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Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6962469
08/12/20 09:28 PM
08/12/20 09:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
Lakes Region Indiana
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loosanarrow Offline
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loosanarrow  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2014
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Lakes Region Indiana
No worries urbancoon. I really have no dog in this fight, Iíve just been testing magnets in a few ways around beaver and other water animals for a few years now for reasons unrelated to trap avoidance, and thought some of my observations might help folks sort this topic out a bit.
I really am surprised by the posts trying to call my observations into question. When I started seeing these magnetic field posts, I thought ďhuh, that does not fit at all with what Iíve seen on video!Ē
Guess my observations arenít good for sales or something. I understand thatís a bummer for some, but it is what it is.

I went into my exploration of magnets hoping to come up with a magnetic device to REPEL animals. I wish magnetic fields would have some observable effect, but I have seen no evidence of any magnets (even some POWERFUL ONES!) affecting any animals behavior.

Then when Kirk said in a previous thread ďyou are testing magnets, not trapping devicesĒ, I thought ďhuh, heís right!Ē - so I did that by downloading the app he recommended and then adding magnets to cage traps so that app clearly indicated a STRONG increase in magnetic field going through the trap. Folks, take it or leave it, believe it or donít believe it, I donít care - but I canít detect any difference in how the animals are reacting.

Last edited by loosanarrow; 08/12/20 09:34 PM. Reason: Typo
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: AirportTrapper] #6962511
08/12/20 09:58 PM
08/12/20 09:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 419
Schenectady, NY
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EatenByLimestone Offline
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EatenByLimestone  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Schenectady, NY
Originally Posted by AirportTrapper
Originally Posted by Jim Comstock
I have seen the traps in question or close facsimiles thereof, all the same except for extra parts, for the better part of ten years, very limited in scope and function, the reason I do build them or use them in any of my ADC work. I rarely if ever have requests for them. When I explain the limited nature of a device, not the limited nature of an individual or company, I am just stating fact about the mechanics, period. Chop a hole in the ice and place a tall g door trap, like the one in question, in 16 inches of water for beaver, FROZEN SOLID. What is so darned difficult to understand about a tall trap that is 3 feet tall freezing in shallow water? We have ice here, you don't. I know ice very well. A 12 inch tall trap will work in 16 inches of water under ice. I do it all the time. A tall trap won't. This is not personal, just factual. There are more versatile traps that will work right side up and upside down as well as sideways. Fact. A g door trap will not. A powered door trap made as a rectangle then becomes a trap of two sizes to work in both wide and narrow runs. A g door trap will not. Maybe someone could supply a photo of a 3 foot tall trap in a 2 foot high tube. Under brush a g door trap can get hung up and foul in sticks and leaves. What I point out are merely comparisons between devices that allow everyone to understand obvious differences. I did build one g door trap a number of years ago that is unique, but to date I have not used it or seen the need for it.



I use my g door trap in every way you mention. His trap on its side is the almost the same size as your beaver trap . Not all of Kirk's traps are g doors anyway. Its like you are just grasping at straws trying to knock the traps that are better than yours. I have run them both, side by side in an unbiased setting to get an idea of which one to purchase.



