Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: MNCedar]
#6779794
02/22/20 08:51 PM
02/22/20 08:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,245 Oregon
beaverpeeler
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,245
Oregon
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I have been following this thread closely as I really enjoy discussions such as this. Mark June I see you are well-written as always. It does wound me some to see your distaste for those philosophers! I do think philosophical ethics offer a chance to examine how we interact with the world. I don't recommend taking them all literally and I suspect you would agree! But a temporary consideration of how a different lens might shape a view of the world can be interesting. Humanity and human behavior was sub-par prior to enlightenment, and arguably remains so.
I have been wanting to point something out for a few pages now....I see multiple people using the word theory.
A scientific theory is a hypothesis that has accumulated a large amount of supporting evidence AND undergone a tremendous amount of scrutiny and attempts to disprove the hypothesis. This theory is an assemblage of facts that are predominantly accepted as being the probable explanation. A theory is called a theory because it has survived extensive efforts to prove the idea false and, until proven otherwise, remains seen as the probable truth for now. It is not static. It can change. The step beyond a theory is a law (I think?)
When something is irrefutably proven as unwavering fact, it becomes a law. My biology is a little rusty, but I believe this to be fairly close. Go easy on me please.
So to say something is just a theory is a misuse of words. For a theory is actually a set of facts that, for the time being, seem to interrelate to prove a point. Which is kind of a big deal...
As long as I'm posting, just a reminder that recorded history accounts for a miniscule percentage of human existence. Rocks are not carbon and there is a lot that may never be known.
AMEN!
My fear of moving stairs is escalating!
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: danny clifton]
#6779812
02/22/20 09:04 PM
02/22/20 09:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379 Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
James
"Minka"
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"Minka"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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It's not like the Gospels record eye-witness accounts. At best, those men who wrote the Gospels talked to the great-great-grandchildren of the actual witnesses (alleged) to the resurrection.
Jim
Forum Infidel since 2001
"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: Mike in A-town]
#6779830
02/22/20 09:17 PM
02/22/20 09:17 PM
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Mark June
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Mark June
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Question for you Mark.
I know there is no way to definitively answer this and would be pure conjecture, but I'll ask anyway...
Do you believe (or is there any evidence) that Paul physically wrote the letters himself? The reason I ask is that many of his letters were written while he was imprisoned. I can't imagine Roman guards being too accommodating in the pen/paper department.
Now I'm not implying the letters aren't his... Just wondering if it's possible that he dictated the letters from his cell to a visitor.
Way off topic, but just something I was curious about.
Mike Good question and trust me when I say there has been untold theological scrutiny on all this. Possibly unlike anything ever, because if Paul can be discredited, the Bible may begin to unravel, true? Early 1st century first hand accounts from other Apostles giving accounts, give credit to Paul as author (not a scribe). These men were spot accurate. If you read any of Paul's letters, you see scores of people he is with, come to see him, and on and on, so there are many first hand accounts of what Paul is doing. And these accounts would of course get passed around. Do you think if there was "bad" news... fraudulent, fake, not true.... it mighta got around? Bad news travels faster than good news true? There was no bad news about Paul. Now, whether you believed his teachings is one thing, but his authenticity is not questioned until 1600 years later. Early church fathers, investigated all this also within 100 years of Paul's life. It's interesting that not until the 18th century, is Paul's authenticity questioned. What happened in the 1700's and 1800's in the European and Western world at that time? Ahhhh. The rise of the enlightened man. The literal beginnings of the saying, "know it alls." There were university trained scholars now who could claim enough educational prowess to "know it all" or at least all there was to know in a rational term. The single largest "clue" that Paul wrote is probably his consistent personal verbal writing style in the Koine Greek language of that day. I'm studying Greek right now and John is the easiest because he wrote kinda plain and straight forward. Not a lot of flare. Luke is neck deep verbal formation and that makes sense... the guy was a physician and wrote a certain way. Paul was a very learned man. He wrote a certain way. We all do. So the religious of that day would compare his style of writing to others they knew to be authentic, as a verification process. Didn't want heresy in the homes of the early believers! Paul was a religious leader also, meaning his Hebrew training would have meant he would have had Hebrew scripture memorized. He also had Roman citizenry due to birthright so he could come and go in the world's largest empire as he wished. He would have been fluent in Latin, Hebrew, and Koine Greek, the latter being the language of the commerce of that day. Polycarp, and many early church fathers lived during that time and others lived 1 or 2 generations out from the Apostle Paul, and they weeded with great care through the heretical imposters and their writings of the 1st century. Oh and as far as the guards, even some of the best of the best, the Imperial guards converted when Paul got done with them. Hope this helps.
