(This is a duplicate of what I also posted on TrapTalk)
Just got back into town for more fuel, then back out for another week or so. I've mentioned before that I live trap marten and release the females. Marten have a relatively low reproductive rate, and since female marten are only worth about half of what a male is worth I think it's more productive to release the females. We put our cage traps into wooden boxes with the floors cut out so the cage trap sits about 3/4 of an inch above the ground. That allows urine and feces or fall through the trap so the marten stays dry, we also put a good quantity of bait in the trap so the marten has plenty to eat.

The video I've linked to shows how we determine the marten's sex before we either release or dispatch it.

Today I released 6 females.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryWecW-G75U&feature=youtu.be

That’s awesome!

I've never noticed that much difference in prices on males vs females, but it cant hurt to let a few females go. I know a trapper here that used to use cage traps in Finland and he also released a lot of the females. He said it was nothing to catch 600 in a season.

Thank you for this fascinating info and video . Anytime you'd care to share more would be appreciated also

Cool video. I have handled live marten and along with being bitten the claws can cause a nasty scratch. I have seen them bite through welding gloves.

Are you trapping in Washington or Alaska?

I have ran over 200 marten traps, to change to cage traps would make it unprofitable for a bunch of years.

Really interesting, thank you.

Osky

Trapping in SE Alaska.

I know it is almost impossible to differentiate between adult and juvenile female marten without looking at the reproductive tubes.That said,releasing all females is better than killing them all.
The only problem is that the highest mortality in juvenile marten when the carrying capacity is set is the juvenile females.So some of the resource will go to waste that otherwise could have been harvested.
Personally,I would harvest all marten early and keep an eye on the ratio of all juveniles and adult males to Adult females.After the main dispersal of juveniles is done which will be indicated by a rising ratio,then if I wanted to keep trapping I would release all of the subsequently captured females.

^^^^^^
I question whether or not marten in my area disperse like they do in the extensive boreal forest areas. My marten occupy relatively narrow forested valleys, half way up the mountain sides turns to extensive alpine ridges that run for 20-30 miles before converging into vast glacier/ice fields.
In other words these marten are pretty much confined to half mile wide timbered valleys. They would be very easy to trap out, that's why I prefer to error on the,side of caution.

Whether they disperse or not,the carrying capacity is finite and the numbers will be pared back one way or the other each year.You are correct in that in fragmented habitat,when a population of marten drops to critically low numbers from either overtrapping or from natural circumstances,they take a very long time to repopulate if at all.

I don't know that I would agree with that. Prey species can also fluctuate up and down. So if X is the carrying capacity for marten in a particular drainage...next year it could be 10X or X-10. It will always fluctuate. I know you remember the small mammal failures of a few years back.

So personally, I think it's a good idea to release females, particularly in the late part of the season. That's one of many reasons I prefer foot hold traps over body grips. Tough to release them from a 120

I agree the carrying capacity varies each year.Sure some years are better than otherswhen it comes to total numbers of animals,but there are always more animals produced in the spring than the land can carry in late winter which is the critical time,in a normal reproductive year.I believe the reason marten can repopulate an area of good habitat so fast after a crash is that a reproductive failure removes pressure on the recovering prey species in the following year.

Yeah that might be . On the other hand, if both marten and prey are at a low levels, it could affect pregnancy rates in marten if they are not in good enough condition

I know things are different in different places,but in all the years I have trapped marten here,and from talking with a lot of trappers in the region as well as the regional and district bio's,there was only one time when the marten crash lasted more than one year in the core habitat.They were non existant in most places for 2 years in a row,with some pockets here and there in the second winter.That was around 2005\06.The Bios wanted to zero quota the trappers for two years after the first year,and our provincial assn fought that.We felt that if all trappers were zero quotaed for 2 years we would never be able to get a handle on what was going on with the population by not having any data from the carcasses.We agreed to a 80% reduction in quotas for two years.In the second year (3rd year after the crash) the trappers had the proof that the marten were back in good numbers with high juvenile count to allow re instatement of full quotas 1 year early.If we had been zero quotaed we would have had no proof of what was happening on the landscape.
I know trappers who depend on marten really take interest in ensuring that their populations remain healthy on the landscape.It is good to hear What you are doing Waggler and how you have managed your marten successfully over the years in your area.