Have all of Kirk's traps been constructed to EMF lowering standards? Before your post I was only aware of the trap he's actively referencing on this thread.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6962513
08/12/20 09:59 PM
08/12/20 09:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,297
Monroeville NJ
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Jonesie Offline
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Jonesie  Offline
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Monroeville NJ
I have been reading and not talking. and I have been setting cages every day and taking readings a lot with different traps and different positions. Both my wife and I are hitting the work hard. with raccoons skunks Squirrels and ground hogs, I am not seeing where these animals reject the cage no matter what the reading is. our rejection is trap shy, not trap smart. on trap smart we let the trap sit there or play with them and they will go in at some point..My wife alone has well over a hundred ground hogs in 6 to 7 weeks plus, I don't know how many coon and skunks. Me I am getting a 80 to 85 percent catch rate no matter what the readings. But I will say I may be correcting the rejection by my baiting strategies and trap position/ placement. As stated earlier many trappers may have learned to over come the field rejection with out really knowing they was doing it. My snares for ground hogs have high readings but no rejections. I will be testing the cages and snares this fall in the true field conditions away from buildings and man made structures that would normally have higher readings. Thus the animals are use to the high readings, (Example horses and cattle around electric fences) where the animals out in the fields and forest away from man made or natural materials that will have high readings the animals are not around and may back off.. I am never one to just say it doesn't work or not real till I have exhausted every little possibility to make it work. I can't set foot traps so I can not add anything to that discussion. Jim one real experiment that can be done and done by you is since you are a true blind setter with cages, taking the readings of a un-baited blind set cage both with both doors open and one door open and see what real time results are with catch rates with your traps..

Last edited by Jonesie; 08/12/20 10:00 PM.

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Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Jonesie] #6962542
08/12/20 10:22 PM
08/12/20 10:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
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Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
Originally Posted by Jonesie
I have been reading and not talking. and I have been setting cages every day and taking readings a lot with different traps and different positions. Both my wife and I are hitting the work hard. with raccoons skunks Squirrels and ground hogs, I am not seeing where these animals reject the cage no matter what the reading is. our rejection is trap shy, not trap smart. on trap smart we let the trap sit there or play with them and they will go in at some point..My wife alone has well over a hundred ground hogs in 6 to 7 weeks plus, I don't know how many coon and skunks. Me I am getting a 80 to 85 percent catch rate no matter what the readings. But I will say I may be correcting the rejection by my baiting strategies and trap position/ placement. As stated earlier many trappers may have learned to over come the field rejection with out really knowing they was doing it. My snares for ground hogs have high readings but no rejections. I will be testing the cages and snares this fall in the true field conditions away from buildings and man made structures that would normally have higher readings. Thus the animals are use to the high readings, (Example horses and cattle around electric fences) where the animals out in the fields and forest away from man made or natural materials that will have high readings the animals are not around and may back off.. I am never one to just say it doesn't work or not real till I have exhausted every little possibility to make it work. I can't set foot traps so I can not add anything to that discussion. Jim one real experiment that can be done and done by you is since you are a true blind setter with cages, taking the readings of a un-baited blind set cage both with both doors open and one door open and see what real time results are with catch rates with your traps..


The animals you named are least likely to respond to a magnetic field intensity. Skunks maybe but they are not definitely named in the studies that Iíve seen to be able to see your magnetic field intensity.Do your testing on beaver and otter on land and youíll find a different results.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: EatenByLimestone] #6962555
08/12/20 10:35 PM
08/12/20 10:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
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Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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Georgia
Almost all of my traps manufactured after 2014 had a low intensity reading .Especially the double door traps whether they be gillotine or lock bar doors


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Kirk De] #6962569
08/12/20 10:48 PM
08/12/20 10:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
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Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Georgia
Originally Posted by Kirk De
Almost all of my traps manufactured after 2014 had a low intensity reading .Especially the double door traps whether they be gillotine or lock bar doors



