forum


~Catalog~

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
Hop to:
#5877228 - 04/15/17 07:07 AM Jack Whitman
17hornet Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Central PA
I've read snippets about his career as a government trapper on various sites but haven't been able to find any real info on his work online anywhere; is there anything out there that I can read about this man and his career? or do stories about him get told more orally as opposed to in writing.

I hear that he was and still is an extremely successful wolf trapper and I'm just interested in learning more.

Thanks

Top
#5877241 - 04/15/17 07:52 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
yodeldog101 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 4958
Loc: Mt
Jack taught or wolf class here in Mt. I know he spent 27 yrs in Ak.doing wolf control. He is the real deal.
_________________________
Member NTA MTA NRA We live back in the woods ya see...my woman and the kids and the dogs and me....

Top
#5877255 - 04/15/17 08:04 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Randy Shuff Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 61
Loc: Idaho
Jack is my neighbor and good friend. He just published a fiction book called The Last Hunt. It is a very good read. He is going to Mongolia this spring to collar some of their wolves.

Top
#5877362 - 04/15/17 11:34 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
wissmiss Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 10786
Loc: north Idaho
He is originally from McCall, Idaho. I knew him when he went to school at the University of Idaho. I don't remember the years but it was quite some time ago!!

White17 probably has some great stories about him.
_________________________
www.usedtraps.com


Top
#5877373 - 04/15/17 11:59 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 4320
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin

MTP carries the Jack Whitman setup on their 750 AK .
Here's a pic of Jack when he did a certification course in Helena .
He noted classes aren't a how to course as much as they are about ethics , rules and responsibilitiy.
_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

Top
#5877438 - 04/15/17 01:38 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Jack is without a doubt the most inquisitive mind I have ever met. He is interested in everything in the natural world.

A superb biologist. Meticulous and knowledgeable but open minded about all other ideas and points of view. A heck of a trapper....not just wolves...and writer. He has written poetry, a short novel mentioned above..and reams of scholarly literature.

He spent a year trapping tigers in the Russian far east with foot snares. Then he devised a method to anesthetize them with a blow gun from 30 feet because the standard 'gun' used to deliver the dart did too much muscle damage to the animal.

He has worked on raptors, sheep, wolves, bears, swans and wrote the main chapter on mink in Wild Furbearer Management in North America.

I have been privileged to work with him, share more than one hangover with him, and make home made music with him on several occasions. He is a talented and humble man. He has always been a great friend and teacher.

_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5877479 - 04/15/17 02:26 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Tactical.20 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 10363
Loc: N.W. Iowa
interesting, glad I saw this post

Top
#5877493 - 04/15/17 02:38 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
wissmiss Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 10786
Loc: north Idaho
In addition to being a top notch trapper, his skill with a needle and thread is amazing.
_________________________
www.usedtraps.com


Top
#5877496 - 04/15/17 02:41 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Tell us a story Nancy !! laugh
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5877514 - 04/15/17 03:24 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
wissmiss Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 10786
Loc: north Idaho
I will some time, maybe later on today. Much too nice outside to be on Tman.
_________________________
www.usedtraps.com


Top
#5877698 - 04/15/17 08:33 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Okay, trappers (the finest group of bipeds in the world). I've been extremely quiet for a couple of years. Been busy. Good buddy of mine (Randy Shuff) calls this morning, and tells me I'd better open up the forum and take notice. Apparently someone is looking for me (I'm hoping it has nothing to do with any of my ex-wives). So, I get out of my long-standing rut and try to log in to Trapperman. Well, not too many moons ago, I was diagnosed with Stage-3 CRS, so I need to get ahold of White 17 and get a new password. Despite a reasonably-long power outage at my homestead (pretty common), I get in touch, and he zips me another password. Thus, here I am.

My trapline produced very little this year, but I opened (this morning) my fur check from the FHA sale in Helsinki. Holy-Moly! I've apparently got enough to bribe White 17, WissMiss, and Randy Shuff to say good things about me on the thread. I did so, and my $2.42 average on muskrats is now kaput. Maybe I'll have to sell both coyotes I caught this year to cover the bribes.

Anyway, 17Hornet, hit me with a PM and I'll try to help. Contrary to popular opinion (or optimism), I'm still on the upside of the dirt, and I'd be honored to assist in any way I can (unless you do, in fact, work for one of my ex'es). Again, contrary to the hype you see on this thread, I am certainly not a master wolfer. Yeah, I been at it for several decades and I luck into a wolf now and then, but compared with the real wolfers in Alaska, I'm an admitted sophomore. However, I'll be glad to help where I can.

Hit me man! And Shuffy, White 17, and WissMiss, a heartfelt thanks for the vote of (perhaps misplaced) confidence.

Top
#5877705 - 04/15/17 08:39 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
As I said...............humble !
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5877788 - 04/15/17 09:54 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
decoy Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 1123
Loc: north Idaho
White don't forget about the house building project. Humble? should have been at the 1st wolf class here in Idaho, poor Toby couldn't get a word in edge wise grin
_________________________
Hunt with your Kids, not for them.
>>>----->


Top
#5877795 - 04/15/17 09:57 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
LOL !!! Toby isn't real verbose anyway !! He ( Toby) is also a heck of a biologist !!!


He and I will be murdering turkeys in Idaho in a couple of weeks !!
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5877832 - 04/15/17 10:36 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
4TATER Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 181
Loc: DILLON,MT
It's been awhile since I have stopped in for a visit with Jack. His adventures and stories of Russia, Alaska and Idaho are truly awesome. It's always interesting to see which direction our visits take us. From trapping and hunting, to gardening and chickens and usually White17 enters the conversation. I am very glad our paths crossed and that I can call him a friend.

Top
#5877849 - 04/15/17 10:51 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 4320
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin

Jack it would be nice to have you feild some questions on wolf trapping .
_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

Top
#5877858 - 04/15/17 11:00 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Rivers: ask the questions. I am sure Jack will give you his experience and probably ask questions that make you think. He isn't into keeping secrets.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5877866 - 04/15/17 11:17 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 4320
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin
Jack here in Wisconsin we were limited to a 7" outside jaw spread which keep most of the true wolf traps out of reach here.
What would you be using in that situation ?

Also when we had a season it started in the middle of October, what would be your setup at this time of year ?

Thanks Riversnorth13
_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

Top
#5878023 - 04/16/17 08:40 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Rivers!
I've never trapped in a jurisdiction that disallowed the larger traps, so have never really had to contend with that situation. In my opinion, there are a variety of suitable wolf traps on the market, but for conditions under which I trap wolves down here in the lowest-48, I prefer the MB-750AK (and I get no kickbacks from MTP). Certainly, the conditions change as you move north, and in many situations, something other than the 750 is certainly warranted.

But back to your question. Because of the way the 750 is built, along with the way they've treated me in years past (excellent service; above-and-beyond), I'd certainly look real close at the MB650. Too, I'd prefer the off-set, laminated jaws. In addition, where conditions permit, I'd strongly prefer to set up for wolves with a drag rather than hard-wiring. I've noted many times that most wolves, when earth-anchored to a particular spot, really fight the trap. If they're set up with a drag and can get themselves into a concealed location, they seem to fight the trap a lot less, with less chance of a pull-out and less damage to the foot or the pelt.

That help with your question?

Top
#5878036 - 04/16/17 08:46 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 4TATER]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Tater!
I'm really missing our mornin' cup of coffee and meandering discussions. When you heading over here to the dark side? Always welcome...

Top
#5878056 - 04/16/17 09:14 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
4TATER Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 181
Loc: DILLON,MT
I might get that way this next week, I'll give a call before I head over the hill. Happy Easter to ya!

Top
#5878068 - 04/16/17 09:27 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
jwill Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 553
Loc: wyoming
Jack, just curious if you have done much work with Carter Niemeyer. I knew him a bit when he lived in Helena. I know he was worked with the reintroducion aspect of the wolf. I had heard he is somewhat anti now? Is that correct or just a rumor.
_________________________
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement!

Top
#5878114 - 04/16/17 10:10 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Pete in Frbks Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 2766
Loc: Fairbanks, Alaska
Let me put to rest the rumor that Jack walks on water (other than seasonally...)

A "few" years ago (I retired in 04 and it was WAY before that,) he came into my office at DNR with some questions regarding Personal Use Wood Cutting permits. It was September and he mentioned that he had seen a young bull moose just west of Rosie Creek while he was in the woods a day prior. But, he said, since it was in the "Rosie Creek drainage," unfortunately it was within the Fairbanks Management Area and thus off limits for a rifle hunter (bow only in FMA.)

I (helpfully) reminded Jack that the western boundary of the FMA was Rosie Creek itself, NOT the western extent of the Rosie Creek drainage!

He had passed up a sure-thing opportunity to shoot a perfectly legal, "just the right size" eater moose that you could drive to with a pickup because the regs were complicated and he did not have the reg book with him and couldn't check the mgt area boundaries!

Without invoking Jack's name, I told this story at a couple of Board of Game meetings as an example of when the regulations are not clear to ADFG employees, maybe they are not clear enough for hunters and the general public.

And Jack probably thought I had forgotten!

Pete

Top
#5878152 - 04/16/17 10:46 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Pete in Frbks]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Jeez, Pete. A memory like an MB-750. But I've got to tell the rest of the story. If you'll remember, I already had a moose that year. It was my lovely bride that wanted to tip over that little mulligan. However, you are certainly correct that I was forever confused about certain regulations. Too bad we can't go back to the days when the regulations made sense: 1) you had to have a license; and 2) no more than 2 moose per year.

Top
#5878154 - 04/16/17 10:51 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: jwill]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Simply put, YES. In my opinion, because of some recent dealings with Carter, he's over on the dark side. I've actually never met him face-to-face, and would probably walk the other way if I had the chance. On the other hand, I've heard from others that he was, in his former life, a pretty good hand at wolfing.

