I don't think so. More than once I have caught an entire family group the same night within yards of each other............early November

I think here they are. I can't remember too many times, if ever, where I saw tracks of family coming through like you see with otter. It might vary, depending.

There were no marten in the chapleau crown game preserve those years,T4E,(7000+ sq km refugia roughly between Wawa and Timmins) and none in the far north,according to the bios, another area barely trapped which absolutely dwarfs the CCGP.

The year before the big crash,marten had abandoned their home ranges which they will do when the prey base disappears.Lots of big adults in the harvest that year.Some are of the inclination to trap hard when Marten abandon their home range as most will likely not make it anyway,others say Stop trapping like we would normally do when the number of adult females rises in the harvest.

It made no difference anyway in the subsequent two years it took the marten to start coming back.

Boco,
Thanks for the reply and info! I find this an interesting occurrence. Don't you have a fairly wide prey base ie. microtines, rabbits, hares, grouse, ptarmigan, squirrels, song birds, etc, aside from carrion (winter kill, predator kills, raptor kills etc), berries, fruit, etc, etc...? Did all food sources disappear, or just their main diet of microtines? In your best educated guess, what do you think caused the shortage? Dispersal out of the area, due to food shortage? Starvation? Lack of reproduction? A combination of all three?

In my experience, any time you see a harvest comprised mainly of adults, in good numbers, the next two years will be rebuilding years, where harvest needs to be minimized. On the year of mainly good numbers of adults in the harvest, my strategy has always been to harvest as normal, (normal amount of sets) but pull the line early. This generally harvests the bulk of the males, and minimizes female harvest. My female harvest will always go up late season, and around new and full moons. After the high adult only population year, where the adults are roaming, presumably looking for food, and harvest availability is very good, I curtail efforts for the next two years (fewer sets, and pull early). This give reproduction a chance to oversupply the carrying capacity again, which is what we are ideally after, (harvesting the surplus, that would otherwise die of natural causes)

Anytime the all adult harvest scenario harvest happens, you can COUNT on at least 2 years of minimal production. This is due to females needing to be born, raised to breeding age, bred, eventually implant, and hopefully have enough food for successful pregnancies. This scenario takes a MINIMUM of a couple years. The recovery period rarely would include a mass relocation back into the low population region, as the crashes in my experience follow the microtine crash. Meaning minimal food in the area that has crashed. So I would say a 2 year minimum recovery until the population is rapidly rising is normal, unless there is a nearby area of refugia, that has maintained a stronger population, for them to disperse from.

white17,
My experience is the same as yours. I have numerous times, up into December, watched what I assume to be sibling groups or mother and young, in up to groups of 4. Maybe it is a matter of habitat quality? More dense food sources allowing denser populations? I know both Dirt and yourself have the experience and knowledge to know what's happening on your lines, so interesting observations that you have both seen a different pattern there.......

In all the years I have been trapping marten in this country,I have only seen 3 times when the marten abandoned their home ranges en masse.It is a fairly rare occurrence.While the refugia system of management works fairly well most years,when the resident marten abandon their home ranges en masse due to widespread small mammal failure the refugia method does not work at those times.I am in a unique area to notice when this happens as in the 3 times I have seen it,the indicator was a very high catch of very large marten(they come down from around James Bay,these are very different marten than the boreal marten here)starting in late December early January.
The main food source for our marten is the small mammals,like voles.In late winter,some years say around march, when a heavy crust impedes the marten from accessing the small mammals under the snow,they depend on rabbits and you often see them running down rabbits and catching them easily this time of year-see it all the time.The cree word for marten is Wapishstan,which translates to rabbit chaser.I believe that when lynx numbers are high,the smaller female marten cannot compete with the lynx and the larger male marten for rabbits at this critical time of year.As you know a female marten will re absorb the blastocyst if they are in poor condition this time of year,leading to a reproductive failure.These are in my opinion much more common occurrences,and lead to the one year crashes and subsequent rebound that is by far the norm here in the marten cycle.
And I know that cree trappers historically shoot owls and hawks.years ago when I asked a neighbor why he killed these birds his answer was fairly simple-"I kill what eats what I eat".It was the age old way of thinning the competition for rabbits which are snared heavily in winter by people living on the land.Some years there are an abundance of owls in this country and I believe they not only have an impact on the marten directly but by impacting the rabbit and small mammal populations which the marten depend on.
So there are quite a few variables,and overtrapping at the wrong time plays into it but only partially.I believe overtrapping impedes the recovery more so than leading to the crash in the first place.If a trapper keeps an eye on the ratios of juveniles/males and adult females as he harvests,he will have a window into what is happening with the resource,and this will help him not overtrap at any time.
There are several methods that help exclude adult females from the harvest,but that is for another discussion.

Such information compared and shared is so important. Like the pendulum gravitating to plum alignment.

Thank you, trapped4ever.

I am transfixed.

And enjoying to the full in my learning from all knowledgeable input.