Traps I actually manufactured in Georgia.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: TownsendTraps] #6962622
08/12/20 11:39 PM
08/12/20 11:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Eastern Iowa
Joe Taylor Offline
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Joe Taylor  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Eastern Iowa
Originally Posted by TownsendTraps
Joe great questions.1) All of these factors you mentioned are important (along with others such as outside temperature, water temperature, etc.) . And with each one, it can play more of a factor at times than others. Trappers use a variety of methods to reduce the detection of their traps. Magnetic fields can also play a part within your trapping strategy. One example is that the direction of the earth's magnetic field is not quite true north to south but actually a few degrees west of true north (Magnetic North) and if you are able to orient your cage in this direction the fields inside the cage will usually reduce more than an east to west orientation, which in turn further reduces the animals detection . That isn't always practical but you can begin to see that using a magnetic field reduction strategy doesn't have to be a separate strategy but an addition to your existing strategy.
2) Our traps do well in both urban and rural environments. For instance we have caught red fox, coon, and possum right behind our shop and I am in the city. As far as structures go most are grounded by code for one and secondly the fields that radiate from these things like my metal shop only extend a foot or two away and then the readings go back to nominal. So even in an urban environment the magnetic field isn't saturated by buildings.
3) Depending on where you live the magnetic field intensity outside is close to 50 uT. So this is an animals normal. I just went to one of our traps and the intensity reduces through the trap all the way to the wire triggers to about 25 uT. 50% reduction. Once the animal gets to our triggers less than 1.4 seconds later he is trapped. The point is to eliminate any reason for the animal to reject your trap and let the trap do it's job.


Thanks for taking the time to answer each of my questions. However, generally your responses did not address what each question raised. Iíll clarify my questions, as Iím interested in gleaning from your years of accumulating scientific evidence.
1. Where would you rank magnetic field aversion amongst all the other factors that may impede or encourage a wild animal from entering a non-positive trap set? I gave as examples trap size, odor, bait presentation, trap placement, lure draw, animal intelligence, and animal trapping history. If aversion to the magnetic field is higher than all of these, then I and others are missing out on a huge opportunity to improve our catch rate. If it is last in the ranking, then we probably donít need to spend much time thinking about it except when that rare individual leaves us scratching our heads. Maybe there is nuance in your answer, such as Species A is much more trap shy than Species B due to its greater sensitivity to magnetic fields. This is where you can speak from all the data you have collected over the years. Your answer didnít address how magnetic field sensitivity ranks within the other factors, but mainly stated that magnetic fields are one of many variables, and how to lower its effect.
2. How does trap aversion due to magnetic field detection compare between urban and rural environments? Iím glad that your traps do well in both urban and rural environments, and Iíve found that my traps do well in both urban and rural environments. However, my question is focused on animal behavior, and the tendency of most animals to quickly deprioritize negative stimuli. For example, people think leaving a light on at night will scare a raccoon away for good. But what so often happens is the raccoon takes notice of the light, perhaps temporarily adjusts its course, but soon ignores the light and resumes its prior activities. I envision urban wildlife having a similar reaction to increases in magnetic field intensities as they are in an environment that has a lot more metal. My hypothesis is that in rural settings the aversion would be statistically greater, since they encounter fewer spikes in magnetic fields, and a trap would really stand out to them. Pulling from your years of monitoring trap magnetic field readings in both rural and urban settings, I imagine you can speak to how trap aversion differs between these environments.
3. What species perceive magnetic fields at this 50 uT threshold? Iím not sure that you previously listed which wildlife you have empirically confirmed detect magnetic fields, but this seems important for at least two reasons: (1) any species that has no perception of magnetic fields will not avoid traps for this reason, and we do not need to factor this in while setting a trap, and (2) if you wish to validate your hypothesis that some animals avoid traps due to detecting elevated magnetic field intensities, then youíll want to have a baseline intensity for each species you test the traps on. For example, ďPeer-reviewed Journal X tested Species A under controlled conditions and determined they can sense magnetic fields of from 75 uT down to 45 uT, but did not respond to any below.Ē Maybe this data exists independently, or maybe scientists have never been interested in knowing this information, but it would certainly help validate your claims if it was known what range of intensities each species can detect. For example, if an animalís perception of magnetic field intensity quickly drops off slightly below 50 uT, then thinking that you need to drop the intensity inside the trap to 25 uT is incorrect. But if their perception extends down to 25 uT, then maybe it does make a difference. You may not know this information, so Iím not trying to beat you up on this one, but it would greatly help either validate or negate your hypothesis that lowering the magnetic field intensity helps reduce trap aversion.

Cheers.