Top
#5878157 - 04/16/17 10:58 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 4320
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin
Jack
Thanks for the info on trap selection , what do you consider the best sets for October when our season has started before?
Our quota is usually filled in 2 weeks .
_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

Top
#5878183 - 04/16/17 11:27 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: RiversNorth13]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Rivers...
First off, in October/November, lots of fairly small, naive pups running around. With a quota system in place, I'd certainly try for the yearlings or adults rather than pups. On all my sets that early, I'd first bump up the pan pressure to at least 12-14 pounds, trying to avoid pups.
At all times of year, not just early season, I think it prudent to mix up the sets I give to wolves. That is, don't make dirt-hole after dirt-hole after dirt-hole. Mix up dirt-holes (or snow-holes), flat sets, and pee-posts. Too, important to give them a variety along a line in terms of lure. I never put more than one lure at any set. Give 'em a variety, including food-based lure, sex-based lure (gland, including urine), and curiosity lure. I've seen clear evidence (many times) where wolves will walk right by a food-based lure, never even giving it a sideways glance. Down the trail a half mile, however, the big dog will fall for a gland-based lure. Mix it up. My personal favorite in the early season? Simple dirt-hole with a subtle food-based lure. Remember to bump up that pan pressure, however.

Top
#5878191 - 04/16/17 11:48 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Jack, your thoughts on pre-baiting sets without a trap prior to season ??
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5878225 - 04/16/17 12:54 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
Pete in Frbks Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 2766
Loc: Fairbanks, Alaska
Originally Posted By: Gulo
Jeez, Pete. A memory like an MB-750. But I've got to tell the rest of the story. If you'll remember, I already had a moose that year. It was my lovely bride that wanted to tip over that little mulligan. However, you are certainly correct that I was forever confused about certain regulations. Too bad we can't go back to the days when the regulations made sense: 1) you had to have a license; and 2) no more than 2 moose per year.


Well, I remembered enough to make it interesting BS.....!

The whole time I was on the BOG, I featured a bumper sticker on my brief case that stated: "Simplify Game Regulations."

I tried to remember that every time we deliberated and voted. Other people, I guess, not so much!

Pete

Top
#5878234 - 04/16/17 01:06 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 4320
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin

Do mainly holes and pee posts here.
Uping the pan pressure sounds great for us that can only that 1 wolf a season also .

Ever though of writing a book on the subject ?

Thanks again
_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

Top
#5878236 - 04/16/17 01:08 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: white17]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
White17.
I'm a believer in pre-baiting for wolves. However, I don't use lure only, as there needs to be a reward involved (food) to encourage them to come back. I've got a system that I call "Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation" that works wonders. Now I know a lot of you purists are going to cringe at this one, but I'll stick my neck out there on the chopping block anyway. Go ahead, laugh. When I'm scouting a new area for wolves, I might drive 100 miles of back roads in a day, and I might do that 4-5 days in a row. I can't possibly run that much line, so I'll often stop and make dirt-hole sets (quick and easy; no need to take time to blend-in the set). I sift the dirt at the trap site, but only so I can read the tracks. I'm not putting in a trap at all. In the dirt-hole itself is a (cringe) half can of the cheapest, greasiest dogfood I can buy. However, it might be a week or more before I get back around, and it's easy to see which locations have had wolf activity, or activity from only coyotes, red foxes, mtn. lions, bobcats, etc. The wolves have hit a few of the pre-bait sites, and obviously, there was no down-side. They've been rewarded with a treat, and next time they're in the vicinity, they'll come by. Hopefully, you've got a factory-bent-up piece of steel waiting for them on their next pass.

Top
#5878244 - 04/16/17 01:25 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
"Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation" laugh I get it !!


Thanks !!
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5878247 - 04/16/17 01:32 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: white17]
Steven 49er Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 4469
Loc: mn north of blakely
"Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation"


Top
#5878327 - 04/16/17 03:41 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: white17]
trapr Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 1324
Loc: idaho falls idaho
Originally Posted By: white17
"Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation" laugh I get it !!


Thanks !!
Not sure if Jack was in the military,but I know you were.military guys are always coming up with a acronym for everything,maybe you can shorten that for us.

Top
#5878423 - 04/16/17 06:18 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
17hornet Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Central PA
Appreciate the response Mr. Whitman. Any chance you're going to publish a biography in the future? I'd love to hear/read about some of your adventures/stories from a lifetime on the trapline.

Top
#5878439 - 04/16/17 06:34 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
decoy Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 1123
Loc: north Idaho
Couple things still stand out in my mind at the class was you mentioned just bringing the trap up through a layer of wax while dyeing them and someone in the crowd said BS. Do you still think that is okay and also when you were making a dirt hole set you mentioned using mink lure.
Gosh it's nice having you back on site!
_________________________
Hunt with your Kids, not for them.
>>>----->


Top
#5878500 - 04/16/17 08:02 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: trapr]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: trapr
Originally Posted By: white17
"Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation" laugh I get it !!


Thanks !!
Not sure if Jack was in the military,but I know you were.military guys are always coming up with a acronym for everything,maybe you can shorten that for us.



Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5878513 - 04/16/17 08:16 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
wissmiss Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 10786
Loc: north Idaho
I thought ALPO was a brand of dog food................:)
_________________________
www.usedtraps.com


Top
#5878935 - 04/17/17 12:08 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: decoy]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: decoy
Couple things still stand out in my mind at the class was you mentioned just bringing the trap up through a layer of wax while dyeing them and someone in the crowd said BS. Do you still think that is okay and also when you were making a dirt hole set you mentioned using mink lure.
Gosh it's nice having you back on site!


Decoy,

Thanks for welcoming me back into the fray. It's good being back.

I've always been of the opinion that, if you're a waxer, the best is to use a vat that's 100% wax (I prefer 1/4 beeswax and 3/4 paraffin) rather than a layer of wax melted on top of water, and all that AFTER the dyeing process is complete. However, that can be quite a lot of wax, and its expensive. Thus, I know quite a few trappers that go the water/wax mixture simply to save on money. That said, it doesn't do quite as good a job as pure wax. For me, the dyeing process is totally separate from the waxing, and if I said that I do them concurrently, I mis-spoke. If you're trying to save money and floating the melted wax on top of boiling water, be careful to make certain that you leave the traps in the water for a period to get them very hot, because if you bring them up through the wax layer and they're relatively cool, you get globbed wax, pinto-covered traps, and thin/thick spots; all no good. Personally, I don't use wax on my wolf gear, unless I'm going to be trapping the shoulder seasons (spring or fall) where I'll be encountering freeze/thaw cycles. If you are a waxer, be super-careful about foreign odors. Wax (even the beeswax/paraffin combination) attracts, absorbs, and holds foreign odors, and, in my opinion, is extremely counterproductive for wolf traps.

I typically put out a wolf line using 3 different classes of lure. Food-based, sex-based (gland), and curiosity. For a curiosity lure, the best I've found is either mink or river otter gland lure. That being said, however, I'm always looking for new ideas. Educate me, man!

Top
#5878942 - 04/17/17 12:21 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Tactical.20 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 10363
Loc: N.W. Iowa
lol, nancy

Top
#5879546 - 04/18/17 05:20 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Glad I checked out this post....thank you Mr. Whitman for sharing your thoughts on wolves!
Could you share more thoughts on equipment...like foothold for the big cats....tigers and such?
Have you played with the LPC traps at all? And what are your experiences using snares on wolves?
I ask because there are several states using cable restraints on coyotes and having problems. Look forward hearing your take.

Top
#5879762 - 04/18/17 09:28 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Glad I checked out this post....thank you Mr. Whitman for sharing your thoughts on wolves!
Could you share more thoughts on equipment...like foothold for the big cats....tigers and such?
Have you played with the LPC traps at all? And what are your experiences using snares on wolves?
I ask because there are several states using cable restraints on coyotes and having problems. Look forward hearing your take.


MChewk,

I've not used footholds for the large cats. I trapped Amur tigers, Far Eastern leopards, (and quite a few Himalayan bears and brown bears) in foot snares. However, I have caught and held a number of mountain lions in MB-750-Alaskans. Just the size and power of a tiger would negate the use of all but the largest bear trap, and since I was trapping tigers in an effort to affix radio-collars and release them unharmed, I went to foot snares.

I have used the LPC traps fairly extensively, in many different jaw configurations. They are a well-made trap. I've not used them for several years now, and I would not go back to them for several reasons. 1) They are outrageously expensive. 2)With them being longsprings, it takes me too much time to dig a giant hole, then blend it back to "natural" for flat sets, blind sets, and pee-posts. 3) They don't have an adjustable pan, so bumping up my pan pressure to 12-15 pounds (to avoid catching pups and a multitude of nontargets) is basically impossible. 4) The longsprings seem to weaken rapidly, and need to be replaced periodically (again, very expensive).

I am a big fan of snares for wolves. I've pretty much settled on 7/64, 1x19 cable with cam-locks. Too, especially down here in the Lower-48, I'm a supporter of the use of both diverters and of cable-stops to diminish the catch of nontargets (moose and elk in particular). In using snares, however, there's nothing like good old common sense in how and where you set them for reducing the unwanted catch of ungulates. I am not a fan of cable-restraints and relaxing locks. If I can assure a quick-kill on a canid rather than having the thing bounce around in a "restraint" for another day, I'll go that route.

Hope these short comments were helpful.

Top
#5879775 - 04/18/17 09:44 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Thank you Sir....very informative.

Top
#5879791 - 04/18/17 10:05 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
2 TRAPS Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 3667
Loc: Bland Virginia
Great post. How do you treat your wolf gear. You said you didn't wax. Do you just dye your wolf traps. Have you ever used foot snares for wolves? If so what type and brand did you use?
_________________________
HMC Mfg.
B.E.K TRAP TAG

Top
#5879944 - 04/18/17 01:43 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 2 TRAPS]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: 2 TRAPS
Great post. How do you treat your wolf gear. You said you didn't wax. Do you just dye your wolf traps. Have you ever used foot snares for wolves? If so what type and brand did you use?