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: James]
#6779847
02/22/20 09:26 PM
02/22/20 09:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,650 Southeast Ohio
amspoker
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Southeast Ohio
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It's not like the Gospels record eye-witness accounts. At best, those men who wrote the Gospels talked to the great-great-grandchildren of the actual witnesses (alleged) to the resurrection.
Jim Fossils only proved things once living are dead. No proof of a change of one species to another. Life is undeniable proof of a life giver. Man can't create life. Proving life, let alone complex, intelligent life, couldn't happen by happenstance.
Last edited by amspoker; 02/22/20 09:29 PM.
Levi
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#6779848
02/22/20 09:26 PM
02/22/20 09:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379 Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
James
"Minka"
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"Minka"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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Getting back to the original question James asked “where are they?” Is the speed of light the fastest possible that interspace travel can exist thus making it impossible for other advanced civilizations to get here yet? Or are we the only ones by some great design? If other intelligent life exists on other planets, did Jesus also die on the cross on those planets for those beings to “be saved.” If not, then why not? Other worlds may have their own Jesus. The Bible doesn't say it covers other worlds than the earth. Why would God create an intelligent species and deny them a chance to be saved? Suppose God made intelligent life on another world. Those sapient beings would be bound to disappoint God there too, and in His rage and disappointment, He might have drowned or found other ways to nearly exterminate them. Then, when the survivors of the Great Disaster still disappoint the God who made them (i.e., they "sinned"), He might have divided Himself into three parts, and sent one of his parts, the Son, to the world to be born a sentient being, and to suffer and die on something like a cross. God's plan being that the Son's torture and death would save everyone who believed in the Son's resurrection. What they needed to be saved from being, once again, God's wrath and disappointment. So yeah, it's entirely possible aliens have their own religion and Jesus stories. Jim
Forum Infidel since 2001
"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: amspoker]
#6779884
02/22/20 09:32 PM
02/22/20 09:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379 Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
James
"Minka"
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"Minka"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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It's not like the Gospels record eye-witness accounts. At best, those men who wrote the Gospels talked to the great-great-grandchildren of the actual witnesses (alleged) to the resurrection.
Jim Fossils only proved things once living are dead. No proof of a change of one species to another. Life is undeniable proof of a life giver. Man can't create life. Proving life, let alone complex, intelligent life, couldn't happen by happenstance. Fossil study is only one branch of science that confirms evolution theory. DNA makes the case a cinch. Jim
Forum Infidel since 2001
"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: danny clifton]
#6779887
02/22/20 09:34 PM
02/22/20 09:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,891 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
OP
"Grumpy Old Man"
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OP
"Grumpy Old Man"
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Posts: 29,891
williamsburg ks
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%e2%80%93Urey_experiment
this was what i posted about originally amspoker. its not life but the precursor is there. it certainly does not point away from abiogenesis
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: danny clifton]
#6779895
02/22/20 09:37 PM
02/22/20 09:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,891 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
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"Grumpy Old Man"
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OP
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williamsburg ks
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thankyou treedablackdog. I enjoy conversation like this where folks dont get mean to each other
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: James]
#6779897
02/22/20 09:39 PM
02/22/20 09:39 PM
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Mark June
Unregistered
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Mark June
Unregistered
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It's not like the Gospels record eye-witness accounts. At best, those men who wrote the Gospels talked to the great-great-grandchildren of the actual witnesses (alleged) to the resurrection.