Boco,
Are there a plenty of LARGE (200 sq. miles+) refugia areas, of good, quality, marten habitat, between each trapline, in the region of the crash?? It sounds like a mix of inadequate refugia, prey crash, and hence a reproductive failure, to have the scenario you mention.

YOY females probably worth $30, be good year to let them go. If they die anyway, you are only out $30. If they live, they may make you a $60- $80 male in the future.

Reproductive failure is almost always caused by an inadequate food source. I know it does happen, but Im not sure it happens as often as some think. I think during lean years marten will move completely out of an area. That can give a trapper the illusion that marten numbers have crashed when in fact they have just moved out of an area all together. I also believe that at times, these distances can be many miles.

No scientific evidence to back these thoughts up with, but its something I have observed on a small scale.

I know wolverine will move out of an area entirely in lean years. You might not see a wolverine track for two or three years, in areas where they were common in good years. The wolverine didnt die, they moved out in search of food.

Waggler I think you need a new screen name. Marten wrangler or some such nickname. You are way braver than I am, those guys always make too much noise and their teeth look like they would do a number on my fingers so I try to keep my fingers away from them.

^^^^^^^
The audio wasn't very good in the video. I was trying to explain that you want to keep your hand balled up in a fist, and that if you let your fingers dangle down they will get latched onto. The marten will make a peck or two at your fist and as long as you don't flinch they sort of give up on the idea.

Since ADF&G information states that marten start dispersing in late summer. My guess is the young are mostly dispersed by the beginning of trapping season?

I don't think so. More than once I have caught an entire family group the same night within yards of each other............early November

I think here they are. I can't remember too many times, if ever, where I saw tracks of family coming through like you see with otter. It might vary, depending.

There were no marten in the chapleau crown game preserve those years,T4E,(7000+ sq km refugia roughly between Wawa and Timmins) and none in the far north,according to the bios, another area barely trapped which absolutely dwarfs the CCGP.

The year before the big crash,marten had abandoned their home ranges which they will do when the prey base disappears.Lots of big adults in the harvest that year.Some are of the inclination to trap hard when Marten abandon their home range as most will likely not make it anyway,others say Stop trapping like we would normally do when the number of adult females rises in the harvest.

It made no difference anyway in the subsequent two years it took the marten to start coming back.

Boco,
Thanks for the reply and info! I find this an interesting occurrence. Don't you have a fairly wide prey base ie. microtines, rabbits, hares, grouse, ptarmigan, squirrels, song birds, etc, aside from carrion (winter kill, predator kills, raptor kills etc), berries, fruit, etc, etc...? Did all food sources disappear, or just their main diet of microtines? In your best educated guess, what do you think caused the shortage? Dispersal out of the area, due to food shortage? Starvation? Lack of reproduction? A combination of all three?

In my experience, any time you see a harvest comprised mainly of adults, in good numbers, the next two years will be rebuilding years, where harvest needs to be minimized. On the year of mainly good numbers of adults in the harvest, my strategy has always been to harvest as normal, (normal amount of sets) but pull the line early. This generally harvests the bulk of the males, and minimizes female harvest. My female harvest will always go up late season, and around new and full moons. After the high adult only population year, where the adults are roaming, presumably looking for food, and harvest availability is very good, I curtail efforts for the next two years (fewer sets, and pull early). This give reproduction a chance to oversupply the carrying capacity again, which is what we are ideally after, (harvesting the surplus, that would otherwise die of natural causes)

Anytime the all adult harvest scenario harvest happens, you can COUNT on at least 2 years of minimal production. This is due to females needing to be born, raised to breeding age, bred, eventually implant, and hopefully have enough food for successful pregnancies. This scenario takes a MINIMUM of a couple years. The recovery period rarely would include a mass relocation back into the low population region, as the crashes in my experience follow the microtine crash. Meaning minimal food in the area that has crashed. So I would say a 2 year minimum recovery until the population is rapidly rising is normal, unless there is a nearby area of refugia, that has maintained a stronger population, for them to disperse from.

white17,
My experience is the same as yours. I have numerous times, up into December, watched what I assume to be sibling groups or mother and young, in up to groups of 4. Maybe it is a matter of habitat quality? More dense food sources allowing denser populations? I know both Dirt and yourself have the experience and knowledge to know what's happening on your lines, so interesting observations that you have both seen a different pattern there.......