2 TRAPS,

I'm pretty old-school when it comes to trap preparation for wolves. I use logwood for the dyeing process. I use the brown rather than the more expensive black, and my traps are still basically black. Don't waste money on the black dye. For the first two years of a trap's life, I throw in a bit of logwood every time I cook the traps when I'm cleaning them. And, I clean them often. Each and every time they come out of the ground, whether they've caught something or not, they are re-boiled in clean water, a bit of baking soda, and a handful of logwood dye. I can't stress this cleanliness enough for wolves. Again, I will say that I do not like wax, except during the shoulder seasons.

I've never used foot snares for wolves, although I have incidentally caught a couple wolves around the hind foot in neck snares. The foot snares I've used extensively were the Aldrich-type, and they're certainly not conducive to being easily hid or submerged in dirt or snow. I think it's paramount with wolves to have everything (everything!) sub-surface where odors are less likely to be rampant. Can't do that with the Aldrich-type throw-springs on a foot snare. Sorry I can't be of more help on that question.

Top
#5879962 - 04/18/17 02:10 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
bob1454 Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 2011
Loc: ID
Great info Jack.
_________________________
SGT USMC 71-74
Member DAV,MTA,ITA,NRA

Top
#5880017 - 04/18/17 03:23 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: bob1454]
Mac Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1777
Loc: Maine
My gosh what a great thread!

Mac
_________________________



Top
#5880030 - 04/18/17 03:43 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Mac]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Bob, Mac, and others.

Thanks for the feedback. Anything I can do to help, please don't hesitate to ask.

Top
#5880031 - 04/18/17 03:46 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
wissmiss Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 10786
Loc: north Idaho
Can you sew up a bobcat pelt that has been sliced and diced in to 4-5 pieces??? smile
_________________________
www.usedtraps.com


Top
#5880085 - 04/18/17 04:55 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: wissmiss]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Don't get me started WissMiss. I clearly remember those agonizing hours with needle and thread, and it actually brings a chuckle to my ugly face. Those were the good ol' days, huh?

Top
#5880090 - 04/18/17 04:57 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
newhouse114 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2755
Loc: S.W.Oregon
That comment reminds me of when I hunted coyotes with a .308!
_________________________
Life Member NTA & FTA
"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain

http://alaskastoneanivory.com/index

Top
#5880107 - 04/18/17 05:22 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
wissmiss Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 10786
Loc: north Idaho
Those were the good, old, old, old days!!! Early 1980s, if I remember correctly.

The best part was, you made it work. Do you remember who the buyer was that bought all that thread? LOL
_________________________
www.usedtraps.com


Top
#5880158 - 04/18/17 06:10 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: wissmiss]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
I don't remember who bought the thread (and the little pieces of cat that were attached), WissMiss, but I do remember going through a lot of beeswax to lubricate the thread so it'd go through quicker, and when you use up 4.5 miles of thread it takes a lot of beeswax. Who was the buyer?

And no, you're being too nice. I was in Alaska in the "early 80s". I'm thinkin' it was about 1977 or 78.

Top
#5880159 - 04/18/17 06:13 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: newhouse114]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: newhouse114
That comment reminds me of when I hunted coyotes with a .308!


Yeah Newhouse, I remember when I thought my new Swift was goin' to be the ticket. That's when I really learned to sew. For yodel-dogs, I finally reverted back to my .222 Rem.

Top
#5880161 - 04/18/17 06:14 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
wissmiss Offline


Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 10786
Loc: north Idaho
I don't remember who the buyer was. I will check and see if Gary remembers. I thought it was one of the bigger names in the cat buying business. I'm quite sure it sold at an OTC sale.

Wow, that long ago?? Could have been. Those years were all a big blur. So much fur going through that building.
_________________________
www.usedtraps.com


Top
#5880165 - 04/18/17 06:29 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
andy weiser Offline
trapper

Registered: 06/17/13
Posts: 3394
Loc: montana
Great thread! Thank you Jack. Much appreciated.
_________________________
http://www.montanatrappingsupplies.com/

Top
#5880171 - 04/18/17 06:33 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Great thread, Jack, if you could only use one set type and Lure type for wolves, what would they be? Thanks in advance
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5880288 - 04/18/17 07:55 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: trappergbus]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: trappergbus
Great thread, Jack, if you could only use one set type and Lure type for wolves, what would they be? Thanks in advance


Trappergbus...

Man, that's like skinnsing an old gristle-necked boar badger; it's a tough one.

I use mostly dirt hole/snow hole sets. However, one of the reasons (there are many) that I use only one type of lure at any given set, is that I keep detailed (anal-retentive) notes on what works and what doesn't. When I look at the years of accumulated data, it's clear that the pee-posts (with nothing but urine) are the clear winners in terms of number of trapnights per catch (Yeah, surprised me as well). A relatively close second is dirt-holes with curiosity lure.

Now, let me digress a bit into "the twilight zone". I've been chasing wolves quite a few years. I'm also (I gotta face it) a bit weird, perhaps, when it comes to details about wolves and how they live. One thing I noticed many years ago was that domestic dogs, as well as wolves and coyotes, have a tendency to defecate/urinate with the long axis of their bodies along a north-south or south-north coordinate (within +/- 5 degrees). Not east-west (or west-east). A couple years ago I found some vindication in this assertion when I read about a British study of domestic dogs in a park in England, where they actually had some scientific evidence that this was indeed the case (something like 75-80% of the time; Google it!). I have no idea why, but I suspect that it's a periodic "down-time" wherein they have a chance to "reset" their internal gyros. Anyway, on pee-post sets, I always try to orient the approach to the post so the wolf can orient his body north-south (or south-north). I actually believe this might give me another slight advantage when trying to trap these guys.

I'm thinkin' I probably lost most of the real wolfers (or coyoters) out there, but I had to throw it on the table for all to heckle me for years to come.

Top
#5880317 - 04/18/17 08:14 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
I know sir, if I was limited to one I'd break out in hives. It's a tie here for yotes, GOOD urine or gland, then curiosity. All flat sets.
I think the north/south orientation is spot on for urine sets. Funny how we notice such things. Especially when we have snow to see all that happens. I think its the westerly prevailing winds that makes this so. Thanks again for a glimpse at your knowledge
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5880320 - 04/18/17 08:16 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RiversNorth13 Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 4320
Loc: Gitche Gumee Wisconsin
There is a thread on strictly trapping right now talking somewhat about this with yotes .
Most of my rivers run south to north and my sets reflect a lot of that .
Most post sets we set are close to what your describing.
Going to look up that British study .

Thanks Jack for spending your time on this thread !
_________________________


Simplify your methods to the point of perfection.

Become fast,efficient & effective.

The real "SECRET" to successful trapping.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

.

Top
#5880335 - 04/18/17 08:29 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: trappergbus]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
"Pay homage to all you harvest"

Trappergbus.

I meant to say something in an earlier post, but neglected. Just wanted to mention that I liked your enclosed quote. To me it reflects a respect and an appreciation for those furbearers that we depend on for our livelihood, both financially and mentally. Kudos, man!

Top
#5880346 - 04/18/17 08:35 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Thanks, always felt that was important. Gotta lot of respect for the animals that keep us mentally stable cool
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5882811 - 04/21/17 08:00 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Ringbill5196 Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 265
Loc: Iron Range, Minnesota
Nice post. Nobody mention your humor. Enjoyable to read.

How do you use gland lures for wolves?

Tell us more about your deep snow setting.

Top
#5882835 - 04/21/17 08:25 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Jack, you got me thinking now regarding "orienting or lining up" their bodies to urinate...mark a post.
How did go about figuring this out? And how long did it take you? I always figured it was the animal attempting to get the best angle to first detect the urine/ odor and then configure their body for the easiest/best way to cover it up with its own?
In regards to this....have you ever figured out why the canines put so time and effort " kicking back"
at good marking areas? I wondered if the kick back action possibly stimulated more anal glandular secretions?

Top
#5882864 - 04/21/17 08:54 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
the Blak Spot Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: central arkansas
For what it is worth, i requested our central arkansas library to purchase Mr. Whitmans book. Looks like it is going through, and i am first on the read list, lol
_________________________
the just shall live by faith

member FTA, NRA, SWARFTA, EAFT
1776 - the year we told a tyrant we weren't to be under a dictator
Caveat ater macula

Top
#5882902 - 04/21/17 09:36 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Ringbill5196]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: Ringbill5196
Nice post. Nobody mention your humor. Enjoyable to read.

How do you use gland lures for wolves?

Tell us more about your deep snow setting.


Ringbill, many thanks for the post. I'm not an accomplished lure-maker. I'll tell you precisely how I use the glands, and hopefully somebody that really knows the ropes will offer up their suggestions, educating both of us.

On a fresh carcass, I spend probably 20 minutes slicing and dicing. On a wolf, it only takes about 4 carcasses to fill a quart jar. Coyotes, probably 10-12 carcasses per quart. The glands (including the foot pads) are diced very finely, with no chunks bigger than a raisin. I let this "ferment" for about 2 weeks at relatively cool temperature (50-60F), then mix thoroughly with about 1/10th the volume of glycerin (as an antifreeze). I would undoubtedly be better off with some stabilizer, as the real strong smell of canid glands is only good for about 2 years, then it seems to get just plain stinky with rot. Most of my sets (for both wolves and yodel-dogs) using this gland lure are flat sets, but I have had some success even in dirt-holes.

Deep snow... Most of my deep snow chasing of wolves pretty much ended a decade ago in Alaska. Truthfully, when the snows deepened (and I still do this with coyotes down here in Idaho), I switch largely to snares. Just easier and, I think, more efficient. Too, I trapped in Alaska with my SuperCub, so carrying a pile of footholds was problematic, just because of the weight. My deep-snow foothold sets were usually blind sets in established wolf trails or on snowmachine trails (or airplane ski tracks I'd lay down along a river or frozen slough). Periodically, I have had some success with pee-posts alongside of snowmachine or airplane ski tracks as well.

