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Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780759
02/23/20 07:03 PM
02/23/20 07:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
SW Pa
W
wr otis Offline
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wr otis  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
SW Pa
Take Phil and Larry as two examples, both regularly catch enough fur in dollars to probably get by on. Neither one sits around the rest of the year pinching pennies to squeak by on. Does that make them less professional, absolutely not if catch totals are a comparison.

I knew a guy who squeaked by on fur checks and a lure business. I'm not interested in squeaking by, myself.

Last edited by wr otis; 02/23/20 07:04 PM.
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: lumberjack391] #6780804
02/23/20 07:56 PM
02/23/20 07:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,893
new york
M
mike mason Offline
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mike mason  Offline
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M

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,893
new york
Where I grew up many guys cut bluestone spring,summer and early fall. They would trap late fall and all winter to support their family.I trapped some of the same areas as them and the competition was fierce. I was friends with two of the trappers and some Friday nights they hit the fur buyer for mortgage money.

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6780875
02/23/20 08:50 PM
02/23/20 08:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,452
MN
W
walleye101 Offline
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walleye101  Offline
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W

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,452
MN
"If I were you I would change my tag or handle. Some might think you are related to the other "Walleye"."

That may be good advice, since there has been some confusion at times. smirk

NAFA must have sent me a dozen of those free DVD's thinking they were sending them to Walleyed! grin

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6781128
02/23/20 11:40 PM
02/23/20 11:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,483
PA
P
PAskinner Offline
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PAskinner  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,483
PA
I remember a Russ Carmen quote back when fur was really high priced and people were being told by some "pros" that they could quit their jobs and become full time trappers, and catch enough for year round income.
Russ said he thought some of these guys were going to bite the bullet and he asked Thorpe what he thought a pro trapper was and Johnny said something like:
"Well, I know I can make a living off fur during the trapping season. But, at the end of the season, I have to find another line of work, because the money I made is gone, because I was living off it."

That's a professional trapper, someone who depends on the fur check to pay the bills, gas and groceries.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6781146
02/24/20 12:18 AM
02/24/20 12:18 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



It may help to figure out the context of the word professional because it can be used in our English language as either an;

Adjective; modifies a noun. I use this in my Professional Predator Trapping Academy as an adjective which modifies the noun Academy to describe that the Academy (noun) is run in a business manner.

Or as a:
Noun: The word professional when used as a noun typically means one who is qualified according to Websters.


Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: PAskinner] #6781238
02/24/20 07:45 AM
02/24/20 07:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 562
Maine
beezmador Offline
trapper
beezmador  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 562
Maine
Originally Posted by PAskinner
I remember a Russ Carmen quote back when fur was really high priced and people were being told by some "pros" that they could quit their jobs and become full time trappers, and catch enough for year round income.
Russ said he thought some of these guys were going to bite the bullet and he asked Thorpe what he thought a pro trapper was and Johnny said something like:
"Well, I know I can make a living off fur during the trapping season. But, at the end of the season, I have to find another line of work, because the money I made is gone, because I was living off it."

That's a professional trapper, someone who depends on the fur check to pay the bills, gas and groceries.



So if Carman or Thorpe won the lottery, yet continued to trap the same they they did their whole life, they would no longer be considered a professional?

Last edited by beezmador; 02/24/20 07:46 AM.

Member of NTA, MTA and FTA - keeping up the Fight for our Right to trap
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Rat Masterson] #6781395
02/24/20 10:17 AM
02/24/20 10:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 695
Ontario
S
Saskfly Offline
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Saskfly  Offline
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S

Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 695
Ontario
Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Behind most pros is a wife with a good job. lol


Yes sir

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6781442
02/24/20 11:04 AM
02/24/20 11:04 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 759
new york
H
henpecked1 Offline
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H

