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Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6779522
02/22/20 03:25 PM
02/22/20 03:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,265
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Online content
trapper
Boco  Online Content
trapper
B

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,265
james bay frontierOnt.
Trapping to me has always been a profession.Fur-an important income supplement that paid larger bills when I worked full time.Part of my fulltime union Railroad job was also trapping related as I did beaver control work from april to december.Also other Nuisance beaver work in the summer on a contract basis was/is also part of my overall income.
I now have a RR pension built up by my beaver control work(a lot of overtime),continue to do contract nuisance work,and also fur trap.All this is part of my income and basically all trapping related.
I also do a small amount of furrier work for added income.I consider that as more of a hobby,although the monetary return per hour of labour is much greater than any other aspect of trapping/fur related work.
I also have another fur related hobby-tanning for my own use.I love to experiment with different tanning processes,and recently developed a method of vegetable tanning fur that is fast and will not stain white fur.

Last edited by Boco; 02/22/20 03:28 PM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Yes sir] #6779965
02/22/20 10:29 PM
02/22/20 10:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
M
Mac Offline OP
trapper
Mac  Offline OP
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
Originally Posted by Yes sir
Originally Posted by walleye101
That is an interesting way to define a professional. So if you have your finances in order enough that you don't need instant cash to put food on the table you are less of a professional?



Yes sir: That's the way I'm reading the OP, your not a true professional trapper unless you are in a financial position that you need money right away or very soon after your done trapping. I'm confused why one's financial situation would determine if they are a professional or not. I've got an idea about the real Maybe Mac could explain his point a bit more.
motivate for the OP but its speculation so I'll keep it to myself.


Forgive my ignorance but I simply do not know what the acronym OP stands for.
So therefore I cannot speculate just what presumption you have for "I've got an idea about the real Maybe Mac could explain his point a bit more."
Not sure how long you have been in the game, not that matters. Except you view point might be based on 3, 4 or 10 years of being involved in the trapping game.

My perspective potentially be different due to the fact that I have spent over 5 decades in the game, and have been a student of the history of trapping. That may be why we look at things differently and it could be I am not articulate enough to ask probing questions. I am but a simple man.


"I'm confused why one's financial situation would determine if they are a professional or not."

Well it not really all that confusing unless one is looking for some dark hidden motivation concerning the comparison of professional trappers in the past to professionals of say the last 30 years.
I suppose you could look for some hidden meaning lurking in the shadows for a reason for the topic. If you come up with one, please share.

Yes sir wrote: No business is the same as they were 40 years ago. Even the "professional " trappers of 40 years ago are quite different than ones 150 years ago.
You are spot on. Times and business practice change.


pcr 2 writes:" do we need labels??"
I admire your willingness to help others and certainly your trapping skills. (Love those mink pictures you shared not long ago) But to be honest, due to your sense of humor, I am never sure when you are joking.
I guess you have a good point. Following suit with that line of thinking, one would assume folks will stop labeling those darn liberals, and they should not be picking on the orange man.
We better not label those limp wristed anti gun folks. Etc.

Dean Chapel writes: "You used to be able to find a local buyer to sell as needed. Not so many options anymore"
Excellent and valid point.


Walleye 101: "That is an interesting way to define a professional. So if you have your finances in order enough that you don't need instant cash to put food on the table you are less of a professional?"
Good point.

But I have a question for you.
Do you personally know other folks in other professions (doctors, lawyers, carpenters, plumbers, nurses, teachers, store clerks etc. etc.) that can go for months at a time living on their savings or the stock market dividends? You may, so I would hazard a guess that we fly in very different social circles.

If I were you I would change my tag or handle. Some might think you are related to the other "Walleye".


Beezmador : O'Gorman had/has a lot of barn photos. Pretty hard to argue him anything other than a "professional". Not sure I understand how the definition of a pro trapper label has to do with whether you need to sell fur the moment you catch it. Zagger, in my mind, is a professional trapper, but not a man that will miss a meal if he doesn't sell his fur that week. Guess I just don't get it....