That helpful?

Top
#5882913 - 04/21/17 09:50 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
I got another ? for you , will adult wolves commit to a set better than adult coyotes?
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5882996 - 04/21/17 12:00 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Jack, you got me thinking now regarding "orienting or lining up" their bodies to urinate...mark a post.
How did go about figuring this out? And how long did it take you? I always figured it was the animal attempting to get the best angle to first detect the urine/ odor and then configure their body for the easiest/best way to cover it up with its own?


MChewk...

Actually, the incomparable White17 got me thinking about this several years ago. He's the first one that brought the British work to my attention. Obviously, I then started taking notice. My old chukar dog (female Brit), given the unlimited possibilities, was about 85% "aligned" (Yeah, I actually spent about 6 months watching, with compass in hand). My next Brittany (another female who's a real sweet dog, but not the quickest trap in the box) was about 82%. My wolfing dog (a male Hangin' Tree Cowdog) is currently at about 88%. Of course, I then followed countless wolf and coyote tracks for a couple of years; compass in hand, in the snow, and sure 'nuf, they do the same thing. Why not take that to the next level, and orient my pee-post sets to take advantage of this natural propensity?

I'm in full agreement with you that a canid's first task at the virtual fire hydrant is to check out the existing smell, read the advertisement, then attempt to "cover" it with his/her own. So why not take advantage of their "comfort zone" and orient the post to allow them additional "comfort"?

Top
#5883027 - 04/21/17 12:56 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
Larry Sills Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/29/17
Posts: 268
Loc: Iowa & Neb
Originally Posted By: Gulo
White17.
....I'm a believer in pre-baiting for wolves. However, I don't use lure only, as there needs to be a reward involved (food) to encourage them to come back. I've got a system that I call "Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation" that works wonders.........


So how old are your cells Mr. Whitman? I ask, as for me your "Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation" is strangely similar to our "Pre-Conditoning Latrans before Inserting Foot " and operation we learned in the 60's. However, we used table scraps and quartered piglets as rewards simply because within our omnibuses we could not determine what the Pavlovian's may of used.

Any-who, thanks a bunch Mr. Whitman for answering my age old question about canned doggy food and the free running fido of America. Especially the part about the "greasier the better".

For you younger trappermen and trapperwomen don't forget to use Human experimentation which utilized canines to catch your canines. Why, because science is a wonderful thing!



Larry


PSST I like the name tag.....I am surprised I have not seen any quickhatch or skunk bears used. But I am new to this place.


Edited by wolferman (04/21/17 01:13 PM)
Edit Reason: Too dumb and old
_________________________
Cracker Jack Trapper and Predator Enthusiast

Top
#5883786 - 04/22/17 08:51 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: the Blak Spot]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: the Blak Spot
For what it is worth, i requested our central arkansas library to purchase Mr. Whitmans book. Looks like it is going through, and i am first on the read list, lol


Hey Spot. Many thanks for taking a chance on the newest book. It's basically a self-publishing outfit I go through (Trafford Press), and the up-front costs are outrageous. I get about $0.80 per copy, so will need to sell 2,400 of them to break even. The first book I did with them about 15 years ago, I'm still saving up all the royalties so I can maybe buy a decent used skinning knife someday.

Anyway, hope you like "The Last Hunt". Let me know...

Top
#5883804 - 04/22/17 09:09 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Larry Sills]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: wolferman

So how old are your cells Mr. Whitman? I ask, as for me your "Advanced Lupus Procurement Operation" is strangely similar to our "Pre-Conditoning Latrans before Inserting Foot " and operation we learned in the 60's. However, we used table scraps and quartered piglets as rewards simply because within our omnibuses we could not determine what the Pavlovian's may of used.

PSST I like the name tag.....I am surprised I have not seen any quickhatch or skunk bears used. But I am new to this place.


Wolfer! I just turned 60 (a few years ago). I like your PCLIF; might use it myself, with your permission; shows major initiative. Too, I'm a firm believer in the works of Comrade Pavlov.

Far as I know, there's still no quickhatch, skunk bear, stink-bear, carcajou, or rossamahah on TMan.

Top
#5884641 - 04/23/17 08:31 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: trappergbus]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: trappergbus
I got another ? for you , will adult wolves commit to a set better than adult coyotes?


Mornin' Gbus.

In my opinion, the simple answer is "No". Adult wolves seem to me to be a bit more "gun shy" than coyotes. I've watched quite a few trail-cam sessions (both video and series of stills) of wolves being captured in footholds. They're generally pretty spooky. They appear to be on high-alert with their feelers out. Have I had them walk on by? You bet! When I told him about a couple videos I had of wolves being caught, a friend of mine over on the other side of the divide (Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks wolf trapper) showed me one of his trail-cam videos. It was a young female black that came to the set 4 different times over about a 20 minute period before stepping in the right place. It was frustrating to watch the first three visits without the trap firing.

Since I've not been a "regular" on TMan for a couple of years, have any of you noticed any discussion on "handedness" of wolves or coyotes? To me, it's another biggie, and footholds should be set accordingly.

Jack

Top
#5884666 - 04/23/17 08:47 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
LDW Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/12/16
Posts: 556
Loc: N.E. Nebr
Great thread with a lot of info. Mr. Whitman, I am wondering about the "handedness" tendencies of canines. I usually set righthanded, but Andy Weiser in his video sets mainly lefthanded. What have you seen them do?

Top
#5884751 - 04/23/17 10:44 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Thanks Gulo,

That's what I figured, I see that here with snow cover with some coyotes.
Handedness is a biggy not many talk about.
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5884798 - 04/23/17 11:42 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
takotna Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Takotna AK
Hey Jack, how's it hanging? I'm sure going to check that north/south and south/north theory out next winter!

Top
#5884847 - 04/23/17 01:02 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: Gulo
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Jack, you got me thinking now regarding "orienting or lining up" their bodies to urinate...mark a post.
How did go about figuring this out? And how long did it take you? I always figured it was the animal attempting to get the best angle to first detect the urine/ odor and then configure their body for the easiest/best way to cover it up with its own?


MChewk...

Actually, the incomparable White17 got me thinking about this several years ago.



Jack is prone to typo's. He meant to write "unconscionable".
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5884849 - 04/23/17 01:04 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Here's a bit more information that supports Jack's information about canids aligning themselves N/S S/N

https://phys.org/news/2011-01-predation-foxes-aided-earth-magnetic.html
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5884922 - 04/23/17 02:41 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Guys how does wind direction play into all of this....as if animal is facing North( North east) and wind is gusting from opposite direction???

Top
#5885577 - 04/24/17 06:55 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Guys how does wind direction play into all of this....as if animal is facing North( North east) and wind is gusting from opposite direction???


Another intriguing and thought-provoking question, MChewk.

In my opinion, regardless of where the wind is coming from, I still try to construct my pee-post sets for wolves so they can align their bodies north/south. However, I do take into account the prevailing wind direction. For instance, out here, the prevailing winds, especially noticeable on ridge-tops and other upper elevations, are from the west or southwest. Therefore, I'm going to find a north/south trail or road, and put the post set on the west side of the track I'm suspecting the wolves will take. Putting it on the east side, there's a real good chance that the wind will take the smell of the urine away from the passing wolves, without them ever noticing. Can't have that. Certainly, like everywhere else, we have the daily "microclimate" changes in wind drift, where scent typically drifts downslope in mornings and upslope in afternoon. I often-times take this into account as well (on all my sets, not just pee-posts). That brings up a whole 'nother topic (another teaser) on "when does a wolf usually travel during any 24-hour period; when are the activity peaks?"

Top
#5885602 - 04/24/17 07:55 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
17hornet Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Central PA
Mr. Whitman, would you care to elaborate on your handedness of canines comment from above? Thank you sir

Top
#5885769 - 04/24/17 11:09 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: 17hornet
Mr. Whitman, would you care to elaborate on your handedness of canines comment from above? Thank you sir


17hornet. Sorry for the length of this post. It's basically verbatim out of the wolfing book that I plan to publish (one of these days).

Handedness
As is the case with humans, wolves (and coyotes and domestic dogs, and probably most other vertebrates) have a dominant “hand”. Certainly, just like humans, there are undoubtedly wolves that are left-handed, those that are right-handed, and a small fraction that are ambidextrous. It’s a relatively simple matter to determine your dog’s handedness. Put him or her sitting at the base of a stairway. Give the “come” command and the dog will generally take that first step up the steps with its dominant paw. Alternately, put a piece of masking tape on the dog’s nose, and see which paw it uses to try to remove the tape. I’ve read that in some studies, most female domestic dogs are right-pawed, while most males are left-pawed. I can’t vouch for that assertion; I’ve still never had a dog that was a south-paw.

(Bear with me here; there really is a point to this segment.)

Human fingernails (and undoubtedly wolves’ claws) grow disproportionately depending on handedness. If you are left-handed, for instance, your fingernails grow faster on your left hand (as do your left toenails). Thus, after mulling over this fact for a couple weeks (and not just a few toddies), I started measuring, with a very accurate set of calipers, the length of claws on the front feet of captured wolves (to the nearest 1/10 of a millimeter). In the vast majority of cases that I’ve measured, the four major claws on the front feet of wolves on one foot are longer than those corresponding claws on the other foot. Interestingly, the dewclaw, or “thumb”, is usually not consistent with the rest of the claws on that particular paw. That is, if the right paw has shorter claws than the left foot, it usually has a longer dewclaw. Makes perfect sense to me, in that the dewclaw probably grows faster but is not used in digging, and virtually never touches the ground.

