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Bats not coming out anymore? #6359536
10/29/18 02:43 AM
10/29/18 02:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
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webfootwhacker Offline OP
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webfootwhacker  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
I have a bat job where the client can hear them in the bedroom wall, but I don't think they are coming out anymore. Night temperatures here are in the thirties and will be twenties by the end of the week. I installed a valve on each dormer corner where I believe they are accessing the home. The area where they are hearing them is a long way from the dormer corners, but I am assuming they are using the soffit to move over to the side. They just started hearing them last week, so I'm thinking they moved in for the winter. They are adamant that they need to be removed now and not wait until they valve out in the spring. They offered to cut a hole in the tongue and groove wall and see if we could get them to come into the home and be trapped, but not sure how well they would take to this. They want to use thermal imaging to see them, but I think this seems like a long shot because we don't know which side of the insulation they will be on (but then again I don't have any thermal imaging experience). I'm open to any and all thoughts and ideas. PMs welcome if necessary.

Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6359749
10/29/18 12:31 PM
10/29/18 12:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,131
Woodhull, Illinois 77
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Jim Bethell Offline
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Jim Bethell  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,131
Woodhull, Illinois 77
Not sure what your laws are. In my state (Illinois), it would be illegal to try to move them this time of year with the temperature that low.

Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6359944
10/29/18 04:39 PM
10/29/18 04:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,733
Central NC
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traprjohn Offline
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traprjohn  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,733
Central NC
Our law only allows us to evict them only after Labor Day but before Memorial Day.


www.sevenoakstrappingsupplies.com
The 10 Commandments are not suggestions.
Buy a soldiers meal EVERY chance you can.

Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6359999
10/29/18 06:15 PM
10/29/18 06:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,233
WA
Vinke Offline
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Vinke  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,233
WA

If they are hearing them they are consuming calories
Consuming calories means food



Mice? Miss something ? (

Bat within a residents are fair game in Washington state
I would say that if it was my families life at stake or the bats, I would choose my family

Maternal time is when I follow the suggestions
I know what happens after doing this for sometime when you don't LOL


Living life like a dog with a stick


Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6360053
10/29/18 07:18 PM
10/29/18 07:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,941
Lower Alabama (Daleville)
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LAtrapper Offline
"Professor"
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,941
Lower Alabama (Daleville)
Originally Posted By: webfootwhacker
..... I'm open to any and all thoughts and ideas. PMs welcome if necessary.

Webfootwhacker- You may find some useful at the link below. CAUTION: The information may not be current. Contact the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources to check.

Minnesota Department of Natural Resources- https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/livingwith_wildlife/bats/index.html. Use the links in the left menu to find information about repellants, removal, permanent exclusion, and cleanup methods.


Note to self- Engage brain before opening mouth (or hitting the ENTER key/SUBMIT button).

Ron Fry

Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6360275
10/30/18 12:29 AM
10/30/18 12:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
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webfootwhacker Offline OP
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webfootwhacker  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
Thanks for the thoughts guys. I was wondering if hearing them meant they were still active. I heard one myself the other day when installing the valve so there is at least one. But I thought maybe my banging around riled him up. I thought maybe fliers when I first heard what was going on, but she said she could hear "flapping" the other day. We are allowed to use lethal means in MN. I'd say its possible I missed something as I started running out of daylight during the inspection. I have plans for a return visit to double check things. I can't imagine they are going to remain active much longer. It's going to be below freezing in just a few more days. Maybe it's bats and flyers - had that happen a few days ago, but the the flers should have valved out. Will be interesting to see what I find on Wednesday or Thursday when I go back (seasonal home).

Last edited by webfootwhacker; 10/30/18 12:36 AM.
Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6360534
10/30/18 07:24 AM
10/30/18 07:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 93
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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HD_Wildlife  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 93
NM
webfoot,

Just .02 to add to the discussion here on bats and pre winter/winter issues and practices.

We all of course face clients sometimes who want to drive the bus and can be adamant about
what they feel needs to be done and how quickly.

In this case as written they are attempting to dictate not only your methods, but your timing
with one possible outcome being live bats inside the home where currently it isn't stated that this is
happening.

Not withstanding the potential human health and safety issue of a potential rabies vector inside a home,
in many of the exterior bat colonies who are within the envelope but have never been inside, the notion
of taking a clients direction toward a liability is the last thing I'd be working toward.

Again just my .02, there are plenty of folks with a deep base of years working with bats, I'm only in year 7
currently and learn from bats every year with various little differences in behavior, biology, structure use, etc..

