Heres a lower catch with an Alaskan #9 like the diagram you posted shows as optimal.......which catch looks more humane to you???? The Alaskan will usually get them higher but the snow conditions were extreme in this case. I've seen a lot of wolves feet in traps and the higher the catch the less damage you will see. The foot wont even freeze if you get them high.

I remember when they didnt like a double strike on marten too, now we know the double strike is far better, and more humane.

These are the optimum strike locations as assessed by the veterinary scientists and the wolf trappers that work with the trdc.
And in my own experience with foottrapping the pad catch is the best for no foot damage.
There are some excellent wolf trappers associated with the FIC representing trappers.
I imagine you might know some.Are they as good as you? Most likely.
Your pictures mean nothing-it depends on how long the animal is in the trap.And a pass is 8 out of 10,no requirement for 100% in the real world.There is tons of data,like I said contact Gibb.He knows the data,I dont think he could release actual numbers but he can let you know about the process.
I dont think you should be disparaging the professional trappers involved with the fic from all across Canada in a roundabout way by disparaging the excellent work of the Fur Institute.

In the case of the Koro I disagree. There isn't 'tons' of data. It took them years to catch the numbers they needed and NONE were caught up here even though we offered to help. During the time they were doing the testing on the Koro, two trappers up here caught more than double the number of animals they did. The pictures I posted mean something to me because thats what I see on a regular basis. There isn't one shred of doubt in my mind which catch is more humane. A couple years ago I caught my daughters 30-pound dog in a Koro pee post set. That trap was up above the ankle and the dog didnt even limp when I released her. Another trap that shows a lot of promise is the Sleepy Creek 4-1/2 . My son has caught quite a few wolves with them now and he says they do very little damage as well.

I dont want to get into any argument,just trying to let you know how the process works.
Like I said,get a hold of Gibb he can fill you in.
There is a reason why that trap did not pass the standard.
I havent footholded any wolves in quite a few years now,but like to have the option.
Guys like Gord Klassen take tons of wolves and is on the fic.Lots of Canadian trappers take thousands of wolves.Most dont go on forums or write for magazines but are top notch wolfers just the same.

So if the trap manufacturer has to pay to have his trap tested, 2 questions come to mind.

1. Who pays the people testing the traps ?

2. Isn't it possible that the best traps may never be tested.......or certified ?

Boco, I realize how the process works, and yes I know a lot of real good wolf trappers including Gordy. Gordy and I took the same wolf trapping course up in Alaska years ago together. Gordy does a lot of writing BTW

I respect your knowledge and experience as a trapper. You are hands down one of the best fur handlers in the country. But trying to defend a decision like this just because you like the program in its entirety isn't rational. We both remember the preferred strike location they originally wanted us to target on marten. The double strike was taboo....we now know that was wrong. A double strike is preferred.

Same goes for the nonsense we were fed that if we adopted the new new standards our fur would be worth more......at the same time they were telling us this BS fur from Alaska was being sold at the sae sales ours was and still is. The type of trap used has no bearing on that end of things. To say otherwise now is lucdirous.

The fact is that most wolf trappers use snares. I do as well, but in my case I have a couple of large lakes where I trap and snares are just not effective there in most cases. Traps are, so thats what I use.

I believe the trdc wants to pass traps,but the traps must meet or exceed the standard.
That is why they offer the advice to the manufacturers to help them tweak the design to get them to pass.
I was involved in the early testing of marten traps and all the data showed double strikes on marten were good,in fact near the top.I can dig up that old study,that was in 89-90.I am not aware of anywhere that says a double strike not too far back is not optimal.
Just fyi there are at least a dozen real good wolf trappers in the Kapuskasing/Cochrane councils here.I dont consider myself in their league at all.
I hope the Koro can get passed in the near future.
I agree with you on the 3 victor-it is not a wolf trap for the northern trapper.But there is the deer eating wolf in the south where that trap will work,so why not have another tool that some trappers in the south can use?It doesnt mean you have to use that trap.Some guys like W-17 likes the mb750,and I have trapped 3 wolves with that trap.There is also the LPC that is passed.The more we get passed the better.
The more choices we have the better.But we need them to pass the aihts standard and obviously that is not impossible for trap manufacturers.