Now, I’ve taken a bit of a leap of faith here, and I’ve assumed that the dominant paw would have the shorter four main claws simply from more use in digging and other activities that may wear down the claws. This has led me to the assumption (with perhaps questionable scientific rigor and an unverified assumption) that most wolves are indeed right-pawed. For the limited data that I’ve collected, this is regardless of gender. I’m still trying to increase my meager sample size, and will probably continue to do so until I’m taking my final dirt nap.
Okay. Let’s take this to the next logical step. Because of the above steps I’ve gone through over the years, I’m assuming that my conclusions are valid. Therefore, in dirt-hole/snow-hole sets, I offset the center of the pan on foothold traps two inches to the left. Sounds counter-intuitive? Not at all. In approaching a hole, with all senses at full alert, more often than not that particular wolf is going to want to use its dominant front foot to paw at and dig at the hole. Thus, I’m thinking that the left foot will be that last “committed” foot to hit the trap bed (and hopefully the pan). I’ve caught right at 90% of wolves at a dirt-hole by the front left foot (wish I could boast that percentage on flat sets and pee-posts).

Several years ago, a retired ADC guy (the fine Mr. Craig Parker) and I were trapping wolves in north Idaho. I was the designated “instructor” and he was the “student”. I probably learned more from him than he from me. I have no doubt that he’d caught more coyotes than I’d ever seen. He’s also one of the finest “cowboy-gentlemen” I’ve ever run into. However, he’d never caught a wolf. We were making the same sets, in the same country, and along the very same line. We were summertime catch-and-release trapping, trying to put out a few radio-collars. One of my traps just happened to catch the first wolf. One of my traps just happened to catch the second wolf. We were into this now for a week. He was feeling a tad bit down, as his traps hadn’t produced a thing. If I remember correctly, it was about the sixth or seventh day, and as we drove the old, two-track logging road, we came upon one of his trap sites with a missing trap. We stopped the truck, Craig going one way and I the other. Within 10 or 20 yards, I had a couple of overturned stones that looked like were probably hooked by the drag. Another few paces, and I could discern a decent drag mark, and a handful of paces beyond that, I could hear a rattling chain and sure ‘nuf, there’s a nice wolf hung up in the brush about 10 yards off the two-track.

I whistled to Craig, and he came a’runnin’. I looked hard at that wolf, and, serious as I could manage, I said to Craig, “Sorry, man. We’re gonna have to let that one go without a collar.” Craig was obviously in a state of mixed emotions. He’d caught his first wolf, and here I was saying it wasn’t any good. Not enjoying the suffering he was obviously going through at that time, I continued, “That was a dirt-hole set you hooked her in, yeah?” He confirmed that indeed it was. I continued, “Well, we only collar those wolves caught by the left front foot, and it appears that you got her by the right.” We both broke out laughing, and 30 minutes later, that old gal was wearing a new necklace and heading back into the puckerbrush.

Top
#5885859 - 04/24/17 01:03 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
laugh
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5885949 - 04/24/17 02:28 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trapr Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 1324
Loc: idaho falls idaho
Thank you Jack for writing out your thinking on some real thought provoking questions.
I believe you will have a true archive piece here.

Top
#5886038 - 04/24/17 04:13 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
2 TRAPS Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 3667
Loc: Bland Virginia
Mr Whitman you said you liked drags bc you felt the wolf did not fight the trap as hard. Do you think using drags for coyotes would be the same as wolves. Far as them not fighting the trap as much if they can get away from the catch site and hide? Thanks for sharing.
_________________________
HMC Mfg.
B.E.K TRAP TAG

Top
#5886118 - 04/24/17 05:49 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
Rio Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/08/15
Posts: 137
Loc: Montana
Great info Jack. Love this thread. I would like to hear some ideas for wolf trapping locations off the roads. I know the Biologist are trapping right on roads and intersections. But we have a 150 ft setback from roads. Do you prefer ridges, Trails, skid trails, ravines ??? Just curious if you have better luck on any one of these locations off the roads.
I also wonder if you ever run two or more traps per location whether side by side or one on left side of road and one on right side???

Top
#5887774 - 04/26/17 07:31 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 2 TRAPS]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: 2 TRAPS
Mr Whitman you said you liked drags bc you felt the wolf did not fight the trap as hard. Do you think using drags for coyotes would be the same as wolves. Far as them not fighting the trap as much if they can get away from the catch site and hide? Thanks for sharing.


Mornin' 2 TRAPS.

The use of drags is somewhat of a 2-edged sword, in my opinion. Some trappers like the torn-up trap circle, thinking it's an additional drawing card for the next coyote that comes along. I don't quite buy into that argument, especially for wolves. If you use a relatively small drag, and the coyote can get well away from the trap site, I have always felt I was better off. Too, I suspect if the coyote was better hidden, his reaction would be similar to wolves. However, how far away from the trap site is too far? How far is far enough? Largely, it depends on the terrain and the vegetation, so the size of your drag and the length of your chain will dictate how far that critter is likely to travel before he hooks up. On wolves, shorten the chain and reduce the size of the drag, and in some situations, that darned thing may go half a mile. On the other hand, we were having wolves in SE Alaska that couldn't even get off the trail because of the heavy, rainforest underbrush, especially near second-growth.

That help?

Top
#5887806 - 04/26/17 08:03 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Rio]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: Rio
Great info Jack. Love this thread. I would like to hear some ideas for wolf trapping locations off the roads. I know the Biologist are trapping right on roads and intersections. But we have a 150 ft setback from roads. Do you prefer ridges, Trails, skid trails, ravines ??? Just curious if you have better luck on any one of these locations off the roads.
I also wonder if you ever run two or more traps per location whether side by side or one on left side of road and one on right side???


Mornin' Rio. I'll be glad to ramble a bit this morning on these questions.

Wolves do a pretty good job at conserving each and every kilocalorie that they take in. Therefore, when moving from area to area within their territory (which averages, In Idaho, about 250 square miles), they usually take the path of least resistance. That is, travel is most often along back roads, trails and game trails. In looking at telemetry data, it's pretty clear that travelways are generally along ridgetops and creek bottoms, and they spend little time mid-slope (unless, of course, that's where the food is). One of the other things that I've noticed about wolves too, is that they visit old (I mean OLD) kill-sites. Even if the kill was 1 or 2 years old, if they're in the vicinity, they'll generally swing by. They were successful there once, they'll go by and check out the area, even if there is nothing consumable remaining.

Top
#5887811 - 04/26/17 08:08 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: takotna]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: takotna
Hey Jack, how's it hanging? I'm sure going to check that north/south and south/north theory out next winter!


Real good to hear from you, Clinton. Obviously the grizz and the woofs ain't eaten your carcass yet. Yeah, check that north/south thing out up there in your toe of the tundra (neck of the woods?). I'm assuming all's good with you and family?

Take real good care...

Top
#5887871 - 04/26/17 09:18 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Jack, a page back or so I inquired about kick backs...canines marking a spot. Ive seen ankle biter dogs kick back/mark after a Great Dane. What is your take on these AND have you figured out how to blend a foothold in on grassy areas AND/OR is it even necessary?

Top
#5887913 - 04/26/17 10:00 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: the Blak Spot]
the Blak Spot Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: central arkansas
Originally Posted By: the Blak Spot
For what it is worth, i requested our central arkansas library to purchase Mr. Whitmans book. Looks like it is going through, and i am first on the read list, lol


Our library purchased the book. Cant wait to read it!
_________________________
the just shall live by faith

member FTA, NRA, SWARFTA, EAFT
1776 - the year we told a tyrant we weren't to be under a dictator
Caveat ater macula

Top
#5887930 - 04/26/17 10:40 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: the Blak Spot]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: the Blak Spot
Our library purchased the book. Cant wait to read it!


Again, Spot, many thanks. The novel is pretty much Alaskana, but I sure hope you enjoy my attempt at spinning a yarn. I've gotten positive feedback from Dall sheep hunters from up there.

Top
#5887942 - 04/26/17 11:03 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Jack, a page back or so I inquired about kick backs...canines marking a spot. Ive seen ankle biter dogs kick back/mark after a Great Dane. What is your take on these?


Mornin' MChewk! Sorry I missed it.

You've probably spent more time thinking about that than I have. I'll again stick my neck out, and give you my thoughts.

As far as I can tell, it's usually a dominance display. My wolfing dog, who is only 2-years-old, won't do the back-up-scratch-dance at a defecation or urination spot when he marks over the matriarch's previous sign (an older female he's grown up with). When he's out and about on our property, however, and comes across a "signpost" left by either a coyote, lion, or red fox, he'll mark and do the dance every time. Not the case when we're roaming the hills off our place. He'll smell, then urinate, but won't dance. I've watched wolves and coyotes for 40 years, and can't tell with any certainty what elicits this response. At this point, I don't think it's an effort to stimulate anal gland secretions, as they would probably do the dance before they do their business, if that were indeed the case. But, when they do the dance, is it an effort to get their own smells radiating more scent, or is it an effort to dispel or diminish the advertisement that was deposited before them?

Because of this line of thinking, I don't make scratch marks at my sets for wolves. My thought process is that with urine or gland-based lure, I'm usually after any wolf that comes along, and I'm pretending to be an "interloper", not the dominant wolf in the area. What are your thoughts?

Top
#5887949 - 04/26/17 11:11 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
alaska viking Offline
"Made it one year not being censored"

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 3646
Loc: juneau, alaska
Glad to see you back here, Jack! If you ever grow weary of those canines down there, I think we still have an endeavor for you up here in God's country.... cool
_________________________
Wolverine toe-catcher.


Top
#5887950 - 04/26/17 11:11 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Jack, have you figured out how to blend a foothold in on grassy areas AND/OR is it even necessary?


Second part of your question, MChewk. No. For flat sets and pee-posts, I don't take the time and effort to try to blend the trap. In grassy areas, I've never quite figured out how to do a good job of blending and garnishing, so will usually go with a dirt-hole where I don't need to blend. I'll wimp out and go down the trail another quarter-mile to put in my flat set or pee-post where I can do a decent job of blending. Sorry I'm not more help on that one.