Joe Taylor
Paw Control Wildlife Solutions | pawcontrol.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Joe Taylor] #6962645
08/13/20 12:16 AM
08/13/20 12:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
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Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
Low magnetic field intensity is very important in rank right up there when youíre dealing with red fox coyotes, beaver, otter, and free roaming dogs. In my testing I got so sick and tired of using the traps that have a high intensity for the testing.I had to just make myself use them. That was cage traps and exposed Body grip traps.
As far as an urban setting comparison Iíll give you this one. I have a fellow that owns four traps like we are making now. Heís a nuisance trapper from Oklahoma. Heís has told me several times with the local nuisance trappers are constantly asking him how he catches the red Fox so easily. He says itís the traps . I have gotten several locations in the past when Iíve got as many as 10 to 12 beavers over 14 day period of time on land crossovers at one location in one trap.Iím certain that itís the magnetic field intensity reduction. Sometimes itís a lot easier to set a trap on land then to get down in the water because of the situation. Iím not saying they wonít avoid sometimes but itís very few times , Very few if the set is done properly.I doubt if 95% of the trappers out there would even know or notice Avoidance.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6962653
08/13/20 12:54 AM
08/13/20 12:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 419
Schenectady, NY
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EatenByLimestone Offline
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Schenectady, NY
If skunks and woodchucks aren't bothered by magnetic fields I'm good to go. That's 98% of what we're hired to catch.

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: EatenByLimestone] #6962733
08/13/20 07:33 AM
08/13/20 07:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
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Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Georgia
Originally Posted by EatenByLimestone
If skunks and woodchucks aren't bothered by magnetic fields I'm good to go. That's 98% of what we're hired to catch.


I didnít say they werenít bothered theyíre less likely to be bothered. A high intensity field will disrupt the molecules around the trap causing the trap to emit more of an odor.
The animal can notice the trap because of that disruption.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Kirk De] #6962746
08/13/20 07:52 AM
08/13/20 07:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
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Kirk De Offline
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Kirk De  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Georgia
Originally Posted by Kirk De
Originally Posted by EatenByLimestone
If skunks and woodchucks aren't bothered by magnetic fields I'm good to go. That's 98% of what we're hired to catch.


I didnít say they werenít bothered theyíre less likely to be bothered. A high intensity field will disrupt the molecules around the trap causing the trap to emit more of an odor.
The animal can notice the trap because of that disruption.

In the south we have a lot of fire ants. A high intensity field from a trap will create or Cause the fire ants to produce a pheromone that pheromone causes more ants to come to the trap.That in itself is a real problem


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6962871
08/13/20 09:57 AM
08/13/20 09:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 249
New York
Jim Comstock Offline
trapper
Jim Comstock  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 249
New York
You know all of this reminds me of a study done by a college student in the Adirondacks on Syracuse University property Huntington Preserve on beaver some time back. I rode along. He was trying to determine how beaver responded to castor, which beaver were attracted to what castor. I could have provided the answer before he began, but I just watched. He wanted to know if both large and small male and female beaver responded to male or female castor from both large and small beaver. I donated some castor to the cause. He ran around catching beaver for some time. I caught up with him when it was over. As a lay trapper, not a scientist, it seemed obvious to me that it really made no difference, but I remained silent. In the end he said all castor attracted all beaver, which was exactly what I could have told him before he began.