In all the years I have been trapping marten in this country,I have only seen 3 times when the marten abandoned their home ranges en masse.It is a fairly rare occurrence.While the refugia system of management works fairly well most years,when the resident marten abandon their home ranges en masse due to widespread small mammal failure the refugia method does not work at those times.I am in a unique area to notice when this happens as in the 3 times I have seen it,the indicator was a very high catch of very large marten(they come down from around James Bay,these are very different marten than the boreal marten here)starting in late December early January.
The main food source for our marten is the small mammals,like voles.In late winter,some years say around march, when a heavy crust impedes the marten from accessing the small mammals under the snow,they depend on rabbits and you often see them running down rabbits and catching them easily this time of year-see it all the time.The cree word for marten is Wapishstan,which translates to rabbit chaser.I believe that when lynx numbers are high,the smaller female marten cannot compete with the lynx and the larger male marten for rabbits at this critical time of year.As you know a female marten will re absorb the blastocyst if they are in poor condition this time of year,leading to a reproductive failure.These are in my opinion much more common occurrences,and lead to the one year crashes and subsequent rebound that is by far the norm here in the marten cycle.
And I know that cree trappers historically shoot owls and hawks.years ago when I asked a neighbor why he killed these birds his answer was fairly simple-"I kill what eats what I eat".It was the age old way of thinning the competition for rabbits which are snared heavily in winter by people living on the land.Some years there are an abundance of owls in this country and I believe they not only have an impact on the marten directly but by impacting the rabbit and small mammal populations which the marten depend on.
So there are quite a few variables,and overtrapping at the wrong time plays into it but only partially.I believe overtrapping impedes the recovery more so than leading to the crash in the first place.If a trapper keeps an eye on the ratios of juveniles/males and adult females as he harvests,he will have a window into what is happening with the resource,and this will help him not overtrap at any time.
There are several methods that help exclude adult females from the harvest,but that is for another discussion.

Such information compared and shared is so important. Like the pendulum gravitating to plum alignment.

Thank you, trapped4ever.

I am transfixed.

And enjoying to the full in my learning from all knowledgeable input.

So which do you think caused your shortages, the three times you mention, Boco? Relocation? Starvation? Reproductive failure? Or a combination of all three?

We've had this conversation a few times now, and I'm a might slow, but I honestly can't fathom what you are recommending is a better management strategy than refugia? Just watching your ratios, and pulling accordingly, limiting effort, or in your extreme low cases, not setting at all? Or are you simply stating that no amount of refugia will help, in the type of extreme crashes/ relocation, you've seen? That I would concur with. However, untrapped refugia is the only thing in our control. Obviously, if you are in a high pressure area, you can't control all that goes on surrounding your line. However, not setting your line at all, or not setting portions, in itself creates refugia. Hence the one thing that IS in my control. Ideally, enough quality refugia will maintain a good breeding population, to disperse into the trapped areas. I can't control prey species, weather, relocation, reproduction, ratios, etc, THE ONE thing that is controllable, is refugia. Do you agree with that, or am I sounding crazy? By the time you've established you are seeing a ratio you don't like, you've already killed those adult females! It will be interesting to see how wagglers female release program works out.
I've said this before, but with the proper amount of refugia, in my area, when the population is climbing, I can't trap enough animals to keep the population from climbing the next year, when the crash is imminent, I can not trap at all, they will still crash. I play a very minor part in the population dynamic, normally just targeting the surplus number of animals, above the carrying capacity, which varies, depending upon prey species populations.