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 759
new york
I had to give a deposition/testify once and the lawyer asked me what made me a professional to make the statement that I provided. He clearly defined a journeyman as a professional as he had over 8,000 hours in the field to get his “ticket’ and also made it very clear that a person with a bachelor’s of science had a 4 year degree and that made him a professional. I did not have either. I told him to bring in every law enforcement vehicle into the lot and see where a piece of equipment was installed. He choose 3 at random for inspection, all were the same. One county, one state one federal, all the same. Case was dismissed.
I got in a discussion with a PHD about over the horizon Doppler RADAR for target acquisition, he stated that it did not exist, he was a teacher, and I was a 20 year Navy veteran.
You can be a “professional” soldier or sailor and go into a foreign county and get some real harsh lessons taught to you by the local war lords and tribal leaders. Eskimos do not do well in New Guinea and Puapins do not do well in in the Artic: but both are experts (professional) in their environment.
I have trapped since in was 10, I have known some very good trappers, Brad Rendell (Western NY RIP) was a student of Bill Nelson and knew Craig O. very well and was even listed in his catalog as a student. Brad said the big name western guys would never make it in New York or PA, to many rules, posted land, dogs, deer hunter, antis and competition of a limited number of animals. It did not change the fact of who or what they were.
A fur trapper may trap 4 months a year while an ADC man traps 12 months a year. 30 years ADC vs 30 fur trapping, huge difference, yet I would say both are professional.
If cash flow defines a professional then trappers are a poor lot. If experience and time in the field defines a professional then we are a very rich “craft” in deed.
Trapping is inductive thought process at its best, you teach a repetitive process but can you teach someone to think, to reason out a problem.
Zagger is a thinker, MJ is a thinker, MAC is also. The ability to put 2 and 2 together is not such a common skill set anymore.

MJ becoming a Theologian will require him to hit his I believe button, that is called faith. He will also have to do a lot of reasoning also in the area of human physcology (poor spelling)

Zagger sought trapping truth after years of study, it was a labor of love, maybe that is what makes the professional, the love. I enjoyed his shares during our brief conversations, he loves trapping.

I know trapping as a skill set has kept me alive in many foreign countries in some difficult situations.

Enjoy ur profession.
Henpecked

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6781508
02/24/20 12:32 PM
02/24/20 12:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 157
united kingdom
M
mawdy man Offline
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mawdy man  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 157
united kingdom
i would say ime a professional trapper in that for 7 or more month of the year i make every penny i have trapping,while not making the money in the fur ime paid per head and i put a lot of critters to bed!
if i really worked at it and went hard i could make enugh money in 6 months to take summer off and doss around.
imo to be classed as a pro you need to be earning %50 or more of your money in trapping

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: beezmador] #6781514
02/24/20 12:38 PM
02/24/20 12:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,483
PA
P
PAskinner Offline
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PAskinner  Offline
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P

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,483
PA
Originally Posted by beezmador
Originally Posted by PAskinner
I remember a Russ Carmen quote back when fur was really high priced and people were being told by some "pros" that they could quit their jobs and become full time trappers, and catch enough for year round income.
Russ said he thought some of these guys were going to bite the bullet and he asked Thorpe what he thought a pro trapper was and Johnny said something like:
"Well, I know I can make a living off fur during the trapping season. But, at the end of the season, I have to find another line of work, because the money I made is gone, because I was living off it."

That's a professional trapper, someone who depends on the fur check to pay the bills, gas and groceries.



So if Carman or Thorpe won the lottery, yet continued to trap the same they they did their whole life, they would no longer be considered a professional?


I don't know that Carmen claims to be a professional. He has said he makes most of his living off the trapping industry, not fur sales.
I'm just telling you what my definition of a professional is, which is someone who makes his living off trapping, or at least makes most of his living off of it during the season.
If you don't trap for your income, IMO, you are a hobby trapper, no matter how good you are at it. Nothing wrong with that.

Last edited by PAskinner; 02/24/20 12:39 PM.

Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: PAskinner] #6781550
02/24/20 01:12 PM
02/24/20 01:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,261
Iowa
~ADC~ Offline
The Count
~ADC~  Offline
The Count

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,261
Iowa
Originally Posted by PAskinner
I remember a Russ Carmen quote back when fur was really high priced and people were being told by some "pros" that they could quit their jobs and become full time trappers, and catch enough for year round income.
Russ said he thought some of these guys were going to bite the bullet and he asked Thorpe what he thought a pro trapper was and Johnny said something like:
"Well, I know I can make a living off fur during the trapping season. But, at the end of the season, I have to find another line of work, because the money I made is gone, because I was living off it."

That's a professional trapper, someone who depends on the fur check to pay the bills, gas and groceries.