This discussion is on a parallel. I don't have fire ants and most of the country does not either. I trap a bunch of woodchucks among other things every year. A blanket statement about magnetism is made across the board concerning all animals from a guy who has no woodchucks in his area and does not trap them and yet attempts to tell those of us who have no issues trapping them that somehow he knows that we do have problems. I am not missing chucks, not happening. I remember using our double door traps at one location where they had 5 chucks. Set 6 traps I believe. Had all 5 next morning in hours. This year Noble Armstrong beat my record, set 7 of our traps and had all 7 chucks in hours. I had a chuck job in a horse barn where they had been for more than a year. The owner had done the bait and wait thing the previous year. Caught one young chuck in an entire summer. I walked into the barn, saw a chuck, then set the hole. Walked out back, saw chuck number 2, set that hole. Came back in, already had #1 in 10 minutes. Was looking to set more traps when trap #2 went off, had that one, 2 in 15 minutes. Set 4 more around the edge inside the barn. Got the call 4 hours later, 4 more. Finished the job in 6 hours, 6 chucks. We have educated so many ADC trapper as to the effectiveness of double door cages with nose cones at den sites like you would a conibear. Having guys who had dreaded trapping chucks now say "they call me the woodchuck King," is rewarding on all levels.

Have no idea why anyone would want to trap beaver on land with a conibear or cage as there is always a way in the water with conibears and cages. I found that beaver can swim. After 55 years in the water with conibears my testing indicated that they worked, so I duplicated that with cages 10 years ago, that worked too. I'm not stubborn enough to keep doing something over and over again that does not work to make a point. We find out new things from those in the field doing it on a daily basis. I was on the phone just yesterday with a Louisiana trapper who got 2 of our beaver traps a few years ago to appease do gooders, as a show that they were doing something to live trap beaver, with no expectations, to just set the traps and say "see, we tried." Funny thing happened, they worked, and worked far better than expected and now they use these cages as a first choice, not because they have to but because they worked that well. One of their guys was a foothold man, but he decided to make a dam break, for the fun of it setting 3 of our beaver swim through traps side by side. Next day, 3 for 3. After delving into it deeper I found that catching multiples for these guys was not rare but common, even 3 for 3's. I have done it with castor 3 for 3 and also in streams where I "cover the water." Point being, if there was ever a problem with what I and hundreds of others have been doing for years using thousands of our cage traps, I can assure you we would not continue with failures. I have stacks of testimonials attesting to what we and others are experiencing. Since conibears are but 10 inches high, cage traps for beaver do not have to be tall. A 12 inch trap is plenty high. If there were any magnetic interferences as suggested by the sales team, which I doubt, they are of such an insignificant level as to be meaningless.

After 10 years at this cage thing I guess I could go on indefinitely with examples of success minus the implied failures suggested by others that just aren't there. The list is endless. What it comes down to is all this talk is just that, talk to promote sales. I will dare to say "the emperor has no clothes."

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6962996
08/13/20 02:13 PM
08/13/20 02:13 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 241
Ohio
M
Mike C Offline
trapper
Mike C  Offline
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 241
Ohio
Kirk, are saying that fire ant respond to this magnetic field for box traps or for all traps?

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Mike C] #6963003
08/13/20 02:31 PM
08/13/20 02:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
Originally Posted by Mike C
Kirk, are saying that fire ant respond to this magnetic field for box traps or for all traps?


Itís a high intensity field. Like in our well box at the well. They also get our air-conditioning unit electric box. Anything that projects as a field of intensity will cause ants to release the pheromone.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Jim Comstock] #6963031
08/13/20 03:37 PM
08/13/20 03:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
Your building a tall or leaning tower Jim ,When people find out itís going to come crashing down.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6963096
08/13/20 06:02 PM
08/13/20 06:02 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 241
Ohio
M
Mike C Offline
trapper
Mike C  Offline
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 241
Ohio
Kirk, with all due respect, you did not answer my question. Do fire ants respond (it sounds like your saying they get drawn towards traps) to box traps or all traps that emit this field that you are talking about?

Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Mike C] #6963130
08/13/20 06:55 PM
08/13/20 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
Originally Posted by Mike C
Kirk, with all due respect, you did not answer my question. Do fire ants respond (it sounds like your saying they get drawn towards traps) to box traps or all traps that emit this field that you are talking about?

If the intensity is there for the strength of the field is there it could be foothold or DP traps Or something else That projects the field.