Factually bats go into torpor daily, when temps drop low, without being true hibernation, they can go into extended
periods of torpor without consuming anything or even leaving a roost for hydration. For the last 6 years we've been
rehabbing as well as our primary work with bats and I can show you big brown, little brown, silver-haired bats and other
species who will stay in the same spot without moving, not eating and while this used to worry us that something was wrong
as temps were in the 50's-60's in the enclosures, over time we realized they were going "dormant" if you will.

I used to believe it had to be freezing temps which seems logical that drive them to hibernate. While it is true that once insects
are available to consume anymore, you must do something, migrate (some north american species) or hibernate (most north american
species).

What stopped us from doing bat exclusion once temps reached a certain threshold was our own observation prior to this becoming
a topic which is now is on a national level in state, federal and other wildlife entities in the face of WNS and greater conservation concerns.

I was on a ladder in late november in the mountains here working on a log cabin. It was around 36 degrees day temp (nights way lower) and
in one check in a log there were 4 big brown bats looking back at me, sleepy and slow, but alive and right there.

That and a few other observations made us change our methods and timing for winter considerations.

***

If we take bat conservation and ethics of killing or entombing bats out of the equation for a moment, lets just talk about the idea of doing a "routine"
exclusion on a home or structure after bats become sedentary and temps are going to keep them inactive for longer periods.

While acceptable management practices often list 7-14 days of one way valves for bats to exit, many leave them for anywhere from 24 hours to 3-4 days
max no matter the weather or conditions. We stick with 10-14 days and often valves are up longer as there isn't a rush to take them down other than being paid
as the bats should be gone and client knows you have to return to complete the remove valve and final seal of those places you left "open" for exit.

Now, herein lies the rub.

Should you as a company want to assure the bats left based on good temp conditions for emergence (feeding and drinking), or is it advisable to go ahead no matter
the activity level and hope for the best, when one outcome is bats don't leave during your venting period, you return after X days and go ahead and remove valves and complete
seal.

Then a night later the folks find live bats inside their home, run around grabbing at them and chasing them, and calling you frantically to come get them, along with animal control and
the health dept.?

Just on the business end, I'm a big fan of avoiding litigation and lawyers and liability. I'm sure you are too as would be most on here.

If we get clients who have had live bats inside, the first step for us is always to look at possibility of interior seal if the home has obvious entry points (log cabins with large purlins, etc..). We can seal the interior from the inside and prevent issues for the client, while waiting till the appropriate time when exclusion will work as we'd expect it to.

Is this a perfect answer? Not for every client or home, or building, and not always feasible, but just to say, the moment folks are telling me, lets take a wildlife species who is in the wall and let it get inside with us I'm thinking they are needing some education and knowledge to help them realize they are in the weeds mentally with their notion.

I know folks don't like hearing anything in their walls or structure and thinking "I have to wait? What why?" But you as the man running the shop who knows the wildlife you work with and the needs to do this X way, or ways, hopefully can help them get back on track and I can tell you I have yet in 7 years to have a client flat out tell me no way when I explained all the issues with rushing or doing this poorly.

****

Back to human health and safety mentioned by Vinke. Yes, we all know we should assure the client and their family are going to be safe and secure once we are involved to the best of our ability, but can we all agree the information provided in original post says nothing about bats getting inside the interior living space, only that they were in the envelope of the home structure.

This means risk is at the onset low from the description, until that is you start following non wildlife specialists down the road of what they'd like to see done.

I have clients that love bats, have clients that hate bats, have clients who are scared to death of them and those who want them to remain on the property when project to exclude is done. We are all in the realm of facing wild cards every day and so know that I empathize but hope that you will help steer them away from the notion this needs to be rushed.

****

Every year we get calls after someone locked bats in by either too short a number of venting days, no venting at all and a number of other scenarios. In nearly all those cases, they've called the original contractor and gone off angrily, they've often called the city or county health officials and its a real mess and many have mugged bats themselves often getting nipped as they don't know how to capture them without fouling it up.

****

A couple of side points just for the sake of saying.

Though most states do allow for lethal removal of a colony or group of bats if human health and safety is in question, it should not be the standard or the norm and you'll find officials who issue licenses in most states would frown upon the idea that they are being killed in a non exposure scenario where they were only exterior and not interior living area scenarios.

Bat conservation is ramping up massively across the country due to WNS even for species not currently impacted and every single state in the country and across Canada has officials involved in this as do non profits and strings of others.

Suffice to say, conservation risks to bats always includes human persecution and it is on the radar of policy makers, who while they will never tell you you can't remove a colony if certain criteria are met for risks of rabies, will definitely look for those who are using poor decision tree to end up with dead bats.