1. The manufacturer pays to certified the trap......so they would need to have so many animals caught and find trappers willing to do that.
2. Yes.


This is the page from the "restraining Traps" section. The "Killing Traps" are already mandatory.

White that is one issue that I have a beef with.There are traps that would pass the standard,but you cant force a manufacturer to pay to have them tested for use in Canada if 90% of his sales are in the states.
The TDRC needs to get money to pay for the testing that the trappers want to use.
That said there have been a ton of traps tested and passed,but more needs to be done especially for wolftraps.

Boco I think you kind of made my point for me. The Victor might very well work ok in some areas but it is next to useless to me. The whole point of my discussion on this is that the changes they want made would ruin all the things that make the Koro such a good trap to begin with. I fail to see the advantage to that. All of our early manuals told trappers they should try to avoid the double strike on marten.


W-17 as you can see from the certified traps listed for wolves, the best two wolf traps made are not on the list. In the end, Canadian trappers lose, and as usual you guys in AK win. I know from my involvement with the Koro that trap testing is quite expensive and some of the manufacturers question the process some of the trappers use....big surprise there eh! How in the world can a trapper from Ontario know what will work in my environment ?? The answer is they dont.

Large parts of Ontario are the exact same environment as you(Boreal Forest).Ontario has all ecosystems from carolinian forest in the peelee,to arctic tundra in the far north Hudson bay.and everything else in between.Only difference is your area is not as flat.But I dont think there is any fur game on mountain tops,so your trapping would be much smaller area than the far north of Ontario,

Thats actually not true. Lots of fur up high. The best marten country up here goes from about 3000 feet up to 4500 feet. I used to trap up in the Logans. Extremely deep snow, steep country. 8-feet of snow was normal conditions. You had to look hard for firewood. Wolf traps could and would get covered with thick layers of snow in no time. Just look at some of JRs pictures where hes catching wolves. High open country, plus we get severe cold snaps that can last for weeks. I've never trapped in Ontario but Robert says its much different than conditions out here. Another good friend who used to trap in Manitoba says the same thing.

Am I reading that correctly ? It looks like fall of 2020 you guys will have to use cage traps for beaver ??

Just reading from an outsiders perspective. Very interesting issues here. By looking at the page BOCO put out earlier there are a lot of traps for coyote that are certainly not on that list that are better to use than a 1.5 victor soft catch. sure does seem like about every animal friendly version of victor is on there but none of the others. Seems capitalistic to put it on the manufacturer to get their product approved and not the program to test and figure out what is best. Like i said though outsiders perspective. I believe the principle the whole system you guys have founded this on is great but knowing government is the controller and one running the hammer you should be able to see where it is going. Well I hope that is not the case but it sure seems to me to be you are going the way you thought you weren't.

Ken, I think thats just the page that refers to restraining traps. Bodygrips, snares or drowning setups will be/are still legal.

Boco you made the mistake every flatland does about the hills. On a map it is so much acres, but when you put it on a slope the volume of habitat land mass is greatly increased. 500 feet rise you can have 4 different habitats and a much larger carrying capacity.
I talked with the designer and hold your horses, they are not out of the barn just yet. They are working on the issues at hand and should have another sample of wolves captured with the changes.
Each Director of Wildlife of the provincial/ territory'.s can issue a conditional use permit.
Yukon is Hugh M still your director or has he retired ?

Thanks Dave !

No he retired. We have a younger guy now. Pretty decent guy too.

James said they wanted him to reduce spring tension by 30%, and shrink the distance between the pan and jaw, ( so catches are lower, like in Boco's drawing) and increase jaw thickness. The reduced spring tension will negatively effect the traps ability to come up out of the snow, and shrinking the distance between the pan and the jaw will make it much harder to get good solid catches in tough conditions.

You talk with Robert lately Yukon?
I havent heard from him in a while,say Hi for me if you see him.

It is too bad that some serious wolf trappers can not test these traps, but consider the cost that the wolves have to be shipped back down to V Alberta to be looked at.
I remember doing some testing in the early stages and it was like doing hoops through some holohoops standing on your head and drinking a beer and not spilling any !