I've read in this forum (many times) that VALERIAN is attractive to bobcats, is equal to or more then real cat nip. In the last Trapper Post, Mike Marsyada article totally rebuts thats."While we've known for a long time that Valerian is not at all attractive to bobcats" Been waiting for someone to bring this up in this forum. What your opinions NOW ????

x2!

valerian put cat to sleeeeeeeeeeepppppp......zzzzzzzzzzzz's ,

(cat), it take you decades to figure this out?

ahhh 'cat valerian' , I seen that too long ago, cat fall on your set to nappy /---*

There was several opinions on here that Valerian would stimulate Bobcats into utopia. If you agree or disagree please share. 2oz of tinctured and 2oz of powder VALERIAN maybe for sale ! Yes i bought into it ! LOL

Valerian root powder, fluid or tincture will stimulate a cats interest with sometimes hilarious results. It will also cause rubbing on the material as do other ingredients. Does it have a calming effect over time? It may very well depending on the concentration amount and the exposure time to the material.

I am not concerned with the long term affect when exposed to the material, only that it promotes some interest and it gets a response from the animal.

If an animal is curious it can be caught if it spends that much time investigating. It is a natural occurring material and not a drug. That is what a trapper wants in a product. Something that instills interest and appeals to their basic nature of who and how they react instinctively.

I have long used and tested Valerian in various forms with good success. Built into a formula it works and its even better with other ingredients. It makes for a very effective product. Each has and is entitled to their own opinion and their findings.

I can only state in my many years of experience it has proven to be a valuable individual ingredient as well as a blended ingredient. I have tested all the ingredients that we have in inventory. I have in the past and we will continue to use them to this day. If there is minimal or very little interest in an ingredient then it has no value for my use or to purchase or the interest for making tinctured agents or other components from it for future use.

I would suggest testing some material on local felines or setting up a trail cam or two on some applied monitoring sites to form your own opinion. I will continue to use the material as I have for many years in our formulas that call for its use. I will also continue to test and search out any ingredients or materials that prove to give me and my customers the edge while in the field. Research & Development is a big part of what we do here as well it should be.
You cannot be a progressive on the cutting edge of formulation work and fail to continue to work towards continued advancement in the performance in your products.

THE SECRET to being a great lure maker....the first four words of the last paragraph in Bob's post

yep

I've thought about trying that, i just don't know ! Very good advice !!!

Bobbie sleeps with them cats, hhhheeeeyyy wheres the valerian I GOTTA GET MORE SLEEP, Ahhhhh thank you ..

This is America , I still believe, even though there is a barnyard going on in D.C.so the freedom of anyone person opinion still is American !
I agree with Mike Marsyada he was there back yonder picking Mr. Nick's brain, before the Good 'Ole Days came, ingredients were gloriously Good Quality, Good 'Ole Nick! God Bless him .
One can figure that someone over and over told them that , and over time, time, time, anybody would believe that , No matter what it is concerning , what worked then may not work,

most EVERYTHING in animal attractors today , Will Never be the Great Quality it once was, valerian is not the same valerian as it it once was . Same name, same officialis , No,
there was a day back when valerian was a great stout useful material . Even castor from beaver are different, pollution , poisons, and ALL , same, No .
advent of big farming big box stores big GM that fell down , America is NOT the same, and neither is valerian .
The earths soil has changed, over and over , and millions buried in it or in the wind that blew there precious ashes into it . Sure people died before, but there was not ALL these artificials , same NOT .

Most everything is artificial today, and getting worst , in some form or another and the material used that whacked at the old world valerian to cause it to become liquid is artificial and not really for it's purpose .
Is valerian , really, valerian , today, NO, it's something , IMHO

We make most of our own Valerian ingredients from pure root powder. It is as good now as it was when I began using it in the 70's. I see no difference in the quality in the way we develop the material or the results. I have learned over the years how to work with it to maximize its use and effectiveness in how it is processed.

Sweet corn I ate as a kid still tastes as good as it does now. Some things definitely have changed and will continue to change depending upon what you are referring too. Other things you learn to develop as much as you can with your abilities or you learn to work around things to maintain product quality and consistency.

A good formulator knows how to make much of his own use material when ever possible from original first generation based materials. If you dont you are subject to what is sold to you. I know the difference in things from years back as I still have materials to use as reference base line product and what they should be like. Todays young folks have to live a lifetime to learn what I have in what I have had to do to keep good products alive. No doubt there is some garbage out there for sale with little active value.