The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: Kirk De] #6963145
08/13/20 07:07 PM
08/13/20 07:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
K
Kirk De Offline
trapper
Kirk De  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Georgia
Originally Posted by Kirk De
Originally Posted by Mike C
Kirk, with all due respect, you did not answer my question. Do fire ants respond (it sounds like your saying they get drawn towards traps) to box traps or all traps that emit this field that you are talking about?

If the intensity is there for the strength of the field is there it could be foothold or DP traps Or something else That projects the field.

I think theyíre also reacting to the molecular brake down caused by the positive ions on the bait in the trap.

Last edited by Kirk De; 08/13/20 07:12 PM. Reason: Clarification

The Real Reasons Animals Are Detecting Your Sets And Devices by Kirk Dekalb
https://amzn.to/2Hn1hxv
http://www.townsendtraps.com
Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6963269
08/13/20 09:14 PM
08/13/20 09:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,491
WA
Vinke Offline
trapper
Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,491
WA
How does EMT differ from EMF?
Feqanciy submitted from city environment is what ADC trappers are dealing with


Re: Magnetic field in cage traps help me Kirk [Re: WileyKiller] #6963473
08/14/20 01:52 AM
08/14/20 01:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
Lakes Region Indiana
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loosanarrow Offline
trapper
loosanarrow  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
Lakes Region Indiana
One of my issues here is what I will call ďsloppy scienceĒ and poorly understood fundamentals.
Again as I stated in another earlier thread - a magnet has no electromagnetic field, and EMF is not created by a stationary magnet. They are not even measured the same - EMF is measured in units of Newtons per Couloumb (or Volts per Meter depending on the unit system being used), magnetic field produced by magnetic objects (like a regular old magnet or piece of magnetized steel) is measured in Gauss or Teslas. And EMF can be affected (attenuated, reflected, etc) by all kinds of stuff, while a magnetic field from a magnetized object is typically affected ONLY by certain metals. Ions, which Kirk mentions in an earlier thread are yet another completely different phenomenon. THESE THINGS ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE! Although they can affect each other in certain specific ways. All of this is well understood science and it has been so twisted and convoluted in these discussions (mostly by Kirk as I read back through) that I just canít make sense of it in light of my understanding of physics. A magnet HAS NO PROJECTED FIELD! A magnet does not make ions. A magnet does not repel or attract ions, although MOVING ions can be deflected by very powerful magnets. So we are dealing with very specialized physics here, and it is therefore easy to just talk about it incorrectly and very few people will even know. Clearly Kirk is using these things interchangeably or does not understand the differences, which is concerning to me. A magnet has a magnetic field, measured in Gauss or Teslas (just different systems like metric vs standard American measures), and it does not go very far (typically a few feet at most) while EMF can project long distance and be reflected.

Ants do indeed react to ELECTRICAL devices. They DO NOT react to magnetic objects. I doubt anyone is electrifying traps, so that means nothing to us.

My other issue as has been pointed out in this thread, is that I have not seen results of a repeatable experimental process with controls. Good solid scientific experiments must be repeatable, so that anyone doing the procedure gets the same results. Since I did not have a clearly outlined procedure, I made my own by just making my traps very magnetic with a greatly increased magnetic field as measured by my iPhone Tesla app (Kirkís suggested method of measuring). I did not find any difference in how animals reacted to them. Now itís worth noting that I was comparing very high magnetic field traps to traps that I have been using for years with whatever magnetic field they have had, that is to say they are not REDUCED field necessarily - they are just whatever they have been before, compared to greatly increased magnetic field. If I was having trouble catching critters in them, I guess it would concern me more, but they were catching fine for years, and they caught fine with greatly increased magnetic field too.

So in summary, I find the loose use of terminology confusing and concerning, and results of my own experiments are not supporting what Kirk and Townsend are saying. And as yet I see no clearly defined experimental procedure to replicate.

Last edited by loosanarrow; 08/14/20 05:04 AM. Reason: Typical typos.
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