I also STRONGLY agree with your statement that overtrapping impedes recovery, and does NOT lead to the crash. Good info, thanks!

The only 2 year near total disappearance of marten documented here in this country around 2005 was due to a widespread,extended small mammal crash according to the bios.The reasons for this remain unexplained as far as I know.And there may well have been a perfect storm type scenario in play in the interconnected ecosystems that year also but these things are very hard to correlate.The disappearance of marten that time included areas of prime large refugia.
Small mammal crashes occur regularly but not extended ones.After a crash to near zero,small mammals being prolific breeders rebound quickly and in numbers.Some years you cannot cross a grassy beaver dam without causing dozens of them to scurry out from under the grass.Shrews also reach high numbers,with several chewing up bait in every box some years.
Protecting core marten habitat in this country is important.It does not have to be overly large as long as it is connected to other core habitat which may or may not be trapped.In this country there are many large untrapped areas,and even in areas of more trapping pressure there are large areas that do not get trapped,like the chapleau crown game preserve,nippissing crown game preserve,some large provincial parks like Algonquin.and some smaller ones also.The biggest factor contributing to low marten numbers from year to year on some traplines here is fragmented habitat,mostly from logging practices or large forest fires.The marten cannot successfully disperse from refugia into areas that have been trapped or depleted naturally.

We know there are several methods of managing marten-using home range size to exclude some adult female territory,the traditional native method of not trapping after December,and the refugia method.

In all cases the goal is to protect the Adult breeding females.Juvenile females are the smallest most likely of the species to succumb to starvation,predation,cannibalism etc.You will never exclude all Adult female marten in the harvest on a conventional marten line.For me the goal is to keep the number higher than 4 to 1 adult female..

The method that has worked well for me over the years is to sex and age my harvest while using trapping methods that exclude the capture of adult female marten .By doing this I know which years are safe to continue trapping to the end of the season,or to quit early.


Every marten trapper,in my opinion should familiarize himself with the various methods of marten management and like waggler,work out a combination that proves successful over the long term.It takes many years on the land and the sharing of information between trappers to be a good fur manager for all species on your line.


I think we are very fortunate to have a registered trapline system here in most of Canada as it allows the fur harvester to be the frontline manager of his resource.

I believe the same holds true for most of the Alaska trappers as you basically have the same system only not registered.

".I believe overtrapping impedes the recovery more so than leading to the crash in the first place."

Bingo!

This is why the trappers north of me have few marten. Because the pound it irregardless of conservation. If they knew, or cared, what they were doing they would harvest a lot more long term by harvesting more wisely. The marten they get probably come from the refugia I provide in my area.

Hey Dirt we are in the "its all about me generation". Screw the trappers that have farmed their area and they will trap on top of a well established existing line or claim its theirs! Thats been my experience anyway. Farming is not in their DNA.
Snap

Lots of good info here. I think it varies greatly depending on the geographic makeup of the area you trap. I've checked the stomachs on marten on my trapline for many years and I would say the hare is their main source of food over at least the southern half of my line. I've noticed my best years are when the hare cycle is high as well.

The line to the east of me however has very few rabbits but lots of lemmings/voles. The trapper who owned it for many years also checked stomach contents, and not surprisingly he found the voles / bog lemmings were the mainstay. His catch is more constant as well, but he does have more trail so its hard to compare on an equal basis. Most of the Yukon trappers I know dont worry to much about over harvesting because there is so much country even on our own lines that are never trapped.

Dirt you used my favourite word that everyone keeps telling me isn't a word but I know what it means! ...".irregardless"

That crash that occurred in 05-06 was also when the CDC were testing and found that what a lot of small mammals had was there was quite a bit of Hanta virus that whipped the population of the deer mice and meadow voles.
There was a marten caught in Kenora Ontario on the Manitoba boarder that was collared in Timmins just weeks before. There was a very large take in Manitoba that year.

With some of the hair being analized for food being consumed it will be interesting when those studies are published.

This is what crash year early harvest looks like here.