I guess if you dont know the difference it wont bother you.:)

I also make my own valerian products from valerian root powder. My testing coincides with Bob's. It does hold a good attraction to cats. Perhaps Mike got some inferior valerian, and didn't get the response we have gotten.

Beaver castor is as good as I've ever seen it during my use of it. Perhaps that nasty northern stuff has gone through a change, but these southern sweet gum eating beavers have been producing top quality castor.

To make a dyeing 100 grams of valerian root it takes 50 centilitres of alcohol at 70 °.

I like Valerian root powder as well and during testing I have gotten the responses I wanted. Good quality Valerian root powder has a lot of odor in tinctured and in powder form and should fill a room when you open container/jug/barrel/bag. It should also remain odorous until put away, depending on how well the seal is on what it's stored in, if it has a weak seal its odor will seep out.

I find it interesting that the even experts have conflicting opinions. I'll be the first to say Im dumb as (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) when it comes to formulating lures and knowing about ess oils and uses. I just like the art of it .Thats why i come here, TO LEARN !!! Thanks to all that have shared some knowledge .

You don't need to be an expert to be good or very good at something. Trappers who buy "proven" bait & lure from "expert" commercial makers shouldn't have to buy all types of the same lure if they are all proven and made by "experts", whether they are on location or not considering how well an animal can sense odors, and with the "calling" power they claim to have....one would think anyway. The Mrs. makes some of the best darn buff chicken around and makes it in large quantities for our kids team parties and events. Pan is virtually licked clean afterwards, that make her an "expert" at making that plate because she's been doing that for years? I don't think so,I think she understands what sauces does what to get the taste for the plate. We all need help from time to time, but don't get "trapped" going down that road because X uses name brand X and buys X ingredients and all the latest and greatest "cool" supplies etc.. Lots of folks become dependent and can't think on their own when they are constantly fed the information they ask for that could easily part in many ways. Obtain knowledge in the field you seek, getting out there to field test, and thinking for yourself when testing theories will put you ahead of the game. It's easy to ask for ingredients and what works with X and you'll get 101 different answers on the same ingredient. As you can see by the thousands of posts on the internet, they all have their own twist that makes it "magic". Simplicity, and location is really the key, repetitive but true. Those that follow will never lead. Good Luck out there

Most of us younger generation guys will have to reinvent the wheel! Most of us will never know what the originals smelled like or there reactions.

Animals are still being taken with the products that are available today. So would the logic be to not make something because you can't get the "original" even though you are getting all the responses from a product you want? If it keeps an animal at a location to increase the likelihood of that trappers chances in connecting on that target is it wrong because their not using the "original"? We know the old timers are watching reruns of life when it comes to things like this.. times are changing.

I don't know an old timer that isn't still testing and trying new things, They just don't talk about it.

What was pointed out to me and was a light bulb moment . It's about the chemicals that made up the old materials. Like real cat nip compared to synthetic cat nip oil. But then again the old materials could very greatly in quality. To were synthetics are more consistent.
TIMES are changing ! Quality lure and bait makers are a dying breed and a dying art. 1-The demand is down 2- the materials getting harder to get and 3- Finding a young person that can handle the riggers of bait and lure making.

Can't argue that..so my ? to you would be if an "expert" old timer who uses "authentic" ingredients and makes a "proven" lure why would you need so many? If its real quality stuff one brand should do the trick based of of that theory, because its "real right? Animals are unpredictable just when you think you know them, they teach you a new trick. You study animals enough to get a little grasp on their lifestyle, you don't need to walk into a bait and lure room with a lab coat and a respirator on.

JMO...Trappers and trapping are a dying breed and art. Take a look at posts through out the forums and actual people who trap. I know many guys who trap and work for trapping companies doing adc work. More and more rely too much on bait and lure rather than their ability to actually set a trap and set themselves up for success. There are folks out there with shelves of "proven" bait and lure made by "experts", and still looking for that "authentic" batch of goodies because their trapping ability is lacking.

That is a factual reality. So many younger trappers seem to want to depend upon good lure and baits to give them the edge or success whether fur trapping or ADC trapping. They haven't had enough time to learn the skills of location, trap placement as the needed understanding what you see and recognize in animal sign and behavior.

You can watch all the videos you want but it still takes many years in the field to become proficient at consistent trapping skills.

If you can get field experience through instruction or mentoring from another skilled trapper that will sure help speed up your learning. It will also give you a short cut to becoming more successful without all the extra years of self learning and the animals teaching you things.