Top
#5888049 - 04/26/17 01:36 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Thanks Jack...good common sense insights and honest too...lol
Nope, I still haven't figured out the whole "kick back" actions done by canines...there doesn't seem to a set answer on this either. AND... can you discuss your thoughts on canine rolling on stinky stuff...lures, baits, bad urine, carcasses, etc..
This is another perplexing action to me...hope I'm not wasting your time...

Top
#5888145 - 04/26/17 03:14 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 13611
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
When I find a spot where the wolfs have a toilet(more than one marking and scratching)It is a spot where pack territorial boundarys meet,and both packs use the same spot to mark territory.This pisses off(literally) the wolves and there is a lot of the dominance scratching\marking.

Top
#5888664 - 04/27/17 06:29 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Boco]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
So, Boco, it seems that the "scratching back" is indeed a dominance thing to you as well? Do you see the same amount of scratching and "posturing" in the middle of the territories where the wolves aren't necessarily working the boundaries?

Top
#5888694 - 04/27/17 07:07 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Thanks Jack...good common sense insights and honest too...lol
AND... can you discuss your thoughts on canine rolling on stinky stuff...lures, baits, bad urine, carcasses, etc..
This is another perplexing action to me...hope I'm not wasting your time...


Mornin', MChewk! Not a waste of time at all, man. I'm always trying to learn as well, and many of these questions help me get my thoughts straightened out.

Canines rolling in stink. One man's stink is another man's cologne. While scientifically, we have extremely poor understanding of what a dog (or a coyote or a wolf) can smell, we have no doubt that their olfactory reception is almost infinitely better than our own. I read something many years ago that tried to get a handle on a domestic dog's ability to smell things. The author had measured the square millimeters of the twists and convolutions inside the nose of a dog where smell receptors were located. His conclusion was that their sense of smell was in the neighborhood of about 800 times what a human can detect.

Too, a canine's ability to filter "good smells" from "bad smells" must be astounding. We've all been in a truck cab with the heat turned on, heading home after a hard winter's day of hunting. The dog silently breaks wind, and the green haze overtakes everyone and everything in the truck. If the dog has such a heightened sense of olfaction, how can he stand the stink? However, he continues to sleep through the entire episode, even after you roll down all the windows. Been there?

Continuing along these lines, it's obvious that there are selective receptors for different micro-substances that are floating through the atmosphere. Apparently, the human nose can detect certain volatile compounds such as cadaverine and putricine even better than a dog's nose can. Our ancestors needed this to be able to detect rotten meat so they could stay alive (Don't eat that! It'll kill you!).

Obviously, this propensity of certain dogs to roll in putrid guts or rotting fish is a smell that they like. However, to our sense of smell, it's beyond disgusting. The different brains of a dog and a human have decided, independently, what is a "good" smell and what is "bad". That rotten carcass, way back in time, was a source of food and sustenance for the dog, while for a human, it was potentially a source of sickness and even death.

Again, one man's stink is another man's cologne.

My take only (again with very little hard science). What's your take?

Top
#5888758 - 04/27/17 08:09 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 13611
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
Gulo,I believe the boundary marking is a"show of force".I also see it when I activate a jackpot(bring bait to a snare set up)for the first time.The wolves don't always commit to the bait right away,but will defecate and do a lot of the scratch marking when it is first activated with bait.I believe they are marking the site as "theirs"to let any other wolves (or me)know to keep out.I believe they mill around for a while and their excitement as well as cautionary behaviour elicits this marking.When they find a jackpot they are actually "stealing another animals kill".I believe this is why they don't commit right away,but mark it,as a "test".On their next trip around If they don't detect another pack"marking" they go in.
Before I drop bait or after I am done and there is no more bait,I notice passing wolves will urinate near the site on occasion.I don't activate the same wolf jackpots every year.
I believe whenever something gets them excited,like the smell of another pack at the perimeter of their territory,or the chance of a feed,wolves exhibit this behaviour.
One other point,over the years I have noticed when I take several wolves out of the resident pack,Another pack will start to make forays from outside.I believe they know that the resident pack is weakened from changes in their marking behaviour at the territorial boundary marking spots.


Edited by Boco (04/27/17 08:22 AM)

Top
#5888774 - 04/27/17 08:35 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Boco]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Thanks Boco. So you're thinking that the back scratching is an excitement thing rather than a dominance display? Interesting...

Top
#5888798 - 04/27/17 09:19 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Thanks again Jack...and Boco....good responses and I have to admit I understand this explanation. What I don't understand and maybe I'm over thinking this....is I consider a wild hunting canine as a stealthy creature. A predator that wants everything in it's favor to increase the odds to be successful to make a kill. Why in the world would one want to stink itself up with putricine and caverdine odors? Wouldn't that allow other prey animals or other bigger predators to wind them...easier?

Top
#5888813 - 04/27/17 09:41 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RdFx Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3893
Loc: Wisconsin
MChewk, i think the rolling in stink is a coverup as bowhunters and others use skunk or other smells to cover human smells....the animals wouldnt think a rotting smell to be a threat.....the rotting smells cover the natural preditor smells that prey animals know very well. My take on rolling.

Top
#5888866 - 04/27/17 11:06 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: RdFx]
alaska viking Offline
"Made it one year not being censored"

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 3646
Loc: juneau, alaska
Originally Posted By: RdFx
MChewk, i think the rolling in stink is a coverup as bowhunters and others use skunk or other smells to cover human smells....the animals wouldnt think a rotting smell to be a threat.....the rotting smells cover the natural preditor smells that prey animals know very well. My take on rolling.


Personally, I find that a stretch. The amount of logic required to think, "if I wear this smell, I won't smell like a predator", is far more than a canine, even of the highest intellectual order, possesses.
_________________________
Wolverine toe-catcher.


Top
#5888899 - 04/27/17 11:43 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Taximan Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/20/07
Posts: 3070
Loc: SW Montana
Wolves often run down or corner their prey.I doubt if what they smell like,plays a big role.Jack,thanks for doing this.I'm really learning a lot.

Top
#5888984 - 04/27/17 01:19 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
RDFX, but wouldn't the odor be EASIER for any animal to detect and then bring them their interest/curiousity up of what is out there. A skunk is not a threat to a deer or coyote but it does cover up a human odor (threat).

Top
#5888989 - 04/27/17 01:27 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Great Thread, thanks all. Here's my take on scratch kicks from what I've seen with dogs,coyotes and red fox. The adults do this at sign posts to announce this is my Island ,stay out or else. When there's multiple scratches from a pack it seems its an overlap border sign post used by multiple groups. These are hot!
To get the adults it helps at times to make scrathes to imitate this behavior.
As far as the rolling goes, dogs just like to stink LOL..
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5889149 - 04/27/17 04:49 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
RdFx Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3893
Loc: Wisconsin
MChewk, the smell isnt a threat, as skunk quill doesnt make prey scared as in deer ect., plus a rotten smell isnt a threat either but if a yote, wolf, fox , bobcat smell comes up and the prey associated that smell with trouble then a more attentive alert. I could be wrong but this discussion makes trappers think and questions-questions is a good thing.

Top
#5890482 - 04/29/17 09:31 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Jack. Somewhere in the Mech/Boitani book one of the authors mentions that only the dominant pair raises their leg when urinating....even the female. IF that is true....how is it that ALL wolves seem to be susceptible to capture at a pee post ??

Also, along that same line of thought, is it only the dominant or breeding pair that engages in "scratching back " ??
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5890554 - 04/29/17 11:04 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
alaska viking Offline
"Made it one year not being censored"

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 3646
Loc: juneau, alaska
Until recently, I had two pairs of dogs, one male and one female, each. The pairs were in-separable from their pal, but the pairs could NOT be together.
One pair spent most of the day in one compound, and the other pair in the house. However, the main yard, (about 1/3 acre), was the place we would let them run, exercise, and do their business, one pair at a time. The girls were pretty much in-different to were they peed and crapped, but the boys made it serious business when it came to scouring the land for marking. LOTS of peeing, as well as scratching, but the interesting thing was what I call "High Marking", where one male would back up to a short stump, a piece of wood, or whatever else was on the ground, and crap on it. He would then scratch and throw dirt with all four legs with great gusto.
When I let the next pair out, the second male would re-mark all the urine, then find the last boy's pile, back up to it, and try to crap higher up the stump. Then would turn around, give it a good sniff and look-over, then scratch and throw dirt as far as he could.
I would never pass up a canine turd in the woods, and would instead pick it up, and place it where it will be noticed by a passing canine, (a rock or short stump), add a squirt of urine on the edge of said rock or stump, and set a trap accordingly.
_________________________
Wolverine toe-catcher.


Top
#5890603 - 04/29/17 12:05 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
OK one has to question...why cover up what you JUSTED MARKED?

Top
#5890606 - 04/29/17 12:13 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Boco Offline
trapper

Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 13611
Loc: james bay frontierOnt.
I've never seen them cover scat.The big disturbance from the scratching by the pack is the visual,to go along with the scent.I bet there is growling going on too.

Top
#5891176 - 04/30/17 08:03 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: alaska viking]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: alaska viking
Originally Posted By: RdFx
MChewk, i think the rolling in stink is a coverup as bowhunters and others use skunk or other smells to cover human smells....the animals wouldnt think a rotting smell to be a threat.....the rotting smells cover the natural preditor smells that prey animals know very well. My take on rolling.


Personally, I find that a stretch. The amount of logic required to think, "if I wear this smell, I won't smell like a predator", is far more than a canine, even of the highest intellectual order, possesses.


I have to agree with Viking. The thought process it takes is, I think, is above-and-beyond the conscious thought process of a wolf (and I personally give wolves a lot of frontal lobe credit). On the other hand, I can agree with RdFx, if we allow ourselves to consider another scenario for this process to develop. Again, I'll apologize up front for the length of this post, but allow me to ramble a bit.

A thousand generations ago, Stinky and his littermates were whelped. Through some genetic quirk, Stinky had a propensity, even at a young age, to roll in every darned raunchy thing he came across. Mom wolf was forever rolling her eyes and giving Stinky time-outs against the den walls for coming home with these vile smells rubbed into his neck and shoulders.