Well lets think about this for just a moment. And God knows I have been wrong a lot of times, because I am thinking from a working class mentality.
If a trapper sells 5 muskrats he is a professional. He made money working in an endeavor. If one receives money, technically a professional is this person. But does this person use the professional money to support a family and house hold?

One might plausibly make the jump that a man that does not have to sell fur as he goes, might, just might be making money in other areas they are involved in. One could speculate that an individual is yes making money in the end, but may not truly be dependent on a fur check. Just a different way of looking at things.

Not really looking to argue, just making an observation.

I think some of the comments are confusing the words expert with professional. Two different titles.

I might be wrong but I will go out on a limb with this statement. Mr Zagger and I do not spend time on the weeks playing cards or drinking beverages. But that said I consider him a friend.
Again, I might be wrong, but I bet Mark does not label himself a professional. Sure he sells his furs and to let folks in on an inside secret, the boy is not just a pretty face. He has found some ingenious ways to market fur. But that is not how he makes a living.

Is Zagger an expert? I would say he is no doubt one of the most expert canine trappers I have met and spent time with. And I should add I have spent time with some tremendous trappers. He has a tremendous amount of knowledge and his skill set as a coyote man would pretty darn hard to match. Never once have I heard Mark claim he was a professional. Think about that for just a minute.
And I would out up against anyone. Good Lord not that long ago he went West trap and one of the most often talked about trapper spent time whining and complaining about the guy that came West to trap "his" coyotes. Boo Blanking Hoo, What a whiner. He tried to bad mouth Zagger and the man form the East put him in his place.

He has paid his dues. He has developed a system that extremely effective, and innovative. He gives credit to those he has learned from.
He is a coyote killing machine. He is a hard worker, and very competitive. There is no doubt that he is truly a canine expert. Knowing what I know of the guy, I would put my money on the bet that he will be a high performer at what ever he decides to trap. Expert for sure. Again, never once heard him say he was a professional. He is not the most humble man I have met but he is not a chest beater like so many today. Most extremely confident folks often do not seem super humble. That is because they have worked hard and are confident and believe in themselves.

There are countless guys on this forum that I would consider out standing experts. Many do not claim to be a professional. The majority also work at other work that is no doubt more lucrative than fur trapping. There are lots of true experts on here.

Note: For God's sake I have no argument with trappers that consider themselves a professional like lumber jack 391 wrote. No argument. I bet he is probably a proud man that is also an expert.


It no doubt pays for a person that makes lures and baits for sale or to sell you school learning or instruction, to keep you fur for a picture. Good marketing for sure.

Guys doing complaint or ADC work, yes, those guys are trapping for money and there is no doubt they are both professionals and experts.

I have almost forgot what the original topic starter was about. But thanks to those that have joined in.

Pastor June wrote: Mac,

You're always thinking brother. Always thinking.
Good question.

Thank you sir.

You bet sir. Always trying to think and watch others to figure out why they do what they do, and how they go about it. One item that has given me a lot to ponder is the instruction game. It is a most interesting thing to examine. Look way back and you will find ads from some big names running ads in FFG. Bill Nelson and others. Back in the last real fur boom there were quite a few instructors advertising. Some wrote some pretty fancy marketing piece that borrowed from other literature, and some pretty clever lines were used. Some could really put the LDC out.
In more recent years schools have popped up. Very interesting to see how things have progressed or evolved. Interesting in deed

Thanks to all that responded.
Peace to all and God Bless

Mac



Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780019
02/22/20 11:24 PM
02/22/20 11:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 562
Maine
beezmador Offline
trapper
beezmador  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 562
Maine
Mac, having read many of your post, I for one am sure you didn’t imply any negative sentiment toward those that have spent countless hours mastering their craft, no matter what they do for a “day job”, though I will admit it seemed puzzling to make a connection that a “professional” must derive all their income from trapping. You mentioned some semantics in the words chosen (expert vs professional) and perhaps the if the word “profession” was used as an alternative to “professional”, some of us would not have been as confused. At any rate, interesting discussion. All the best!