2012 41% male ........YOY to adult female ratio 2 to 5............% harvest adult female 47%

2016 52% male........YOY to adult female ratio 7 to 10.........% harvest adult female 33%

2018 25% male........YOY to adult female ratio 2 to 5...........% harvest adult females 62%

No starving males are coming through from over the Alaska Range or across the Ocean.

When the baby crop pretty much fails, the only thing left is what I left the year before. Primarily Adult females, if I did my job right.

IMO it would be stupid to kill my breeders that ain't worth much anyway.

Yes, I know, that's a lot of crashes. I'm getting a little tired of nursing them back.

P.S. I agree it takes, depending on voles, about two years to nurse them back to average.

Dirt -

Very interesting data. Kinda surprising you have any marten at all with those ratios. Good on you for farming your area.

What were the sample sizes during those years?
What were the various ratios during the intervening years?
How are you distinguishing between YOY and ADU on the females?
Is your second column ("YOY to adult female ratio") all YOYs or just the female YOYs?
Are you setting traps on the ground or elevated?
I'm assuming you're on the south side of the Alaska Range?

Real interesting, man! Thanks for posting this info.

That is a lot of questions. I'll answer a some. I always use elevated sets. South side. All YOY's, Checking muscle gap on top of heads( so some error). Sorry, I'm not checking all my data years. Some years, if I'm not concerned by indicators such as no voles and poor sign, I may not even monitor YOY. On normal years, harvest consist of over 50% YOY and somewhere around 60/40 males to females.

Last year (a building year from the 2016 crash) I trapped lite, ended up with a 2.7 YOY to adult female. Adult female harvest was 17% of harvest. Male to female ratio was 65/35. YOY was 46% of harvest.

Most crashes here are vole related. You can see them coming. These frequent crashes were not common during the previous three decades.

Interesting about the Hanta Virus. I've wondered about that before. Our mice and vole population was real low here for a few years, but is really coming back now.

Isn't it over 1000 km from Timmins to Kenora?? I know in the southeast Yukon where i trap marten home ranges are much bigger than the 1 or 2 miles they claim, and I also know our marten will move long distances at times, but 1000 km is a huge move. I've never bought into the theory that animals will stay in one place and starve to death, when the food supply dries up they will continually move in their search for food. I would like to see more collared data on marten, I think their movement would surprise some.

Ask any Kenora resident where they live? The response is that they are closer to Victoria BC than Queens Park...government of Ontario's government offices.

Getting that data....mmmmm. Interesting that the trapper wanted compensation for the damages the Radio saddle did to the under fur and guard hair, he was not compensated and had to surrender the transmitter... it was a old style that you had to get a radio signal and trialangulae for location.

Last time I drove out west it took 13 hours to get to the Manitoba border from Smooth Rock Ont.,and 11 hours to get to Medicine hat Alb.the next day.

That's a long trip for a marten.Lynx travel phenominal distance also when the hares crash.

as a way-Lower 48 bystander to all this, there is nothing substantive I can offer here, but I can cheer on Waggler and all of the really neat discussion that follows his fantastic post and video. this is the heart of modern wildlife management. it is good stuff. thank you for posting

Hope this isn't a high jack of your thread waggler, if so, I apologize!

Ok, to revive this conversation. Let's talk set location duration/ trap nights, at a given locale. I find this a highly effective way of avoiding to high of a female catch rate. You will still catch some, but leaving sets in a location for a short time frame, 2-3 checks, will minimize female trap encounters. This is talking big picture, with a big line out. Not as applicable for a small line, where time and line space are an issue. Anyone else use this strategy? Set, check a couple to three times, pull and relocate miles away. Just keep moving, and remove the "cream", leaving behind seed for next season. Makes for a lot more work, as you are almost constantly working at putting in sets, but it creates a higher consistent production than pounding the same area, all season long. Any thoughts, or other points of view?

Y254, interesting your marten seem to rely so heavily on the hares. They do have a wide variety of diet, that changes drastically, seasonally, around here. Collars on marten are a bad deal, if you want saleable fur. Our nearly 30 year old collar studies showed long range travels, in very short time spans. Also helped establish estimates for home range size, locate dens, resting/ bedding locations, etc. Unfortunately, the collars ruined the fur, and killed marten, in many instances. The collars were abrading off most of the fur, then chafing against the skin, and causing infection, in some cases. Technology has come a long way, and maybe a better, lighter collar is available now?