There was an old guy that lived nearby when I was young. His income was mostly from selling the furs he trapped, well that and the refund he got from the cans he picked up. He also lived in a run-down shack of a house, wore clothes he found on the road or pillaged from goodwill's dumpster, ate out the dumpster and stole every trap he could locate from other's traplines. Survived off the fur money but didn't hardly have a pot to pee in. But I guess he was, by your definition, a professional trapper.

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: ~ADC~] #6781697
02/24/20 03:31 PM
02/24/20 03:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,520
Kentucky
ky_coyote_hunter Offline
trapper
ky_coyote_hunter  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,520
Kentucky
Quote
ADC -

There was an old guy that lived nearby when I was young. His income was mostly from selling the furs he trapped, well that and the refund he got from the cans he picked up. He also lived in a run-down shack of a house, wore clothes he found on the road or pillaged from goodwill's dumpster, ate out the dumpster and stole every trap he could locate from other's traplines. Survived off the fur money but didn't hardly have a pot to pee in. But I guess he was, by your definition, a professional trapper.


Professional Johnny Sneakum is a skill of sorts also, I knew a fella very similar to the one you describe.

Heckuva poacher too, he excelled as a woods crook, Lol
grin


Member - FTA
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6782032
02/24/20 09:41 PM
02/24/20 09:41 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,726
SW Georgia
W
Wanna Be Offline
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Wanna Be  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,726
SW Georgia
Did jealousy bring this topic up?
I’m still fairly new on this site and at trapping, but I was quick to realize who I consider “professionals” on here, and it has nothing to do with money. Some folks can just plain out catch critters...consistently. To me that’s a professional. I don’t care if they make any money at it, they catch critters. I catch critters about the first week and a half on properties then it dies out. If I was a professional I’d keep catching critters. Professional trappers “know” the critters they’re after. They know their moves and habits sometimes better than the critters themselves. These are the guys I pay attention to. These men are professionals at trapping.

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6782306
02/25/20 07:57 AM
02/25/20 07:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
L
lumberjack391 Offline
trapper
lumberjack391  Offline
trapper
L

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
What is the difference between a pro and an expert, if any?

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: henpecked1] #6782387
02/25/20 09:19 AM
02/25/20 09:19 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by henpecked1
I had to give a deposition/testify once and the lawyer asked me what made me a professional to make the statement that I provided. He clearly defined a journeyman as a professional as he had over 8,000 hours in the field to get his “ticket’ and also made it very clear that a person with a bachelor’s of science had a 4 year degree and that made him a professional. I did not have either. I told him to bring in every law enforcement vehicle into the lot and see where a piece of equipment was installed. He choose 3 at random for inspection, all were the same. One county, one state one federal, all the same. Case was dismissed.
I got in a discussion with a PHD about over the horizon Doppler RADAR for target acquisition, he stated that it did not exist, he was a teacher, and I was a 20 year Navy veteran.
You can be a “professional” soldier or sailor and go into a foreign county and get some real harsh lessons taught to you by the local war lords and tribal leaders. Eskimos do not do well in New Guinea and Puapins do not do well in in the Artic: but both are experts (professional) in their environment.
I have trapped since in was 10, I have known some very good trappers, Brad Rendell (Western NY RIP) was a student of Bill Nelson and knew Craig O. very well and was even listed in his catalog as a student. Brad said the big name western guys would never make it in New York or PA, to many rules, posted land, dogs, deer hunter, antis and competition of a limited number of animals. It did not change the fact of who or what they were.
A fur trapper may trap 4 months a year while an ADC man traps 12 months a year. 30 years ADC vs 30 fur trapping, huge difference, yet I would say both are professional.
If cash flow defines a professional then trappers are a poor lot. If experience and time in the field defines a professional then we are a very rich “craft” in deed.
Trapping is inductive thought process at its best, you teach a repetitive process but can you teach someone to think, to reason out a problem.
Zagger is a thinker, MJ is a thinker, MAC is also. The ability to put 2 and 2 together is not such a common skill set anymore.

MJ becoming a Theologian will require him to hit his I believe button, that is called faith. He will also have to do a lot of reasoning also in the area of human physcology (poor spelling)

Zagger sought trapping truth after years of study, it was a labor of love, maybe that is what makes the professional, the love. I enjoyed his shares during our brief conversations, he loves trapping.

I know trapping as a skill set has kept me alive in many foreign countries in some difficult situations.