Jim James, not sure where you're pulling this internet information from, but the gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke were obtained within 60-65 years of the ascension. John's a few years after that. Paul and Peter are martyred together in the 60AD's so they're still alive about 30 years after the resurrection. So it's pretty tightly wound. As an analogy, my grandpa could tell me what he saw as a young man in 1928 (he was 18) when I was 25 in 1982. 54 years later. My grandpa told me plenty of stories from 50 years earlier. His mind was sharp. And Paul had the Holy Spirit working on his team. Not sure about gramps. Plus, remember, the crowd in that day was not friendly to early believers and many (Jews and Gentiles alike) wanted no part of them. But still the story remained. That may speak loudly. I love the story of Lee Strobl, Yale trained attorney, Chicago Tribune investigative reporter, who in the late 1970's went on a big time worldwide mission to disprove all of this magic talk. And his newspaper underwrote it. All a hoax, he as an atheist said. His wife had recently converted and he was _____ that she had fallen for a stupid cult. When Mr. Strobl finished his investigation, he found the evidence was overwhelmingly concrete, and he converted, went to seminary and today pastors in Texas. The movie about Lee Strobl is called "The Case for Christ." It's a good one.
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: TreedaBlackdog]
#6779908
02/22/20 09:43 PM
02/22/20 09:43 PM
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Mark June
Unregistered
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Mark June
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Danny Clifton -
I am still praying for you. I continue to admire your hunger for the truth. danny is fun people. Truly. We'd drink a brewski together and have grand ol time figuring all this worldly stuff out. Besides, are any trappers not cool people?
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: danny clifton]
#6779922
02/22/20 09:52 PM
02/22/20 09:52 PM
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Mark June
Unregistered
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Mark June
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..... and danny always takes a shot at the net! Love it!
Now James, as a typical attorney, highly trained in the arts, many times he just keeps skating, keeps skating, keeps skating. No shot. Then as you take a shot at his goalie...
He moves the goal on ya.
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: James]
#6779932
02/22/20 10:02 PM
02/22/20 10:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,943 Idaho Falls, ID
Grandpa Trapper
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Other worlds may have their own Jesus. The Bible doesn't say it covers other worlds than the earth. Why would God create an intelligent species and deny them a chance to be saved?
Suppose God made intelligent life on another world. Those sapient beings would be bound to disappoint God there too, and in His rage and disappointment, He might have drowned or found other ways to nearly exterminate them.
Then, when the survivors of the Great Disaster still disappoint the God who made them (i.e., they "sinned"), He might have divided Himself into three parts, and sent one of his parts, the Son, to the world to be born a sentient being, and to suffer and die on something like a cross. God's plan being that the Son's torture and death would save everyone who believed in the Son's resurrection. What they needed to be saved from being, once again, God's wrath and disappointment.
So yeah, it's entirely possible aliens have their own religion and Jesus stories.
Jim
It seems with religion as with other unknowns, a question leads to another question. If aliens have their own religion and God, do those beings have a separate type of heaven or do they go to the same heaven as earth people. If the formal, would there be competing Gods? If the latter, I would assume once again God would had to go through the same thing on their planet as he did here on earth to die for their sins.
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: Boco]
#6779933
02/22/20 10:02 PM
02/22/20 10:02 PM
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Mark June
Unregistered
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Mark June
Unregistered
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Its all mathematics-specifically set theory. Dirt holes or flat sets. Or are we talking poop sets?
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Re: Miller-Urey experiment
[Re: danny clifton]
#6779938
02/22/20 10:09 PM
02/22/20 10:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,522 james bay frontierOnt.
Boco
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Posts: 45,522
james bay frontierOnt.
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Zoom in to the mandelbrot set.It's infinite.
Last edited by Boco; 02/22/20 10:10 PM.
Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
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