Member of NTA, MTA and FTA - keeping up the Fight for our Right to trap
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780030
02/22/20 11:55 PM
02/22/20 11:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
SW Pa
W
wr otis Offline
trapper
wr otis  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
SW Pa
Are you only a professional if your too poor to pay your bills with out selling fur continuously?

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780139
02/23/20 07:49 AM
02/23/20 07:49 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 28,978
potter co. p.a.
P
pcr2 Offline
"Twerker"
pcr2  Offline
"Twerker"
P

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 28,978
potter co. p.a.
zagger--part time pro

bossman--full time pro.

i would consider myself a part time pro with put up.









Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780144
02/23/20 07:57 AM
02/23/20 07:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 655
Central New York State
Z
Zagman Offline
trapper
Zagman  Offline
trapper
Z

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 655
Central New York State
I am a decent trapper, and I carry myself in a professional way. While the definition of a "professional trapper" is shrouded in ambiguity, I honestly do NOT consider myself a professional trapper. I am old school, and probably think of the definition incorrectly........vs. some other ways of looking at it. I looked at it more from a standpoint of income and deriving the bulk or ALL of your income from trapping.

In the end, who really did that or does that? Even during the fur boom, the guys I knew about and thought about as professionals were the ones that wrote books, sold lure, and still trapped barn-loads of fur. Milligan, OG, Russ Carmen, etc. But in the end, I bet if they were honest, they'd tell you the lure/bait/book sales were FAR more important to their families than the fur check.

Times were different then.....gas was cheap, a new truck cost you $8000 and you could buy one with a season's fur catch. How many guys sell enough fur TODAY (that THEY trapped) allowing them to buy a new $50,000 truck at the end of the season???

Going forward, the professional trappers, in my mind, will be the ADC/Nuisance guys and they will be getting paid for their services vs. the fur check.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


I've ALWAYS thought that since everyone needs to put trappers in buckets, or apply labels, that there'd be a better way to do it with LESS ambiguity:

A belt system, similar to the martial arts world.

White, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, red, brown, and black belts.

I like this view because there are even DEGREES of black belt (perhaps all of the colors, not sure?)

So, let's say I am somehow considered a black belt in coyotes (indulge me!!!! LOL)

And let's say a guy like O'Gorman is a black belt. Or Phil Brown. Or whomever. I don't think we are in the same place, so maybe I am an entry-level black belt, and Phil is a 10th-degree black belt. Or whatever.......

******************************************DISCLAIMER*********** I am NOT putting myself in the same bucket or belt class as OG or Phil.....just trying to paint a picture!

Don't be so literal!

Have at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MZ


Last edited by Zagman; 02/23/20 08:00 AM.

Eastern Coyotes.......Western Numbers.

Check out Coyote U!

YouTube Channel: https://youtu.be/JGwORfXpwOo

www.coyoteu.com

Mark@coyoteu.com
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780154
02/23/20 08:13 AM
02/23/20 08:13 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 28,978
potter co. p.a.
P
pcr2 Offline
"Twerker"
pcr2  Offline
"Twerker"
P

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 28,978
potter co. p.a.
grin









Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780156
02/23/20 08:17 AM
02/23/20 08:17 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Hey Zag,

That'd be a super demo at the NTA!
In this corner, from Birmingham, AL going for his orange belt....
And in this corner from Reading, PA going for his 5th straight triple-double....

Put it on the big screen as the demo crowd cheers and the coyotes are released into the arena.

Oh wait, the Romans did that and the Lions always won.
Nevermind. Coyote bites hurt.

I'll stay a white flag belt.

I would admit that ADC is growing leaps and bounds. I haven't fur trapped in three years and I miss it, but the income derived from ADC contracts dwarfs fur lines.

Cool YouTube channel too! Love it.