If there is no intervention it will take considerable time to learn on your own. Nothing wrong with that, you will figure things out along the way and it is a challenging but rewarding experience. That is how I learned and it made me understand much more over time.

I do agree with knowing and understanding your target animal and understanding location. A location is just a spot if it don't have a interesting smell to generate the foot movement.Ive never felt as if a yote or most any predator besides a coon or grinner was working a smell for hunger only.Sure food odors demand the biggest interest.Although in my eyes curiosity and desire to wear it trump food on a regular basis .Most of the best authenic no longer available to day originals were high powered curiosity scents. I agree with cat 4 fish the chemical make up is what my attention goes to now.And as stated experience will still be the most rewarding teacher. Most any odd smell will attract a big part of the yotes but a smell that keeps them coming back repeatedly until caught is the ultimate goal.Which im sure is the goal of any bait or lure maker pro or novice.Im surprised you older pros don't give a week school on bait and lure formulating. Making my own stuff makes me pay considerable more attention to details at sets compared to a proven smell.I've never understood what good knowledge is if it goes to the grave.Passed on knowledge becomes a legacy.Im serious about the bait and lure formulating school!Free labor to aid in some of your nasty tasks.Bob id clean mink glands for a day for a weeks worth of dos and donts. A legal contract to guarantee your secrets stay secrets as long as you or your name was attached to a product.Wouldnt be unheard of

When I have questions or I'm stuck and am working on new things, bet ya bottom dollar I pick up the phone and make a call out to a bait and lure maker who I trust, and trusts me, no shame in that. This gentleman won't just give the answer though, he throws it out there in a riddle, and makes you think for it. Which then opens up lots of doors for other things that work well with that material or what I'm trying to do. That's when I try to get fancy though.

GOOD ADVISE TDHP the good thing about being a novice failure isn't as big of a deal.All learning curves require failure. Those failures are still are still a success. I feel learning what not to do is as important as the ladder! Being on a uneven playing field I always felt as if I was imposing asking advise from a guy making his living from his skills

I agree, Tony. Lots of great recipes have gone to the grave with the formulator. I guess most lure makers would rather try to sell their formulas when they are ready to call it quits.

There is a bunch of sharing on this forum. I've learned a lot over the years...and have tried to share my knowledge, as well.

I think we as trappers get to worked up on the animal working the set hard that we miss trap placement, and I mean with not only foot holds but also cable and cages. Yes we want the bait or lure to keep the animal there so don't take this out of context, but if the trap is in the right position then how long does it take to catch the animal? We all have seen vids on this site of the target animal that comes in and gets caught on the first or second steps before they even start to work the bait or lure. or go right into the cage with out circling it. The blind set be it a foot trap, cable or even a cage trap, placed where the animal is going to walk first and foremost, then bait or lure added along with the visual of a hole or cow chip, dead stick what ever, all work together to trigger as many senses in a positive, is what catches the animal. That sounds simple and to folks doing this stuff for years and have learned it, well, it is simple. But perhaps like Bob stated, taking years to learn it, we have forgotten when in the beginning it wasn't simple LOL. I am showing my grandson many things and I have to keep telling myself this stuff is complicated to him because he is not thinking on the same lines at one season of trapping as I am with trapping for 50 years. Is valerian a good ingredient? Yes in the right formulations and with the right intent. but just like every ingredient it ain't going to work all the time. NOTHING DOES.

jonsie in a perfect world you are 100 % correct! Sometimes I hit the sweet spot dead center but other times. I get a predator that forgot to read the manual so I need the extra steps Im guilty of relying on a smell to much.. Not to get them to a set but keep them at a set. Hardly ever do I use what is considered a true ldc . I lack a good cat population but my tests have shown predators show attraction towards valerian.Sweeter smelling meats pair well with valerian from my limited testing

Valerian is a valuable ingredient when used in the right percentages for a lure or bait. As I have stated in earlier comments on this topic.

If folks who use nothing more than a chunk of bait and urine or just urine that's processed today whether cut or not and can double the catch rate of many who do use bait and lure, what does that say about authentic ingredients pertaining to ingredient lists in bait and lure vs knowledge of the art of trapping and luck?

There may be more to it than knowledge of the art of trapping and luck. The biggest factor I've found is population density of the target animal. Where the target animal has a high population, they will be attracted to most anything. Where the target animal population is sparse, they are much more wary and inclined to be much more finicky. Where the population of the target animal is sparse, knowledge of the art of trapping becomes much more important

You said it right there Paul. I have stated that for years since that has been my experience as well.

