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Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6957268
08/07/20 04:31 PM
08/07/20 04:31 PM
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I'm being to think we have started a "Dear Diary" for Jim Comstock just like Jim Acosta at CNN. Must be baloney because no one before or since Comstock has caught any beavers. Only he has made any wire trigger traps.... Baloney! This isn't about you! Are you the only voice worth listening to in the trapping world. Are you calling Kirk a liar as he has records of his catches of 16,000+ beavers, have you seen his DVDs? (I will send them to you if you want) Just because you want to put your head in the sand doesn't mean every one else has to. Oh and I believe EMF has been around forever, it didn't just start smile.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6957773
08/08/20 12:33 AM
08/08/20 12:33 AM
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I was the one who had suggested double blind tests. I would expect a double-blind for this claim otherwise it's not a good test. Experimenter bias is real--expectation can create the result. And if the person dealing with the trapper knows which is a 'better' trap, that bias gets passed on, too (Same reason why most people will think a more expensive wine tastes better). Again, I'm not suggesting that the magnetism of a trap doesn't effect a catch, but to say that it does, requires a specific kind of proof.

That said, for fun, I downloaded a magnetometer app, and 'examined' two cages. Outside the cage, readings were the same, but upon entering, the reading on one was higher than the other, but once the phone was in the cage, the readings go down again. Also, readings change quite a bit whether you are centred in the opening of the cage or move to the sides or corners. Did this on traps I don't use much, but will do my own experiment with my raccoon cages as I didn't test the magnetism in those and therefore, can't be biased. Will put them side by side, bait them the same, and see what happens and report back with the results.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958067
08/08/20 11:39 AM
08/08/20 11:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 249
New York
Jim Comstock Offline
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The Beav and Cysquash are correct, right on! Thanks for some common sense. If you stick with the fundamentals, good sets, (frequently baitless)-positive sets with nose cones, trail sets, dig-outs, the right location, the right presentation, the right bait-if baiting, camouflaging, keeping distracting odors down to a minimum and even understanding when sets are to be placed, (the optimum time of day to be setting for the best results) you won't be disappointed. I believe that I am the only voice for when to set for beaver and woodchucks, making catching a snap, while taking fewer non-targets. Complimenting setting, good equipment that is functional and consistent will assure success. In cage traps, having a trap that is rugged to prevent escapes, practical-not big and oversized and heavy, self-contained with no parts that stick up or out of the box or traps that are too complicated with extra springs and parts to foul or break are a must. Simplicity is king. Fewer is better. Having traps with the versatility to fit into tight places, small culverts or into thick brush in traps without disclaimers or limitations for weather conditions north and south, that can be set vertically, sideways, upside down etc., roll over proof, able to be covered in snow conditions to prevent freeze ups, not sensitive to firing when bumped or when animals climb on them, or a trap that can actually be thrown into deep water without firing with the sensitivity to catch small as well as large animals in locations you can't reach are all part of the big picture in the equation for great results. This is the reason why we set so few traps and for very short periods, the reason so many others have learned to do the same.

Rather than superimpose our thoughts on others or try to plant seeds of superstition, we LISTEN closely to what trappers say of their experiences and share with us and ask questions of them. If there were any measurable issues about refusals that would suggest changes were necessary or applicable they would have been made long ago, on the spot, but that is surely not the case, realized in countless testimonials attesting to positive results, minus what are apparently issues others outside of our circle are having. In reality, in trapping there are so many variables that simply can not be quantified or properly weighted with or without testing, so for that reason we deal with tangibles than apparently are woking.

Because we were able to catch 48 bobcats, along with foxes and coyotes in foothold traps in two weeks in 1984 without bait or lure of any kind and many more after that, I thought we just might be able to apply those very principles to other areas of trapping and we did.

Oh, an FYI, I am not the only one to make wire trigger traps, but the first, the originator, the inventor. This was my baby conceived many years earlier. The above are spin offs from my invention, end of story. I'm always skeptical of those who allow untruths to circulate as factual and never admit to what actually took place to set the record straight, which is what is at the core of all that has transpired since, giving credit where credit is due, which is the way I conduct my life, always without exception.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958090
08/08/20 12:38 PM
08/08/20 12:38 PM
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Dear Diary..... I really stuck it to Kirk and Townsend Traps. I am the only one that listens. I invented cage traps.