MJ

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780173
02/23/20 08:33 AM
02/23/20 08:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 655
Central New York State
Z
Zagman Offline
trapper
Zagman  Offline
trapper
Z

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 655
Central New York State
Ha! I could see some trappers going for their belts just whipping out a pistol and whacking the opponent!

Bang!!!!

Who's next???

I can't imagine the demand for nuisance control going forward.....I get calls all the time, and I'm not even technically IN the biz!

MZ


Eastern Coyotes.......Western Numbers.

Check out Coyote U!

YouTube Channel: https://youtu.be/JGwORfXpwOo

www.coyoteu.com

Mark@coyoteu.com
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780226
02/23/20 09:09 AM
02/23/20 09:09 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Mac


Pastor June wrote: Mac,

You're always thinking brother. Always thinking.
Good question.

Thank you sir.

You bet sir. Always trying to think and watch others to figure out why they do what they do, and how they go about it. One item that has given me a lot to ponder is the instruction game. It is a most interesting thing to examine. Look way back and you will find ads from some big names running ads in FFG. Bill Nelson and others. Back in the last real fur boom there were quite a few instructors advertising. Some wrote some pretty fancy marketing piece that borrowed from other literature, and some pretty clever lines were used. Some could really put the LDC out.
In more recent years schools have popped up. Very interesting to see how things have progressed or evolved. Interesting in deed

Thanks to all that responded.
Peace to all and God Bless

Mac



I have 3.5 more years until I graduate as a pastor Mac. I appreciate your "you got this" support.

MJ

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780233
02/23/20 09:13 AM
02/23/20 09:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
L
lumberjack391 Offline
trapper
lumberjack391  Offline
trapper
L

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
No white belt here but Im about ready to wave my white surrender flag.....I tap out

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780245
02/23/20 09:23 AM
02/23/20 09:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Let's look at it this way.

Seems most fur trappers csnt live off of the fur check year around even in past years, so they work other jobs or find a way to support themselves the other 9 months of the year. If both guys trap full time two or three months of the year and one makes enough money the other 9 months of the year that he doesn't have to sell his furs right away compared to the guy that traps the same amount but doesn't make or save enough money from the other 9 months to pay his bills through the trapping season, why should the guy that is making less money those other 9 months be called a professional trapper and the guy who traps just as hard through the fur season but makes more money the other 9 months not be considered a professional trapper?

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780369
02/23/20 10:56 AM
02/23/20 10:56 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,355
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,355
SD
There’d be a lot more “professionals” out there today if fur had the same buying power it did 40 years ago.

Of course, coyotes would have to average $300-400 today for that to be possible.

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Boone Liane] #6780379
02/23/20 11:07 AM
02/23/20 11:07 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Boone Liane
There’d be a lot more “professionals” out there today if fur had the same buying power it did 40 years ago.

Of course, coyotes would have to average $300-400 today for that to be possible.


Yep Boone.
I ran the numbers.
My $75 red fox in 1979 would have to bring $277 today.
Groeny is going have to dig deeper.

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780383
02/23/20 11:15 AM
02/23/20 11:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,635
Pottawatamie co. IA
LLtrapper Offline
"The Coon Combine"
LLtrapper  Offline
"The Coon Combine"

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,635
Pottawatamie co. IA
Defined by Webster: a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs ie a professional golfer.

I agree with most everyone but would point out that to maximize your fur check you have to finish it. Most trappers who trap all day every day of a fur season have prepared themselves for the season. That includes the finances to be able to do what they know they need to. Like any other business that is seasonal and self owned there are costs associated with the end result. To say you need to sell every week to put food on the table is a comment of possibly someone who lives from pay check to pay check. I have a very successful business in the lawn care business. I bill monthly on most accounts and as anyone who does this knows, it takes the accounts a week or two to pay. Some commercial accounts get me my money shortly before or after the billing cycle for the next month. If I was to agree with the OP (mac) I would have to be at the door of my customer while the mower was still running. You run no business like this very long and the fur business is the same. For me and my fur I have most of the time sold in March when all my fur is done. It draws a bigger buyer crowd when you have a one shop stop that they can buy a truck load from. Just my thoughts. Yes I consider myself a professional. Not bragging but you are either a pro, or amateur, or hobbiest. I have no issue with any of those "titles" LLL