- She mentions "flapping noise" I don't know that I've had a client use term "flapping" when describing whats heard. Bats often make a "drumming" noise when they are grooming and prior to and following flights, their forearms will drum on the substrate and create obvious noises. Maybe just a different description but just wondering if you've asked her to describe the sound, or try to record the sound with her phone? I've had good recordings that helped diagnose a number of wildlife potential issues thanks to cell phones and ability to send an audio file or video file.

***

If in the end they won't take no for an answer and you plan to attempt to open something up inside, I would look into a lawyer drawing up a doc for you to have them sign so they understand you aren't going to be liable for literally causing live wildlife to enter the living space. A good lawyer on their side could always still sue you and produce enough sound evidence to negate your attempt to protect yourself, but to me these folks aren't thinking logically on any level when it comes to opening interior walls for whatever is in there. If it was dead, I get it, cut and find it, but if live, good lord, what are they thinking?

Have they ever seen bats during warmer months flying in and out of their exterior? Ever had live bats inside the home? If so when, how long ago, how many?

I love to talk about bats and other wildlife and my clients can ask me a million questions and I'll answer them all best I can, but I have lots of questions always that help me know them, know their issue and assure we build a trust where they know I have their best interest in mind and also that of the bats.

What is good for them is good for the bats and what is bad for the bats is bad for them.

Use that statement weekly and folks get it when its explained. Do exclusion or attempt to exclude at the wrong time and negative actions are likely for both humans and bats.

Do it at the right time with best management practices and the best outcome is likely for both humans and bats.

Again, just my nickels worth here, we all have experience, opinions, etc...and so know that I'm sharing knowing some folks will take something from this and others will dismiss it.

I'm good either way as long as I put it out there, folks can do as they please.

Justin

Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6361281
10/31/18 01:01 AM
10/31/18 01:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
W
webfootwhacker Offline OP
trapper
webfootwhacker  Offline OP
trapper
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
My original thought was put the valve up now and they will leave in the springtime. That's what I told him when I installed them. But know that they are still hearing something they are impatient. I'll double check when I'm there next time and see if maybe there's two different things going on at once

Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6362588
11/01/18 05:29 PM
11/01/18 05:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 24
OH
W
WCT Offline
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WCT  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 24
OH
My first question on situations like this is why do you think they have bats? In other words, did you actually see them or are you basing this off of the client, evidence found during the inspection, or something else?

If you saw the bats, then you get into the dissertation Justin posted and having to make a decision. I will caution that just putting up exclusion devices without actually performing an exclusion isn't going to solve any problem, rather it may create one.

If you didn't see any bats, then you have to take a different approach. Let's say you found sign or heard movement, but again you didn't see any bats. All this means is that the structure had some sort of bat activity in the past, nothing else. Don't let others (client or other operators) influence you to believe otherwise. There are 5 different types of bat roosting sites so what type is it? Why do you believe it is the type of roost you're thinking it may be? A point to always keep in mind is that if the bats are in torpor, you won't hear them! So if you heard something, was it really bats or something else? (If it was bats, that means they are still active and most likely leaving the structure on a regular basis.)

If you didn't see any sign and are going off the client, you need to ask why they think they have bats. Going off their response, you have to either prove them right or prove them wrong. That isn't to say to prove they do or do not have bats, rather to focus on what they are demanding and prove it right or wrong. In other words, let's say they think they have bats now because they saw them earlier. When did they see them, how many, and for how long? Without these answers, you could be chasing a ghost so to speak. Now let's say they didn't see them but are basing everything off what they found on the Internet or with a phone call to another company or individual because of the noise they hear. In this case, look for sign, determine the roost type, and then develop your treatment plan. No sign means no bats or only a handful which makes me question what they keep hearing. Keep in mind that in both of these scenarios the noise may be something else such as mice, flying squirrels, or a construction issue. You can narrow down what it may be by asking the correct questions.


Eric Arnold
www.wctmagazine.com
Re: Bats not coming out anymore? [Re: webfootwhacker] #6363035
11/02/18 04:00 AM
11/02/18 04:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
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webfootwhacker Offline OP
trapper
webfootwhacker  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Northern Minnesota
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm certain that the bats are in there, as I heard one while installing one of the valves. There were only two possible access points (soffit returns where two rooflines met). I visited the site yesterday and still only see these two points. There was a guano pellet in one of my valves. So - either they defeated the valve, or not all of the bats came out. The client saw two bats flying around a few nights ago, so I guess they are still going out on occasion. I don't see this lasting much longer though as lows will be in the twenties and highs around thirty. The bats recently moved in as they didn't hear them all summer until last week. I believe that they moved in to use this home to overwinter. It's possible that it's bats and something else, but I didn't see sign of anything else. I think flyers are a possibility, but don't think it's mice. But if it's flyers I would think that they would exit through the caulking tube valves.

Last edited by webfootwhacker; 11/02/18 04:01 AM.
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