Sir, I knew the animal population comment which is true would be the next issue when it comes to catch rate, but like any other excuse..it could only be used for so long before the individual has to look into their ability to 1 find the animals and 2 set themselves up for the catch. I can bait a dirt hole or drop a chunk of bait in my yard and have zero visits from animals if they aren't there, even using some top notch lure. Same could be said for bait and lure in the field to get responses, even though the lure claims to call animals from miles away. I've seen zero activity on what most say is the best ldc on the market along with a commercial bait that is supposed to be the best in the country according to others and I would assume they are using top notch ingredients if it's the best in the country. Even if the animals weren't in the area, they sould've been due to the calling power of them ingredients..as they claim. Both you and Mr Jameson know your stuff, I get it and respect it. So, I guess the only question is why are there so many lures that claim to calm the animals down and get them to drop their guard, but still have trappers filling shelves with bait and lure and still continue to fail on their targets when they have animal tracks walking right by their set by a couple feet? One would think if these ingredients can call an animal from a mile, it should be able to get an animal to at least stop to take a whiff of them authentic ingredients...right?

There are so many variables to weather an animal is attracted or not. I agree population density is huge, but sometimes the animal is just not in the mood, period. Doesn;t matter what magic potion we use.
When I'm thinking of trying a new attractor I ask the maker one question, Will this stuff stop every passing animal? If he says yes I walk.. Place the set within 3 feet of the line of travel , both sides. Bed the trap where the target wants to step. Then wait.. If they are using that location you'll catch, eventually.

I would think it should work better in high density areas or as Beav says,dumb coyotes. I expect to go in to an area and set 2 or 3 traps and have all 2 or 3 coyotes per visit not randomly one here and there. I don't wear the label as a professional bait maker but my personal stuff works better than any other stuff I have ever bought,other than when Rich was still making his bait.

High populations can make a good trapper look great low populations can make a great Trapper look bad

Yep

These are the same answers for all the bait a lure questions, which are common sense..hard to trap something that isn't there" yep. Just trying to get a better grasp on what makes one lure better than the other when it comes to authentic ingredients..as some say? Things may smell better than others when combined, animal might not be in the mood..ingredients that send an animal into another world..uh huh. that's it? If you went out and bought a top of the line hockey stick with all the bells and whistles IE Micro Feel for contoured comfort monocomp onepiece design for excellent shaft consistency qrt taper for whip-quick responsiveness Textreme carbon fibe for lighter performance...would it improve your performance on the ice if you lack the skill to be out there? If all these baits, lures and ingredients are supposed to do all of these things...why so many problems and so many brands being sold when one with the "authentic" ingredients should be enough?

Animals are alot like us, some like this or that some don't. In low population areas it takes variety to get results. Ive trapped in both high and low, low populations is a bit different. They'll never be just one or even two. It also changes with the time of year. The lure that works for some trappers won't work for others. But, there are some that are pretty darn special.. No I ain't naming those LOL

lol, I hear ya. So, what good is a bottle of lure filled with 30 + years of knowledge and "authentic" ingredients in it, but has no value to the trapper using it for a successful catch rate? When folks say the "secret" is .... how much of a secret is it, if it doesn't work for the trapper? Or.........are the animals coming up and things don't look natural or any other thing that is said on why an animal doesn't approach the set or cage? Nothing to do with skill level in presenting a site to an animal??? Animal curiosity is natural, so why does it take 30 years of experience to make an effective bait or lure?? Why pay for trapping classes if all that is needed are jars of bait and lure with "authentic" ingredients and 30 + years of trapping experience in them if skills aren't more of an issue whether "authentic" ingredients were used or not?

Any attractor or tool is only as good as the trapper and where he puts it, period!

That is a fact.

Well at least with this thread I'll know who's bottles I'll be sniffin at the conventions.

TDHP I don't understand your seeming animosity towards lure formulators using "authentic" ingredients. What's up with that? I use synthetic, artificial and authentic ingredients. I prefer to use authentic when I can get the material, but will use synthetic and artificial when authentic isn't available.

when it comes to valerian, authentic is sure enough easy to get. while house cats don't always respond like a bobcat I still test any new valerian on our housecats. if they eat and rub on it and act kinda drunk, it has always worked on my trapline.

When it comes to valerian, all I use is authentic valerian root powder which I tincture. I don't know that there is a synthetic or artificial valerian product.

Mr. Dobbins, misunderstanding I guess, no animosity here.

Okay, it's just the way I took it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I see two types of customers on average. One type is experienced trappers who know that good lure is just one component of their system, and once they have put it all together (proper location, hard work, the right equipment, the right set presentation) they want a good lure to seal the deal.