But, it also was genetically programmed that Stinky was quite the strapping young lad. Despite his being in trouble most of his young life, he grew into a good-sized, well-muscled frame. At two and a half years of age, he left the pack and wandered for a time, but always managed to periodically bring down a deer or a calf elk or a beaver, so he survived. (He was still rolling in Gusto-like smells every chance he got). Well, Stinky finally ran into a vacant territory and met up with a sweetheart and they (despite the missus not liking the way Stinky smelled) produced their own litter of pups. A couple of these pups had that same genetic signature from their father that dictated they roll in every pile of raunchy smells they could find. Ah, but they were very successful as well, always able to tip over a needed meal, and for the next thousand generations, this series of offspring (with the propensity to roll in rotten gut-piles) were marginally better than their peers at killing elk, so their offspring were a bit more successful than the non-stinkers. Thus, the genetic quirk that started the long line of stinkers became, over a thousand generations, the norm.

All kidding aside, I see this as a more likely scenario than conscious thought.

Let me go a bit farther. How many of you wolf-trappers out there have caught wolves that had recently festooned their pelts with vile smells? I've handled a metric boatload of wolves, and to me, they always smell like a wolf! They are, to my sensitive nose, stinky (no doubt), but they simply smell like a wolf. Not like a maggot-infested gut-pile or a raunchy pile of dead fish, but like a wolf. In fact, I have videos of wolves rolling in Gusto and other loud call lures, but each and every wolf I've caught simply smells only like a wolf.

Jack

Top
#5891197 - 04/30/17 08:26 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: white17]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: white17
Jack. Somewhere in the Mech/Boitani book one of the authors mentions that only the dominant pair raises their leg when urinating....even the female. IF that is true....how is it that ALL wolves seem to be susceptible to capture at a pee post ??

Also, along that same line of thought, is it only the dominant or breeding pair that engages in "scratching back " ??


White17, Boco, MChewk, Viking, RdFx, et al.

Great discussion and exchange of ideas. I appreciate it all!

I'll start out by asking a question back to White17. To catch a wolf at a pee-post set, does that wolf need to necessarily pee on the post? I think not. All they need to do is be curious enough to walk up to the post and sniff, and if the trap is positioned correctly, it goes "snap". I'm of the opinion that whether it's a dominant wolf or not, it will check out the "interloper's" sign post.

Too, I'm getting the opinion that pretty much all of us on this thread are in agreement that the "moon-walk", scratch-back is indeed done as a dominance display, and I'm personally of the opinion that it's in order to provide a visual sign (as well as the urine/defecation for olfactory sign) that puts a virtual exclamation point on their statement. That is, "You are trespassing, we're gonna catch you, kick your tail, and probably have you for lunch!"

Jack

Top
#5891245 - 04/30/17 09:13 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
I've noticed with coyotes if I imitate scratch kicks the adults respond like they are ticked..
Curiosity kills lots of coyotes! All K9s just have to pee to let the world know they were there and to let others know this is my island.. The next dominant one to come along just has to mark over, less dominate just a sniff. It doesn't have to be urine or gland from the same species for them to react. My 100 pound non nutered lab is a fine example. We have a chitsu/pecaneeze cross and a corgy. The Chitzu is the alpha. The lab never marks over the chitzu but the corky he marks over EVERY time, with pinpoint accuracy.. If the neighbors Pitts are out he scratch kicks and gets all bristelled and edgy..
Great discusion, great thread, thanks
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5891251 - 04/30/17 09:17 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: trappergbus]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Well said, Trappergbus. I'm in total agreement.

Top
#5891264 - 04/30/17 09:29 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
I kinda like making them mad, they seem to forget about where the paws go LOL.. Snap...
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5892215 - 05/01/17 09:46 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Taximan Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/20/07
Posts: 3070
Loc: SW Montana
Jack,I don't think there are any packs in the area I trap but occasionally a single passes through and one time,three.There are a few,abandoned mine shafts in the area and judging from tracks,the wolves seem to get excited when the get to one.The tracks show a lot of pacing outside and in the case of the three wolves,one ventured inside.

Before this past season,I scouted an area with a couple shafts.You have to get within 30' to see in the entrance of one of the shafts and at that point,it was easy to see a pile of wolf scat in the entrance,very prominently placed and just out of the weather.

Any thoughts on their interest in these shafts?Bears and lions occasionally go in there too so my only thought was,they were hoping to find something to play with or at least,see who has been there.

Top
#5892743 - 05/01/17 08:35 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Golf ball Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/19/14
Posts: 722
Loc: E central Il
Hey Guys, I've been reading this post with great interest and I apologize for getting here so late. As I read of the kick back theories I can't believe no one has concluded that the act of kicking back is yet another way for k 9's to leave sent. Everyone that collects glands , also saves the pads of all four feet right. Are these pads believed to be a gland or is everyone just saving them for filler ?

Top
#5893000 - 05/02/17 06:34 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Golf ball]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: Golf ball
Hey Guys, I've been reading this post with great interest and I apologize for getting here so late. As I read of the kick back theories I can't believe no one has concluded that the act of kicking back is yet another way for k 9's to leave sent. Everyone that collects glands , also saves the pads of all four feet right. Are these pads believed to be a gland or is everyone just saving them for filler ?


Hey Golf!

Sometimes I have a difficult time seeing the forest for all the trees in the way. Like the proverbial light bulb flashing over the thick noggin of the cartoon characters, your observations and reasoning, I suspect, are spot on!

Contrary to popular belief, all canids have "sweat" glands all over their bodies. However, only on places where they have no hair (nose pad, foot pads) are these glands actually functional for sweating (merocrine glands). The remainder (at the hair roots) are apocrine glands that produce pheromones, and don't actually sweat. So, it makes perfect sense to me that the moon-walk (kick-backs) is indeed an effort to get more of their "sweat" on the ground in another effort to advertise their presence and a virtual billboard warning others to high-tail it somewhere else. Too, I still have the opinion that the visual marks are important advertisement as well.

Anyway, thanks for shedding some light on this interesting discussion.

Jack

Top
#5893098 - 05/02/17 08:22 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
tjm Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/11/11
Posts: 6639
Loc: SWMo.
Do you see these kick backs in rocky ground or just in soft soils?

Dirt here is roughly what concrete mix looks like dry; rocks from sand to to big to throw with just enough dirt to grow plants mixed in and i don't recall ever seeing a canine scratch at a toilet or p post. Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I do recall a number of dogs that did the kick when I lived in the north.

Reading this reminded me of a particular dog in Idaho that always kick scratched an area three feet long every time he wet and made me wonder if it may a regional thing or soil related. Couple places Ive seen 20-xxx piles of coyote dung with nary a scratch. Figured those to be boundary markers, but don't know.

Top
#5893172 - 05/02/17 09:47 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Golf ball Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/19/14
Posts: 722
Loc: E central Il
tjm, this is why I asked the question ! I have seen dogs kick back in places that you could not see a mark when they were done. Maybe in rock or tall grass or weeds. I have found kick backs that I assume were made by a coyote, sometimes with a dropping and sometimes without. Perhaps the times I saw the dogs do it without leaving a mark their was more there than I realized or I just wasn't paying attention. When a dog or coyote kicks back in short grass or bare dirt is when it seems most noticeable, to me anyway !

Top
#5894770 - 05/04/17 12:16 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
decoy Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 1123
Loc: north Idaho
Don't stop with your infinite wisdom now Jack. Once we have ya on here would hate to lose ya for a period of time. cry
_________________________
Hunt with your Kids, not for them.
>>>----->


Top
#5894828 - 05/04/17 01:46 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Seems to me there must be something we are not aware of that triggers the dominance display.....if that's what it is....because I have more often seen wolf scat deposited in the trail, with NO scratch marks....than I have WITH scratch marks....in the snow.

is there a difference ?
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5895526 - 05/05/17 01:18 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Although I don't have wolf experience, I've noticed coyotes seem to scratch at territorial borders. Hey Jack what's your opinion on this here subject. grin
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5901212 - 05/12/17 07:39 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: white17]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: white17
Seems to me there must be something we are not aware of that triggers the dominance display.....if that's what it is....because I have more often seen wolf scat deposited in the trail, with NO scratch marks....than I have WITH scratch marks....in the snow.

is there a difference ?


White 17, et al. ...

In my opinion (again, no science here), the dominance display in wolves is only done by the dominant pair. That's why the moon walk display (scratching back) is only seen sporadically. There are some wolves in a pack that will never be dominant, and I suspect they would never do the moon walk. If there are 8 or 10 or 20 wolves in a pack, only the alpha male and female will display the scratching at a scent post.

Several years ago, I caught and collared an 8-year-old female. She was a member of a pack, and had never bred. She stayed with the pack, and did not breed in subsequent years. In my opinion, she was a sub-dominant wolf, and remained as a "helper" in the pack. I think this is actually quite common. Some wolves are genetically programmed to be submissive, and will take that roll throughout life. Others, of course, are "destined" to be leaders, and will leave their natal pack and either start a new pack in some distant place, or will eventually challenge their mother/father for the dominant (alpha) position. Others (probably the majority), are the proverbial "Chester Milquetoast" type that are relegated a lesser role throughout life.

I do agree, too, that the scratching display is probably more likely to be seen at or near the boundaries of a territory, simply because you might have 2 packs, with the potential for four animals to be alpha's.

This help?

Top
#5901328 - 05/12/17 09:10 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
Thanks Jack....but wait...So with your thought process of each pack having a DOMINANT PAIR and the existence of territories possibly overlapping....would a non(sub)- dominant wolf (canine) possibly mark over DOMINANT PACK MEMBER from another pack? AND if that is so... does this really make a big difference when setting up scratch backs or pee posts??

Another thought....when does an ALPHA breakout and become an ALPHA? I mean when they are born they certainly are not an ALPHA....what age is a wild canine thought to be mature/large/strong enough to be ready?