WOW that sounds like Al Gore, he invented the internet ya know.

The only thing we are saying is the our traps are high quality carbon steel (with stainless bolts, dog, and springs) that are versatile in many places and sets and catch animals. PERIOD. They also are designed where the magnetic field reduces when going into the trap (THIS IS A BONUS and only one aspect of the traps)

I said the other day fundamentals are important, no one disputes that or disagrees. These traps are another tool in the trappers arsenal. No one is putting down your product but you feel so inclined to do so to ours. Without ever touching one. I'm not sure if you conduct your life like this always but it seems rather arrogant to me.

You also seem bent on this imagination of trapping or cage traps begins and ends with you and that also seems rather self centered. There are many manufacturers of traps and many of them are very fine. We aspire to be a household name in the trapping world and that will take time and hard work, nothing that we are afraid of. But when a leader in the industry comes out of the gate gunning for the new kid that reeks of fear or greed. Our traps are very capable and we would put our traps quality and effectiveness next to anyone else's.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958097
08/08/20 01:00 PM
08/08/20 01:00 PM
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Posts: 5,491
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Vinke Offline
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Why not build traps out of sheat goods and not wire, better yet concrete
This depending on the thickness would almost eliminate EMT
Maybe a inverted v for an opening.

My other question is what is the source of the EMT if I am outside of cell range?


Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958122
08/08/20 01:52 PM
08/08/20 01:52 PM
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Wisconsin
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So once this trap or traps have been de magnetized if that's at all possible. Will they regain the magnetic field later on? So far none of this has been explained.


The forum Know It All according to Muskrat
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958130
08/08/20 02:03 PM
08/08/20 02:03 PM
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Shipping would be a little much on the concrete.

The source of the earth's magnetic field is the earth, north and south poles as the earth is a giant magnet. The magnetic field called the magnetosphere. This is the space in which we and all animals live. It is all around us. This is inherently why this is important. Animals are used to a certain level and an increase in this level MAY spook certain animals as it would be different than they are used to.

As with most new science, studies are on going and new things are discovered all the time. This is a link to SCIENCE magazine. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/humans-other-animals-may-sense-earth-s-magnetic-field

Here they clearly talk about animals detecting magnetic fields. Claims we make are based on our own studies along with research, but as we keep saying that there are many variable and no trap can guarantee anything 100%. We make no claims that we can guarantee 100%. We provide a tool to support a trappers goal of catching animals.

We are not discussing EMF caused by cell towers, electrical lines etc.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958133
08/08/20 02:09 PM
08/08/20 02:09 PM
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The Beav. Again I have said these traps are NOT magnetized. We are talking about the magnetic field of the earth. Is is all around you. If you want to take a Physics class you can as this forum probably isn't the best place for it.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958136
08/08/20 02:15 PM
08/08/20 02:15 PM
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Vinke Offline
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What is the difference between natural EMF and man created ?


Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958165
08/08/20 02:41 PM
08/08/20 02:41 PM
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What most people refer to as EMF is a combination of electrical field and magnetic fields (Electromagnetic field - EMF). This is why they are talked about around electrical lines or cell towers etc. People don't talk about natural EMF unless maybe a lightning strike or something.

The natural magnetic field is caused by the earth, north and south poles. The earths magnetic field is everywhere.

You can create magnets but those fields do not radiate very far. Even the EMF field from your cell phone probably don't travel over a few inches.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958197
08/08/20 03:09 PM
08/08/20 03:09 PM
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Vinke Offline
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I have to call bs on,that it is sent over the air
What about wifi?


Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958220
08/08/20 03:33 PM
08/08/20 03:33 PM
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What are you calling bs on? And by what basis. Cell tower and electrical lines AND wifi radiate EMF fields (Through the air). The earth has a north MAGNETIC pole and a south MAGNETIC pole. Just google earth magnetic field and you will see a picture. If you want to take a physics class please sign up to take one but if you don't have any knowledge or expertise in the area i'm sorry but your BS reader just doesn't count.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958299
08/08/20 05:39 PM
08/08/20 05:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 249
New York
Jim Comstock Offline
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So, let me get this straight, "a magnetic field MAY effect an animal," and conversely, it MAY not, which means this could all be about nothing or perhaps very little as a number of trappers have noted, nothing to crazy over or cause worry. If an animal can detect a field, who says he won't go into a cage anyway? Just saying. Also, if the magnetic field does effect an animal, that effect might not be necessarily be a negative, but could in fact be a positive? I guess if I still had my Ovaltine Decoder Ring I'd be set. With so few negative experiences using cages over 30 years, where most of the negativity was attributable to issues stemming from wised up animals due to ill fated attempts by clients trying to rectify their own wildlife problems while using cage traps before I arrived, the emf "problem" could be quite small, if it exists at all. I have changed equipment and methods many times over the years when I tried new stuff that turned out to be better, but I figured it out myself. Didn't have to be told. With beaver I began with Victor Conibears, did some Montgomery 600 Magnums for a season, went to BMI Magnums, then to Belisle Magnums, then Belisle 660 Magnums, then Belisle 660 Self Supporting Magnums, with snares along the way and footholds in-between and finally to swim through cages, now with no reason to change, while using the other equipment besides Hancocks and Baileys to fill in now and again. I still find it hard to believe that there are ADC guys who use conibears for beaver, but still don't use magnums, a trap with no equal.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Jim Comstock] #6958366
08/08/20 06:46 PM
08/08/20 06:46 PM
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Posts: 1,668
Georgia
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Originally Posted by Jim Comstock
So, let me get this straight, "a magnetic field MAY effect an animal," and conversely, it MAY not, which means this could all be about nothing or perhaps very little as a number of trappers have noted, nothing to crazy over or cause worry. If an animal can detect a field, who says he won't go into a cage anyway? Just saying. Also, if the magnetic field does effect an animal, that effect might not be necessarily be a negative, but could in fact be a positive? I guess if I still had my Ovaltine Decoder Ring I'd be set. With so few negative experiences using cages over 30 years, where most of the negativity was attributable to issues stemming from wised up animals due to ill fated attempts by clients trying to rectify their own wildlife problems while using cage traps before I arrived, the emf "problem" could be quite small, if it exists at all. I have changed equipment and methods many times over the years when I tried new stuff that turned out to be better, but I figured it out myself. Didn't have to be told. With beaver I began with Victor Conibears, did some Montgomery 600 Magnums for a season, went to BMI Magnums, then to Belisle Magnums, then Belisle 660 Magnums, then Belisle 660 Self Supporting Magnums, with snares along the way and footholds in-between and finally to swim through cages, now with no reason to change, while using the other equipment besides Hancocks and Baileys to fill in now and again. I still find it hard to believe that there are ADC guys who use conibears for beaver, but still don't use magnums, a trap with no equal.


DESPERATE PEOPLE MAKE ACCUSATORY LONG POSTS.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958369
08/08/20 06:49 PM
08/08/20 06:49 PM
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Posts: 5,491
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Vinke Offline
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we have been doing EMF, I call it EMT remediation for the past 6 years. People are worried about the effects that can couse cancer . with 5 g coming they are even more worried.
" If" Gravitational pull is a factor then setting a trap a different angle "could" mitigate this. think about the old rabbit ears on your tv.
The only way to mitigate is though density
Go to the back of any concrete tilt up structure and try to use you cell phone.......