The other type customer is seeking magic in a bottle. I make it very clear to those customers that there is no lure that can make up for the other things that make for catches, and there is no "magic" in a bottle.

That said, I agree with others in that I use authentic ingredients when I can, and synthetics when I can't get the other. I think there is no substitute for real mink glands for example.

To qualify this I am a fairly new face in the lure making game......so sure wouldn't tell anyone else how to do it. I just do as I am told by the expert.

The name is Dalton.

There are some that keep kicking a long dead horse and never quite seem to understand the basics of successful trapping. Maybe they have trouble applying those skills.

This has been stated many times by several on this topic and most all of the components of the subject.

That is why some trappers are successful and have developed skills over the line and others keep looking for the holy grail.

This post has taken on many faces LOL Many thoughts have popped up. Every experienced trapper Knows that the bait or lure is the last part of the equation. Newer trappers are looking for the magic, we all did!!!!! But at some point we find out that all the other components must come first. Do some market a little over board Yep. Do some have a problem with any one marketing anything yep.

The question about valerian real or fake can only be answered by the person formulating the product and the intent that the person has in mind. And that can only be found out by many hours and years of testing. Something most do not want to do. It takes time and the most unwanted, costs money. I use the powder mostly and it works in some formulations and may not work in another formulation.

What does 30 years in formulating have that the newer formulator does not? Does it mean that a new formulators product can not match up to a old goat formulator? Absolutely not!!!! I think mostly the experienced, they have intent, rather than the lets see what happens. I am by no means a Paul Dobbins or Bob Jameson or the many other proven lure makers reading this post, in the formulating and understanding, but after many years I find myself working on new products with intent or looking to get x response from the animal, because I have goofed up enough to see some of the things that happen bad and learned to see some of the things that are good when adding this to that, 30 years ago, I could not see anything compared to what I see today. Does it make me a better maker? IDK But I do not have the blow ups now that I use to LOL


When it comes to magic in a bottle, well we all know there is no such thing, and to a ldc we all know there is no 500 yards LOL and depending on the wind speed and open vs obstacles in that wind current, we are lucky to consistently get 50 yards let alone 100 lol although there will be times that 100 plus can be gotten in the right open wind landscape. I along with every formulator on here has put out 10 test sites and in 5 days had every one hit hard by the animal only to have 3 hit out of 10 in the next test period LOL we need testing long tern to see which ones produce the best the most.


Did I say I like valerian powder or fake stuff Yes LOL

Good post. Thank you for taking the time to share it.

So is valeric acid better if artificial or if distilled from the root?

Valerian can have effects in the valeric acid form if ingested in such a delivery form or it may have odor related effects. The latter is what I work with in our formulation. The acid form does not seem to have the better odor release mechanism associated with the pure powder form in my experience.

Valeric acid is commonly used in human consumption form for those not aware. That is commonly comprised of .8% > 1% active Valeric Acid per doze to my knowledge..

It is used by some much like melatonin is for a relaxation sleep aide of sorts. Effects vary per individual as would be expected. Others may have had another perception of this factor during its use. I can only share in regards to my own work.

I prefer using pure Valerian Root Powder that I have found to have the most dominate odor representation that I deem is meeting our standards and needs best.

From this form you may 1) use it in its raw form in a formula, 2) use it as a raw stand alone material in a neutral medium/base to present the material in the most desirable manner 3) or it may distilled or solubilized in a tinctured form to the strength that suits your best requirements.

Those are my thoughts as to your question as they relate to my usage.

Isn’t valeric acid used to preserve urine collected at fur farms?

My initial response was with valerian root pdr. or valeric acid ( pentanoic acid) use as an ingredient in odor representation within a formula.

It ( pentanoic acid ) can be used for several areas of preservation and it also has mold inhibiting properties. It is widely used in foods, grains, feeds and for its flavor enhancing properties. It has a broad spectrum chemical application allowing for many uses.

I have never used it in urine as a preservative. Some may very well do that. Clean collected urine does not need preserving. However those that have recent collected urine who may be concerned about its potential quality may well add a preservative.

A preservative can be added after straining and filtering. This process will remove the more dense particulate to help guard against accelerated bacteria growth over time while in storage.

An avid Lure Formulator is what I deem as a hybrid mix of a novice chemist and mad scientist. There have been many interesting experiences in my life as I am sure with others in the field. The learning never ceases.

Thanks Bob

Danny, are you thinking of zinc valerate?