Top
#5902523 - 05/13/17 10:23 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Dave Mech is the guy who coined the term "alpha". He now says that he regrets doing so because it really isn't accurate. It implies abilities or traits that may be transient. The better term is "breeding pair". Clearly, even the dominant individuals in a pack will not always remain so. The breeding pair will change with age, disability, mortality, and perhaps even availability of food.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5902599 - 05/14/17 06:58 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Thanks Jack for your knowledge, great info from a man with vast experience. Lots of value in that. That goes for all the trappers on this thread!
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5903583 - 05/15/17 10:49 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
ttt
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5904633 - 05/16/17 01:44 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Hey White where did Jack go??
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5904634 - 05/16/17 01:48 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4637
Loc: Northern Illinois
He's probably killing wolves, lions or zombies...after they kicked back of course...lol

Top
#5904980 - 05/16/17 08:18 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: MChewk
Thanks Jack....but wait...So with your thought process of each pack having a DOMINANT PAIR and the existence of territories possibly overlapping....would a non(sub)- dominant wolf (canine) possibly mark over DOMINANT PACK MEMBER from another pack? AND if that is so... does this really make a big difference when setting up scratch backs or pee posts??

Another thought....when does an ALPHA breakout and become an ALPHA? I mean when they are born they certainly are not an ALPHA....what age is a wild canine thought to be mature/large/strong enough to be ready?


MChewk, and others. Yes on question No. 1. What I've seen many times is several members of the resident pack, when they encounter an advertisement in their territory, will indeed mark "over" the scent of the interloper. However, I don't believe the sub-dominants (the beta's, gamma's, etc.) will display the kick-back response. Generally, only the dominant pair does this. Further, in my opinion, it does not make one iota of difference in setting up the pee-post set. I generally try to avoid catching pups first (that are sub-dominants for a minimum of 2.5 years), but any of the adults that I can get to step in the right place, I'm usually all smiles. This avoidance of pups is done simply by managing my pan pressure, not by trap placement nor by type of set.

Your second question (and again, I apologize for my rambling on here) is a great one. Again, in my opinion (almost 15% of the time, I'm right every time ;)) wolves (and coyotes and domestic dogs) are indeed born with the genetic make-up to be leaders or to be followers. Let me expound... Back in the mid-70s, I was denning coyote pups for experimental use at the Dubois Idaho Sheep Experiment station. I wanted to raise a coyote pup, so kept 2 different males from 2 different litters that were not quite yet with their eyes open. As they aged, it was apparent that they were going to be very dominant, and were thus pretty much incorrigible. On my third try, another male from a third litter, I got a great one, and he taught me a tremendous amount about coyote behavior and about trapping his brethren over the next 2 years. Later, I had occasion to go into several wolf natal dens, and it too was apparent that there were aggressive (I assumed dominant) ones and there were always the proverbial wimps. In wolves, at least, their propensity to become a breeder (or alpha) is stifled by the parents until they are 1.5 to 3.5 years of age. Then (certainly not a conscious decision) they usually disperse and either join an existing pack or start their own pack. If their father or mother (the alpha pair of their natal pack) is removed, aged, or disabled, they may even assume dominance in their own pack. There appears, however, to be a "social taboo" in breeding with their own close kin. Thus, the impetus for dispersal is strong, with males usually dispersing greater distances than their sisters. I suspect this too, is a system developed over eons (again, I can't buy into the thought that it is a conscious decision) to prevent, or at least reduce, inbreeding.

Top
#5904982 - 05/16/17 08:20 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
I'm on the road these days, and only periodically get access to a computer and internet. I apologize for the delay in getting back to these questions.

Jack

Top
#5905146 - 05/16/17 11:07 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
alaska viking Offline
"Made it one year not being censored"

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 3646
Loc: juneau, alaska
Good to hear from you. As always, you give us a lot to digest.
_________________________
Wolverine toe-catcher.


Top
#5905321 - 05/17/17 09:19 AM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
cohunt Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1486
Loc: revillo, sd
This drivel may or may not contribute to the general knowledge of canid behavior. I am age 75 and have had dogs all my adult life, about half the time a pair and half time a single. I have never had a strong scratch dancer although several periodically did the dance. I currently have an 80 year old sister in law who moved north and she and her sister(my wife) are setting up an apartment for her while I dog sit her 10+ year old cocker who is STONE BLIND and nearly completely deaf. This dog scratches VERY vigorously with all 4 feet every time she defecates and sometimes when she urinates even though there are no other dog markings anywhere about. Because she has lost several of her senses she may be using those remaining more strongly or perhaps this behavior just reflects her personality. Overall she is quite tentative, I suspect due to the blindness. A final observation, while on her leash, she trots about following the graveled road and onto the mowed grass. When she encounters taller(less than knee high) unmowed grass she immediately veers back onto the road or mowed grass.

Top
#5905666 - 05/17/17 06:31 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: Gulo]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Thanks, I'm gonna ponder all this. I'm sure I'll have more questions. Be safe
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5905668 - 05/17/17 06:33 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: MChewk]
trappergbus Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southern Michigan
Originally Posted By: MChewk
He's probably killing wolves, lions or zombies...after they kicked back of course...lol

Ya have to let em display dominance before a well placed shot laugh
_________________________
Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..

Top
#5907138 - 05/19/17 06:57 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: cohunt]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: cohunt
This drivel may or may not contribute to the general knowledge of canid behavior. I am age 75 and have had dogs all my adult life, about half the time a pair and half time a single. I have never had a strong scratch dancer although several periodically did the dance. I currently have an 80 year old sister in law who moved north and she and her sister(my wife) are setting up an apartment for her while I dog sit her 10+ year old cocker who is STONE BLIND and nearly completely deaf. This dog scratches VERY vigorously with all 4 feet every time she defecates and sometimes when she urinates even though there are no other dog markings anywhere about. Because she has lost several of her senses she may be using those remaining more strongly or perhaps this behavior just reflects her personality. Overall she is quite tentative, I suspect due to the blindness. A final observation, while on her leash, she trots about following the graveled road and onto the mowed grass. When she encounters taller(less than knee high) unmowed grass she immediately veers back onto the road or mowed grass.



So.......Jim. I am wondering if you still have other dogs within the household or if the blind cocker is the only one ??? ( do any of you other musically oriented folks think of Joe Cocker and Blind Lemon Jefferson in this post :)))) )

what I wonder is .....perhaps the blind cocker is still smelling the previous dogs AND/OR is the cocker just displaying dominant behavior as a preventative against aggression from real dominant dogs that it can't see but can smell ????
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5907217 - 05/19/17 08:14 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Idaho
Cohunt...

To me, not drivel at all. It gets my interest up yet again.

It would be very interesting to me for you to ask your sister-in-law if the old Cocker has always been a moon-walker. As I said earlier, I think the moon walk is a dominance display, and I suspect, regardless of infirmities, said Cocker has always been (in adulthood) a moon-walker. Most people don't pay close attention to dog-speak, but the back-scratching should be something that has been noticed.

Looking forward to your report back to us all...

Top
#5907259 - 05/19/17 08:47 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
cohunt Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1486
Loc: revillo, sd
I asked her that question and she said that as she recalled the dog did not scratch when young and sighted. The practice developed as she aged(and presumably lost several of her senses) but has only been very dramatic for the last several years. I do not think there is any scent remaining from previous dogs marking. We have not had a dog for about 15 months and that dog did not generally visit the area where this old cocker has been marking.

Top
#5907266 - 05/19/17 08:53 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Sharon Offline
"American Honey"

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 3815
Loc: Montana ,Rocky mtns.



This image back in the early 1990's for Bob Noonan's magazine, was the start of my breakthrough from the industry of "approved art" in the upper middle class market, who disapproved of reality in predators -hunting-posturing-killing-stalking- chasing- to total freedom of natural expression in real life and the trapping/hunting magazines I so love to work for now.

It was my arrival, arising in flight out of the fire in freedom of true expression in animal behavior of the natural world.

There is not the money in popularity to be made on this winter trail in the snow....but the satisfaction of reality expressed more than makes up for me, any "approved art expression " of animal behavior warped by the uneducated and inexperienced fancy, backed by art merchants who only sponsor "approved images" that they see will make their industry the most money in prints.

I have followed this thread in interest and happiness as an artist who also has the biologist residing inside, to observe and display behaviors correctly to the editors and clients I work for.

Several decades have passed from this coyote marking his log to now for me.

But I will never forget the exuberant freedom I felt when my good friend Bob Noonan -my editor of Animal Damage Control Magazine -as it was called in the beginning- then to be named Wildlife Control Technology magazine -invited me to shatter the glass ceiling of my world to portray such real and at the same time-such fun and rebellious realism of what canines really do in their language of everyday life.

Despite the frowning disapproval of my would be sponsors in the art publishing world.


Lean freedom is so much desired better than fat slavery...

Thank you, Jack....and Ken....and all others who help to educate me in portraying the real natural world in accuracy and truth.











Top
#5907291 - 05/19/17 09:24 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 23371
Loc: McGrath, AK
Nice stuff Sharon !!! reality is always far more interesting than old wives' tales !
_________________________
Mean As Nails

Top
#5907301 - 05/19/17 09:36 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Sharon Offline
"American Honey"

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 3815
Loc: Montana ,Rocky mtns.
Indeed, Sir Ken, it is all the time......and the satisfaction of pushing back against the "norm" ....

Top
#5907308 - 05/19/17 09:42 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
trapper les Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/06/11
Posts: 13191
Loc: williams,mn
Thanks for that Sharon. I've not seen that piece before.
_________________________
My reality is the next guys fantasy.

Top
#5907334 - 05/19/17 09:59 PM Re: Jack Whitman [Re: 17hornet]
Sharon Offline
"American Honey"

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 3815
Loc: Montana ,Rocky mtns.
Les,

That carries a lot of sense to me as I experience my life in progression.

Top
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >

Moderator:  tmrschessie, ~ADC~