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How the Bible came to be. #7339212
08/25/21 12:20 PM
08/25/21 12:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,298
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline OP
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Posco  Offline OP
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I've had a couple PMs with a member talking about how certain books of the Bible were added to the canon of scripture while others weren't deemed inspired.

I thought this might be a better of way of discussing it and gathering input from others. As always, naysayers are welcome.

Thoughts and insights?

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339223
08/25/21 12:26 PM
08/25/21 12:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4,771
Beatrice, NE
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loosegoose Offline
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I don't know enough about how the books of the bible we're decided to comment intelligently on the subject, but it's something I'm interested in. I'll certainly follow along.

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339233
08/25/21 12:42 PM
08/25/21 12:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,894
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
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williamsburg ks
Revelation was a discounted book for a long time. Scholars are not agreed on who even wrote it. When it was being put together by Constantine’s crew they could not even agree on whether or not Jesus was divine. The goal was to unite the empire under a common religion. It is why so much of it has pagan origins. It is still being translated and “interpreted “. The biggest problem is the lack of original documents. If there are any the vatican is not letting anyone see them.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339239
08/25/21 12:50 PM
08/25/21 12:50 PM

J
J Staton
Unregistered
J Staton
Unregistered
J



I know that Grace is sufficient Like LG I don't know enough about the book picking to contribute much.

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: danny clifton] #7339245
08/25/21 01:01 PM
08/25/21 01:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,971
Indiana
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Providence Farm Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
Revelation was a discounted book for a long time. Scholars are not agreed on who even wrote it. When it was being put together by Constantine’s crew they could not even agree on whether or not Jesus was divine. The goal was to unite the empire under a common religion. It is why so much of it has pagan origins. It is still being translated and “interpreted “. The biggest problem is the lack of original documents. If there are any the vatican is not letting anyone see them.



Ya our constitution is still being" translated and interpreted" and it is written in our language not that long ago, not only is the original document available but loads of additional writing that lay out the writers mind sets. The meaning and intent is clear yet here we are.

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339252
08/25/21 01:12 PM
08/25/21 01:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,894
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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danny clifton  Offline
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Where are the original documents? I was led to believe all still in existence were written at least 200 years after the originals.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: danny clifton] #7339259
08/25/21 01:21 PM
08/25/21 01:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,220
Northern Minnesota
BernieB. Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
Where are the original documents? I was led to believe all still in existence were written at least 200 years after the originals.


Not written, copied.

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: danny clifton] #7339264
08/25/21 01:27 PM
08/25/21 01:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 2,353
Missouri
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WhiteTrash 88 Offline
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Missouri
Was the book of Enoch originally included in the Bible, or was it rejected because it didn’t fit the Pope’s agenda. I’ve heard it originally was and then tossed.

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339265
08/25/21 01:28 PM
08/25/21 01:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Does it really matter?


-Goofy-
Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339279
08/25/21 01:50 PM
08/25/21 01:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 13,155
Ky
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jbyrd63 Offline
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Ky
OK there is a series on history channel that is BANNED books of the bible. I didn't watch it first round but did on demand. Very interesting. There are passages written by authors of the bible that was left out of the compilation of the books. Almost all of them in some way shed light on a different Jesus and the story as I was raised to know it. For example I THINK it was Luke or could been mark wrote about Jesus's wife. But that didn't follow KING JAMES VERSION story line so it wasn't included . Tons of more examples !!

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339287
08/25/21 01:57 PM
08/25/21 01:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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So what if Jesus had a wife.


-Goofy-
Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: HobbieTrapper] #7339295
08/25/21 02:12 PM
08/25/21 02:12 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,530
Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
So what if Jesus had a wife.


Theory only in other words Twilight zone:

One problem would be if Jesus had kids, then we would have cults that would say you have to been in the actual DNA or bloodline of Jesus in order for Jesus blood to redeem you. All others not in the family ==Good Luck your on your own.

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: HobbieTrapper] #7339297
08/25/21 02:16 PM
08/25/21 02:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 13,155
Ky
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jbyrd63 Offline
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Ky
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
So what if Jesus had a wife.


Ask King james his version most follow.

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Foxpaw] #7339298
08/25/21 02:16 PM
08/25/21 02:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 13,155
Ky
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jbyrd63 Offline
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Joined: Feb 2014
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Ky
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
So what if Jesus had a wife.


Theory only in other words Twilight zone:

One problem would be if Jesus had kids, then we would have cults that would say you have to been in the actual DNA or bloodline of Jesus in order for Jesus blood to redeem you. All others not in the family ==Good Luck your on your own.

You can get married and not have kids , just saying..............

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339299
08/25/21 02:17 PM
08/25/21 02:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
We have cults now over moon beams and other dreams. Him not having kids hasn’t stopped cults. lol


-Goofy-
Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339300
08/25/21 02:18 PM
08/25/21 02:18 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,530
Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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Foxpaw  Offline
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Southern Illinois
Here is some on the writings, very long so copied out some.

https://enslavedbyfaith.com/analysis-of-languages-of-the-old-testament/

Canaanite language and the Phoenician Influence.

The dominant local culture in Canaan between 1200 BCE to 800 BCE were the Phoenicians and their language and alphabets were used in all of Canaan. The Phoenician were ship builders, merchants and they traded with all the nations in the area as far as modern Italy.

Canaan and particularly the Phoenician city states had a very special cultural and commercial relationship with ancient Egyptians, evidence of which exist from around 2800 BCE.