Enjoy ur profession.
Henpecked


Henpecked.
First of all, your name signifies that you "listen" to your wife.
Or;
That you laid out amongst the hens and got bit.

Words have meanings and in any language they vary depending on how the author intended. Many a struggle has been started because the opposing sides differed in context of "one" word.

I would agree with you that there is much in trapping we have to "think" through if we want to better our skills. Hard work is a given. Low prices the same many times. Weather, varies. But the situation you get handed out in the field is where the rubber meets the road. Experience is the best councilor oftentimes. Learning from others shortens the curve manytimes. But still, you have to think your way through a situation and make a move. Simply thinking and not moving on your thought doesn't work well as you would expect.

I've seen Zagger in the field for instance. Passion for the love of our sport x 1,000. Strong man who can whack and pound things while you stand around "figuring" your next move. But most importantly he's thinking it through and making his move accordingly. The Pipe Dream is an example of a situation that needed a solution. Thinking. For yourself - based on your past experience.

Good post sir.
Mark

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6782469
02/25/20 10:04 AM
02/25/20 10:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,619
Nebraska
WadeRyan Offline
trapper
WadeRyan  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,619
Nebraska
Mac,
My brain is fried this morning after looking over medical terminology so I will take a shot at your question. I think comparing professional anything to a professional from years apart is comparing apples to oranges. I do enjoy reading what you and several people that have already commented have written over the years.

The world just isn’t what it was like when the original “professionals” you speak of survived off fur checks. I don’t think that someone’s ability to work smarter not harder makes them any less of a professional trapper than a guy that scraped by to survive trapping. I hide a lot in the shadows but I read a lot. Constantly reading. Constantly learning or trying to improve things and that goes with everything in life. I’m also certain I know what your original post pertains to. I don’t see any of the professionals of today riding around on horseback killing coyotes.

A professional to me when related to trapping has very little to do with making a majority of their income on trapping. There are trappers that take very little out of their year to focus on trapping that could flat out work some people I’ve seen regarded as “professionals” in the business flat under the table. They’ve chosen other avenues to pursue a majority of the year, but I don’t think of them as any less of trappers for that choice. I still consider a number of them professionals.

I’m not a professional trapper and never have claimed to be, but I can use my own life for an example. I’m almost certain when someone is “treating their furs like a stock in the market,” they are only trying to maximize their return on their effort. Once again I would consider that working smarter not harder. Here in Nebraska we don’t have coyotes tripping over each other but we have coyotes (the only thing really worth trapping around here right now).

Now I could wake up every day run my truck about 50 miles round trip. Figure $0.75 cents a mile of wear on my truck (that’s probably way too low) you’ve got $37.50 per day. Fuel for 50 miles I’m in about $10 a day…I like to stay warm I’m not getting 20 miles a gallon bouncing through the fields and I doubt anyone could. Run about 100 traps a day. Shoot for an average of 5 coyotes a day (I know I know someone will say I should catch 20 coyotes a day running 100 traps but you can’t catch them if there aren’t that many there to start). After 60 days of that I could have 300 coyotes and one of those pretty barn photos. I’ve got $2,250 of wear on my vehicle, I’ve got $600 in fuel, and I’ve made $15,000 on my coyotes (that’s figuring a $50 average on our type of coyotes finished). Now lets factor in the supplies to catch the coyotes, the supplies to put up those coyotes, and the money needed to keep my freezers running while I’m putting up those coyotes. How many tires did I blow while I was out for 60 days? In my case the answer would be a lot! Then you should probably factor in YOUR time…I mean time is money does ring true. The time to catch the coyotes, the time to put up the coyotes, and the time to market your coyotes. I don’t even know what that number is but I can tell you there’s not a profit and there definitely isn’t enough to live off with today’s society. There are so many costs there that I didn’t even associate with what it takes to run a trap line. Even if I had a place to drop off coyotes on the carcass every day it would be a sad state of affairs.

Now I could go out in the elements of Nebraska for 60 days a year bust my rear end. Drop off my coyotes every day on the carcass. Wonder where my next meal is coming from. Or I can drive 5 minutes make a guaranteed $37-64 an hour every day all day as a professional and let my dreams of fur trapping float in my head all day. Does that make me less of a trapper because I have avenues to make a better income than if I trapped for fur full time?