Last edited by Vinke; 08/08/20 06:58 PM.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958396
08/08/20 07:24 PM
08/08/20 07:24 PM
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Vinke Offline
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I will add that transmission and frequency may be different in some eyes.
FCC has regulated power levels
we no longer hold a 4 watt phone to are head
but he hold a higher frequency lower wattage phone to the same place
cb are legal to everyone 400 800 and hire bands are regulated
why is that


Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958432
08/08/20 08:18 PM
08/08/20 08:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Eastern Iowa
Joe Taylor Offline
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This thread has gone in so many directions and on a number of tangents. Letís try to bring the discussion back down to Earth (in the region of the magnetosphere, perhaps). Some questions and points (mainly for Kirk/Townsend, but others are welcome to chime in):

1. There are a number of factors that encourage or impede a wild animal from entering a non-positive trap: trap size, odor, bait presentation, trap placement, lure draw, animal intelligence, animal trapping history, etc. Considering these factors, where would you place magnetic field detection within the ranking?
2. When considering rural versus urban environments, an urban environment will have a much higher density of metal structures that wildlife encounter (e.g., sewer grates, window panes, gable vents, structural scaffolding, etc.). These would have their own magnetic field disruption characteristics. My speculation is that urban wildlife encounter these on a regular basis and therefore would have a diminished aversion to traveling through/into these environments. It would become white-noise to them. In your studies, how did urban trap denial compare to rural?
3. You quoted magnetic field trap readings in the 15 to 47 mT range. What are the scientifically established thresholds that each trapped species can detect, and how do those compare to a standard trap and a Townsend trap?

Perhaps these questions will get us talking about the evidence, since so many people seem interested in the science.


Joe Taylor
Paw Control Wildlife Solutions | pawcontrol.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958611
08/08/20 10:48 PM
08/08/20 10:48 PM
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Posts: 48
S.E. Michigan
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Wow this post gotten quite interesting since I've started it. One thing I have noticed Jim's been a real professional in this conversation

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6958677
08/09/20 12:16 AM
08/09/20 12:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 249
New York
Jim Comstock Offline
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New York
Sure has been a wild ride lately, as it has off and on for a number of years now, nothing new, just the date. Thank you very much for your comments Wiley. I really appreciate that you noticed what was going on and mentioned it as I try to keep my comments about issues, not personalities, while supplying what I can to support what I believe to be true through experiences from the past 55 years. I'll put in a wise crack once in a while to offset what gets too serious. What is difficult, it seems that if I dare to disagree or when others do too, some will take it personally and then call me out by name, insert digs, nothing gained. All this is way past my pay grade and I'm probably not the only one who feels this way. If you want to talk about a better functioning more versatile device, a new set or super lure, I'm in, but this stuff... There will never be an accurate way to affix a relative value to what is suggested because there are far more variables than have even been touched on, probably hundreds. Never will be able to sort it our or make sense of it all and produce anything useful from it with dozens of different animals from the dumb to the intelligent, dozens of environments, dozens of situations, dozens of cage traps, dozens of foothold and snares to name but a few. Just too much to separate out one issue from all the rest, put a value on it and come up with something definitive and consistent that makes sense across the board I would say.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Joe Taylor] #6958733
08/09/20 06:31 AM
08/09/20 06:31 AM
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Schenectady, NY
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Originally Posted by Joe Taylor
This thread has gone in so many directions and on a number of tangents. Letís try to bring the discussion back down to Earth (in the region of the magnetosphere, perhaps). Some questions and points (mainly for Kirk/Townsend, but others are welcome to chime in):

1. There are a number of factors that encourage or impede a wild animal from entering a non-positive trap: trap size, odor, bait presentation, trap placement, lure draw, animal intelligence, animal trapping history, etc. Considering these factors, where would you place magnetic field detection within the ranking?
2. When considering rural versus urban environments, an urban environment will have a much higher density of metal structures that wildlife encounter (e.g., sewer grates, window panes, gable vents, structural scaffolding, etc.). These would have their own magnetic field disruption characteristics. My speculation is that urban wildlife encounter these on a regular basis and therefore would have a diminished aversion to traveling through/into these environments. It would become white-noise to them. In your studies, how did urban trap denial compare to rural?
3. You quoted magnetic field trap readings in the 15 to 47 mT range. What are the scientifically established thresholds that each trapped species can detect, and how do those compare to a standard trap and a Townsend trap?

Perhaps these questions will get us talking about the evidence, since so many people seem interested in the science.


Well put Joe.

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