I can see where that method could be very beneficial. I have never tried it and likely won't. I suspect it is a lot easier to do that in SE rather than the interior where moving a set many miles requires breaking a lot of trail with a lot of chopping and deep snow. I think that would be the limiting factor here.

Rather than a collar on marten , why not a chip injected under the skin ? The technology is old enough that it shouldn't be terribly expensive

Is there such technology that "tracks" chips? Or would the chipped marten have to be harvested, chip turned in, harvest location then recorded?
The study T4E refers to used telemetry collars, if I remember correctly.

Yes although I dont worry about over trapping as much as some, ( because of the abundance of refuge) I do use this strategy. I have about 60 km of usable trail right now, and am adding more every year. Instead of fighting to keep that much trail open all season, I trap it in sections. I will set out a section of trail, leave it for 3-4 checks, then pull it and set out the next section. Usually I do 30km at a time. How often I check depends on sign. Most years Im OK to check every six days, but have seen it where I needed to check more often or I lose fur to cannibalism. This way Im usually trapping one section for about 3-weeks. It is very effective at minimizing female catch.

I learned this from a guy down in BC. His catch is pretty consistently 300-plus marten a year. He traps each section of line for two weeks, ( two checks) and then pulls his traps and moves to the next section.

My youngest daughter and her husband are out on their new line right now. The line they bought is a good one. It has always produced good numbers of marten for a Yukon line. ( 200-plus every year) The guy they bought it from used this method as well, so they are doing the same thing. They just pulled their south lines after 3-checks. Their YOY ratio is almost 90% and the female catch is under 25%.

How far did marten travel in the collar studies?? They started doing a collar study in Watson Lake back in the 90s but the biologist quit before any data was put together so we never knew what he found.

Ken I could be wrong but I dont think they can track with the chips can they??

I believe they can. We had a teacher here several years ago that "chipped" a bunch of swans and was able to track them on their migration south.


We had a study done about 70 miles east of here several years ago. If I remember correctly one marten was trapped 80 miles from where he was tagged. I'm sure that must have been an extreme. Gulo will have much better info on that.

It would be really interesting to me to see how far they actually do move. I know they do, what I dont know is how far. On my trapline and many others, 20-miles would put them out of reach for the most part.

Yeah I am sure they move just from witnessing "the wave" a few times. No idea where they came from or where they went

There you go, Y254 explained it better than me! Just rotate on down the line a ways, pulling sets after a few checks.
This study was using telemetry collars tracked by plane, and on the ground. Also numbered metal ear tags, and implant chips, similar to coded wire tags in salmon. The implants were either scanned on live trapped marten (researchers), or recovered from carcasses, just under the skin, (trappers). This was a joint effort involving ADF&G, trappers, and another University based research team. Off hand, I recall one collared marten that had moved over 60 miles in a matter of weeks, I believe. I think there is research occurring out on Kuiu Island now, possibly?? Not sure, as I have no involvement with that one.

Y254, are you and others doing this from one cabin? Do you have a cabin every 30 km? If you have more than one cabin do you have to get back to a "main" cabin by the end of the season?

mt

I have cabins at two different locations and am building a third right now. Prefabbing it here at home and will move it out after Christmas.

My daughter and her husband can do it all from their main cabin although they have several cabins at the end of some of their longer runs so they can overnight when needed. My base camp is on my main trail out so I always end up there.

Take the cream and move. Does not normally pay to check the same traps after they have been out 3 or 4 weeks. Catch rate almost always goes down. Constantly, pulling areas and resetting new areas during the season. I didn't know this was some special technique? Yes, this does mean constantly cutting and breaking trail. It feels a lot like work.

I'm not making any claim that this reduces female catch, but on a normal recruitment year, I can see where more mobile YOYs could plug a trap before a resident adult female finds it.