The reality is a person can be what I would consider a professional trapper but he’s found that he can live a much more comfortable life pursuing other aspects in life. I know of personal friends that have trapped part time and paid for brand new trucks. They don’t choose to live off that money year around though. I’m sure they could meet your requirements for a professional trapper very easily if they chose to. Personally, I would never want to be a professional trapper as you describe it selling fur to put food on the table. I have a huge passion for trapping but if it ever came to my pride as a trapper and providing for my family trapping would be in the dust.

Last edited by WadeRyan; 02/25/20 10:17 AM.

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Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: lumberjack391] #6782480
02/25/20 10:14 AM
02/25/20 10:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,971
WI
N
nimzy Offline
trapper
nimzy  Offline
trapper
N

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,971
WI
Originally Posted by lumberjack391
What is the difference between a pro and an expert, if any?


Pro is a commercial term, a claim or ego.
An expert is an internal confidence that gets results.
A pro has a yearning to be recognized. Self advertising
An expert doesn’t desire attention.
Both can be very good at their craft just different personalities.




Last edited by nimzy; 02/25/20 10:15 AM.
Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6782489
02/25/20 10:25 AM
02/25/20 10:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
L
lumberjack391 Offline
trapper
lumberjack391  Offline
trapper
L

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,283
PA
Then that settles it, Im a self proclaimed expert.

Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: Mac] #6782494
02/25/20 10:29 AM
02/25/20 10:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,447
Monroeville NJ
J
Jonesie Offline
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Jonesie  Offline
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J

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,447
Monroeville NJ
I trap for a living and have for many years. I have traps out every day of the year unless I get a chance to take a day or week off. My trapping is ADC, where I earn my living trapping whatever the problem animal is, using whatever tool and method I need to use to get it done. Even though I started off in fur and still fur trap, my hero shots of fur are long gone. My full-time trapping is not getting them to skin, and put them up, but rather get the one or few that are causing the damage, and move to the next job. In my mind and maybe I am wrong but, the professional trapper is the person that earns their living or a lot of their living by trapping. They will most times, over time, become very proficient in the trade or they will starve and not stay at it LOL What I have seen over the years is that most professional trappers are never really known, except by the few close to them and really see what they do and not what they show. If the professional trapper is also a good businessman, as, in any trade, they will make good money, and if they are not good at the business they will live a humble life. The amount of money made does not reflect on the amount of knowledge or ability that a person has with catching or trapping, but on the business end only. As I thought about the original opening post, the older professional trappers from those of today, Old or new they always figure out how to make the living from trapping, not on one mindset, but finding a way to make some money, be it selling the fur or selling the job to solve the problem, so they can continue to live the life they know and are happy in. I don't know if Bob Jamson will remember this. I remember it like it was yesterday, about 20 years ago at a WCT conference, he, myself, Mike Page and a few others were standing talking about what else lol trapping and the longliners going to be a thing of the past. Bob said you know this group will be the next professional trappers.

Last edited by Jonesie; 02/25/20 10:37 AM.

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Re: Professional or so called professional trappers [Re: ~ADC~] #6782637
02/25/20 01:07 PM
02/25/20 01:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,483
PA
P
PAskinner Offline
trapper
PAskinner  Offline
trapper
P

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,483
PA
Originally Posted by ~ADC~
Originally Posted by PAskinner
I remember a Russ Carmen quote back when fur was really high priced and people were being told by some "pros" that they could quit their jobs and become full time trappers, and catch enough for year round income.
Russ said he thought some of these guys were going to bite the bullet and he asked Thorpe what he thought a pro trapper was and Johnny said something like:
"Well, I know I can make a living off fur during the trapping season. But, at the end of the season, I have to find another line of work, because the money I made is gone, because I was living off it."

That's a professional trapper, someone who depends on the fur check to pay the bills, gas and groceries.


There was an old guy that lived nearby when I was young. His income was mostly from selling the furs he trapped, well that and the refund he got from the cans he picked up. He also lived in a run-down shack of a house, wore clothes he found on the road or pillaged from goodwill's dumpster, ate out the dumpster and stole every trap he could locate from other's traplines. Survived off the fur money but didn't hardly have a pot to pee in. But I guess he was, by your definition, a professional trapper.


Not very professional if you have to steal. That's a professional thief, lol.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
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