So which do you think caused your shortages, the three times you mention, Boco? Relocation? Starvation? Reproductive failure? Or a combination of all three?

We've had this conversation a few times now, and I'm a might slow, but I honestly can't fathom what you are recommending is a better management strategy than refugia? Just watching your ratios, and pulling accordingly, limiting effort, or in your extreme low cases, not setting at all? Or are you simply stating that no amount of refugia will help, in the type of extreme crashes/ relocation, you've seen? That I would concur with. However, untrapped refugia is the only thing in our control. Obviously, if you are in a high pressure area, you can't control all that goes on surrounding your line. However, not setting your line at all, or not setting portions, in itself creates refugia. Hence the one thing that IS in my control. Ideally, enough quality refugia will maintain a good breeding population, to disperse into the trapped areas. I can't control prey species, weather, relocation, reproduction, ratios, etc, THE ONE thing that is controllable, is refugia. Do you agree with that, or am I sounding crazy? By the time you've established you are seeing a ratio you don't like, you've already killed those adult females! It will be interesting to see how wagglers female release program works out.
I've said this before, but with the proper amount of refugia, in my area, when the population is climbing, I can't trap enough animals to keep the population from climbing the next year, when the crash is imminent, I can not trap at all, they will still crash. I play a very minor part in the population dynamic, normally just targeting the surplus number of animals, above the carrying capacity, which varies, depending upon prey species populations.

I also STRONGLY agree with your statement that overtrapping impedes recovery, and does NOT lead to the crash. Good info, thanks!

The only 2 year near total disappearance of marten documented here in this country around 2005 was due to a widespread,extended small mammal crash according to the bios.The reasons for this remain unexplained as far as I know.And there may well have been a perfect storm type scenario in play in the interconnected ecosystems that year also but these things are very hard to correlate.The disappearance of marten that time included areas of prime large refugia.
Small mammal crashes occur regularly but not extended ones.After a crash to near zero,small mammals being prolific breeders rebound quickly and in numbers.Some years you cannot cross a grassy beaver dam without causing dozens of them to scurry out from under the grass.Shrews also reach high numbers,with several chewing up bait in every box some years.
Protecting core marten habitat in this country is important.It does not have to be overly large as long as it is connected to other core habitat which may or may not be trapped.In this country there are many large untrapped areas,and even in areas of more trapping pressure there are large areas that do not get trapped,like the chapleau crown game preserve,nippissing crown game preserve,some large provincial parks like Algonquin.and some smaller ones also.The biggest factor contributing to low marten numbers from year to year on some traplines here is fragmented habitat,mostly from logging practices or large forest fires.The marten cannot successfully disperse from refugia into areas that have been trapped or depleted naturally.

We know there are several methods of managing marten-using home range size to exclude some adult female territory,the traditional native method of not trapping after December,and the refugia method.

In all cases the goal is to protect the Adult breeding females.Juvenile females are the smallest most likely of the species to succumb to starvation,predation,cannibalism etc.You will never exclude all Adult female marten in the harvest on a conventional marten line.For me the goal is to keep the number higher than 4 to 1 adult female..

The method that has worked well for me over the years is to sex and age my harvest while using trapping methods that exclude the capture of adult female marten .By doing this I know which years are safe to continue trapping to the end of the season,or to quit early.


Every marten trapper,in my opinion should familiarize himself with the various methods of marten management and like waggler,work out a combination that proves successful over the long term.It takes many years on the land and the sharing of information between trappers to be a good fur manager for all species on your line.


I think we are very fortunate to have a registered trapline system here in most of Canada as it allows the fur harvester to be the frontline manager of his resource.

I believe the same holds true for most of the Alaska trappers as you basically have the same system only not registered.

".I believe overtrapping impedes the recovery more so than leading to the crash in the first place."

Bingo!

This is why the trappers north of me have few marten. Because the pound it irregardless of conservation. If they knew, or cared, what they were doing they would harvest a lot more long term by harvesting more wisely. The marten they get probably come from the refugia I provide in my area.

Hey Dirt we are in the "its all about me generation". Screw the trappers that have farmed their area and they will trap on top of a well established existing line or claim its theirs! Thats been my experience anyway. Farming is not in their DNA.
Snap

Lots of good info here. I think it varies greatly depending on the geographic makeup of the area you trap. I've checked the stomachs on marten on my trapline for many years and I would say the hare is their main source of food over at least the southern half of my line. I've noticed my best years are when the hare cycle is high as well.

The line to the east of me however has very few rabbits but lots of lemmings/voles. The trapper who owned it for many years also checked stomach contents, and not surprisingly he found the voles / bog lemmings were the mainstay. His catch is more constant as well, but he does have more trail so its hard to compare on an equal basis. Most of the Yukon trappers I know dont worry to much about over harvesting because there is so much country even on our own lines that are never trapped.