Isaiah 51:6 But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: LLtrapper] #6780537
02/23/20 02:25 PM
02/23/20 02:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
M
Mac Offline OP
trapper
Mac  Offline OP
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
A big thanks to most everyone that took time to respond.
As for the last post I would suspect a lot of the old school boys did live week to week. But then again times were different.
It is not uncommon for some builders, for example, to receive payment every week or every other week, when working time and materials.

"To say you need to sell every week to put food on the table is a comment of possibly someone who lives from pay check to pay check."

If this statement, is targeted to the OP or original poster, which would be me, it is an interesting tactic that does not surprise myself or others.

Thanks for the responses. I am as the fellow above stated, tapping out. I need to work on my resume and update to a true professional trapper for that section of the resume. I knew I was for the ADC work but now by golly I just got a boost in status. Cool Beans!



Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780568
02/23/20 03:02 PM
02/23/20 03:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,635
Pottawatamie co. IA
LLtrapper Offline
"The Coon Combine"
LLtrapper  Offline
"The Coon Combine"

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,635
Pottawatamie co. IA
The true agenda.
Originally Posted by Mac
A big thanks to most everyone that took time to respond.
As for the last post I would suspect a lot of the old school boys did live week to week. But then again times were different.
It is not uncommon for some builders, for example, to receive payment every week or every other week, when working time and materials.

"To say you need to sell every week to put food on the table is a comment of possibly someone who lives from pay check to pay check."

If this statement, is targeted to the OP or original poster, which would be me, it is an interesting tactic that does not surprise myself or others.

Thanks for the responses. I am as the fellow above stated, tapping out. I need to work on my resume and update to a true professional trapper for that section of the resume. I knew I was for the ADC work but now by golly I just got a boost in status. Cool Beans!

Originally Posted by Mac
A big thanks to most everyone that took time to respond.
As for the last post I would suspect a lot of the old school boys did live week to week. But then again times were different.
It is not uncommon for some builders, for example, to receive payment every week or every other week, when working time and materials.

"To say you need to sell every week to put food on the table is a comment of possibly someone who lives from pay check to pay check."

If this statement, is targeted to the OP or original poster, which would be me, it is an interesting tactic that does not surprise myself or others.

Thanks for the responses. I am as the fellow above stated, tapping out. I need to work on my resume and update to a true professional trapper for that section of the resume. I knew I was for the ADC work but now by golly I just got a boost in status. Cool Beans!


Isaiah 51:6 But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780651
02/23/20 04:55 PM
02/23/20 04:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,520
Kentucky
ky_coyote_hunter Offline
trapper
ky_coyote_hunter  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,520
Kentucky
Whatever the true definition of a professional trapper is, they have my total respect....In no way would I want my trapping to be a profession, because I don't believe the maximum level of enjoyment
could be maintained with the demands that would entail....Not for me at least.

It is in fact a very satisfying sport for me, scouting, matching wits with natures finest, being outdoors, handling and maintaining traps, putting up fur, and just sitting in the fur shed at night admiring the fur is all like therapy for the soul.

Money is nice, and everyone wants to be the best trapper they can....But when it comes to making a living, Trapping is just icing on the cake when $$ are made.




Member - FTA
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780657
02/23/20 05:04 PM
02/23/20 05:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,972
South Dakota
R
Rat Masterson Offline
trapper
Rat Masterson  Offline
trapper
R

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,972
South Dakota
Behind most pros is a wife with a good job. lol

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780747
02/23/20 06:56 PM
02/23/20 06:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
L
lumberjack391 Offline
trapper
lumberjack391  Offline
trapper
L

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
You can be a pro trapping at a hobbiest level IE time constraints, low fur prices, injuries ETC.....

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