Dirt you used my favourite word that everyone keeps telling me isn't a word but I know what it means! ...".irregardless"

That crash that occurred in 05-06 was also when the CDC were testing and found that what a lot of small mammals had was there was quite a bit of Hanta virus that whipped the population of the deer mice and meadow voles.
There was a marten caught in Kenora Ontario on the Manitoba boarder that was collared in Timmins just weeks before. There was a very large take in Manitoba that year.

With some of the hair being analized for food being consumed it will be interesting when those studies are published.

This is what crash year early harvest looks like here.

2012 41% male ........YOY to adult female ratio 2 to 5............% harvest adult female 47%

2016 52% male........YOY to adult female ratio 7 to 10.........% harvest adult female 33%

2018 25% male........YOY to adult female ratio 2 to 5...........% harvest adult females 62%

No starving males are coming through from over the Alaska Range or across the Ocean.

When the baby crop pretty much fails, the only thing left is what I left the year before. Primarily Adult females, if I did my job right.

IMO it would be stupid to kill my breeders that ain't worth much anyway.

Yes, I know, that's a lot of crashes. I'm getting a little tired of nursing them back.

P.S. I agree it takes, depending on voles, about two years to nurse them back to average.

Dirt -

Very interesting data. Kinda surprising you have any marten at all with those ratios. Good on you for farming your area.

What were the sample sizes during those years?
What were the various ratios during the intervening years?
How are you distinguishing between YOY and ADU on the females?
Is your second column ("YOY to adult female ratio") all YOYs or just the female YOYs?
Are you setting traps on the ground or elevated?
I'm assuming you're on the south side of the Alaska Range?

Real interesting, man! Thanks for posting this info.

That is a lot of questions. I'll answer a some. I always use elevated sets. South side. All YOY's, Checking muscle gap on top of heads( so some error). Sorry, I'm not checking all my data years. Some years, if I'm not concerned by indicators such as no voles and poor sign, I may not even monitor YOY. On normal years, harvest consist of over 50% YOY and somewhere around 60/40 males to females.

Last year (a building year from the 2016 crash) I trapped lite, ended up with a 2.7 YOY to adult female. Adult female harvest was 17% of harvest. Male to female ratio was 65/35. YOY was 46% of harvest.

Most crashes here are vole related. You can see them coming. These frequent crashes were not common during the previous three decades.

Interesting about the Hanta Virus. I've wondered about that before. Our mice and vole population was real low here for a few years, but is really coming back now.

Isn't it over 1000 km from Timmins to Kenora?? I know in the southeast Yukon where i trap marten home ranges are much bigger than the 1 or 2 miles they claim, and I also know our marten will move long distances at times, but 1000 km is a huge move. I've never bought into the theory that animals will stay in one place and starve to death, when the food supply dries up they will continually move in their search for food. I would like to see more collared data on marten, I think their movement would surprise some.

Ask any Kenora resident where they live? The response is that they are closer to Victoria BC than Queens Park...government of Ontario's government offices.

Getting that data....mmmmm. Interesting that the trapper wanted compensation for the damages the Radio saddle did to the under fur and guard hair, he was not compensated and had to surrender the transmitter... it was a old style that you had to get a radio signal and trialangulae for location.

Last time I drove out west it took 13 hours to get to the Manitoba border from Smooth Rock Ont.,and 11 hours to get to Medicine hat Alb.the next day.

That's a long trip for a marten.Lynx travel phenominal distance also when the hares crash.

as a way-Lower 48 bystander to all this, there is nothing substantive I can offer here, but I can cheer on Waggler and all of the really neat discussion that follows his fantastic post and video. this is the heart of modern wildlife management. it is good stuff. thank you for posting

Hope this isn't a high jack of your thread waggler, if so, I apologize!

Ok, to revive this conversation. Let's talk set location duration/ trap nights, at a given locale. I find this a highly effective way of avoiding to high of a female catch rate. You will still catch some, but leaving sets in a location for a short time frame, 2-3 checks, will minimize female trap encounters. This is talking big picture, with a big line out. Not as applicable for a small line, where time and line space are an issue. Anyone else use this strategy? Set, check a couple to three times, pull and relocate miles away. Just keep moving, and remove the "cream", leaving behind seed for next season. Makes for a lot more work, as you are almost constantly working at putting in sets, but it creates a higher consistent production than pounding the same area, all season long. Any thoughts, or other points of view?

Y254, interesting your marten seem to rely so heavily on the hares. They do have a wide variety of diet, that changes drastically, seasonally, around here. Collars on marten are a bad deal, if you want saleable fur. Our nearly 30 year old collar studies showed long range travels, in very short time spans. Also helped establish estimates for home range size, locate dens, resting/ bedding locations, etc. Unfortunately, the collars ruined the fur, and killed marten, in many instances. The collars were abrading off most of the fur, then chafing against the skin, and causing infection, in some cases. Technology has come a long way, and maybe a better, lighter collar is available now?