The relationship covered trade in cedar and material culture, including the development of what was to become the 22 alphabets of the Canaanite/Phoenician writing.[2]

Because of the prominence of the Phoenician material culture in Canaan, a lot of research went into understanding their history and writing. These studies led to the identification and division of the Canaanite writings into two main groups: Proto-Canaanite (those writing found in Canaan) and Proto-Sinaitic (those found in Sinai desert).

The Phoenician writing emerged from these Proto Canaanite/Sinaitic writings, which themselves originated from Egyptian Hieratic script. The Egyptian Hieratic was a writing style which existed side by side with the better known hieroglyphs. It was in wide use in ancient Egyptian commercial transactions, but within Egypt and foreign their trading partners.

It was in the process of these foreign commercial transactions that the hieratic was adapted the the Canaanite language, creating the proto-Canaanite script.

The Phoenician emerged from these proto- Canaanite script and attained its most advanced form around 1050 BCE, showing sophistication and improvement from its original Proto–Canaanite/Sinaitic origin.

With its 22 letters of its alphabet in place, the Phoenician set out to leave their mark around the world. A comparison of the 22 letters of the Phoenician alphabets to what was offered in later centuries as the Hebrew alphabet, show no discernable difference at all.

Due to the sometimes repressive dominance of Christianity, the historicity of the events described in the Old Testament were not challenged until 1500 years later. When that challenge started,, it became necessary for the people who claim the historicity of the Bible to look for evidence to support the claim that biblical events were historical.

The earliest challenge was on the authorship of the first five books of the Old Testament, which books the Bible and tradition claim that Moses wrote.

To sustain the claim that Moses was the author, they had to show that the ancient Israelites had some kind of writing, even a rudimentary one that Moses could have used in writing the first five books of the Bible.

The search for Hbrew language was undertaken while complerely ignoring the fact that according to the Bible the only education Moses could have received was in Egyptian writing system and that woild have been the language he would have written in and not in Hebrew.

With emerging evidence that the Bible is nothing but allegorical myth, written for theological purpose and not a historical book, the pressure was on the advocates of the historicity of the Bible to provide tangible proof showing historical validity of the stories and Moses’ authorship.

The quest to prove the Bible stories as historical book led many Christian archeologists in early 1900 CE, the most prominent being William F. Albright, to go to Palestine and Egypt looking for such proof. Their approach was simple, they assumed that the Bible was history and with time they will find proof.

Bible versus History. The Exploration to find proof.

With that mind set they were quick to offer any archeological discovery as proof of the Bible, even where it does not apply. One of such application was the Proto-Canaanite writings, many of which were found in Canaan and the Egyptian Sinai.

Those false claims ushered in the debate as to whether the Proto-Canaanite writings that evolved into the Phoenician writing/alphabets were also possibly Proto-Hebrew/Paleo-Hebrew.

The proto-Canaanite script cannot be proto- Hebrew for the simple common sense reason that if we take the Bible claim that the Israelites spent between 215-430 years in Egypt. It is unrealistic to ascribe to them scripts that were in use in Canaan at the time they were supposed to be in bondage in Egypt.

Modern archeologists propose that the emergence of Israelite identity separate from its Canaanite roots was a gradual process and took a definite form around 700 BCE.

According to the proposal, the introduction of the Yahweh cult in Canaan by the Shasu, led a group of Canaanites who fanatically embraced Yahweh worship to distance themselves from their Canaanite cultute and religions.

They fantasized of the exclusive national worship of Yahweh, even if it required the killing of other Canaanites that worshipped other Canaanite gods. This began the polemics against the dominant Canaanite deity, Baal and less so against the chief Canaanite deity El.

The religious practice of Canaan and the group that later emerged as Israelite was polytheist, and remained so, even after the story of the discovery of the Book of the Laws of Moses during the reign of Josiah by the priest Hilkaih.

The story of the discovery of the book of laws has problems with its historicity. The first major problem being that the book of laws was attributed to Moses and modern scholarly consensus based on centuries of archeological excavation is that Moses was not a historical figure and the events in his life were theological myth.

The question now becomes how can there be a discovery of a writing ascribed to someone that did not have a historical existence. The point i raised earlier of the language of Moses’ education bocomes relevant on the question of the language of the book of laws.

The only option we have, shared by many scholars is that the book of laws was a seventh century BCE creation, heralding the resurgence of Yahweh worship.

This book found by Hilkiah has been suggested by some scholars of the Deuteronomistic History school as the foundation for the book of Deuteronomy and was also the foundation around which all the first four Old Testament books were written.

The content of the book of laws is presented as new information to Josiah that he was never aware of. It is surprising that all the people of Judah including their elites and Kings forgot the 10 commandments for centuries, because the writing had been misplaced in the ‘abandoned’ temple.

Josiah’s reaction shows that he was hearing the information contained in the book for the first time, because if the story of the Exodus and the 10 commandments were part of the social myth at that time, there is no way the followers of Yahweh would not have been spreading it, by oral tradition.

There is no way Yahweh worship and its core teaching including the only laws Yahweh gave to them could have been so relegated to the point that Josiah would not have heard about it before the discovery of the book of laws. 2 Kings 22:11-14. 2 Kings 23:4-7.

As the story goes, after the book of laws was read to Josiah, he embarked on large scale religious suppression, destroying places and objects of worship of others that were not Yahweh followers as in 2 Kings 23:20, he slaughtered the High priests and burned human bones on them.

It is surprising to me that most of the writers on this topic simply refer to what Josiah did as religious reformation without acknowledging the pain and devastation caused by his religious intolerance.

The book proved to be a very effective tool in advancement of the interest of Yahweh. Some scholars have proposed that the book found was the skeletal version of the Book of Deuteronomy[img]https://enslavedbyfaith.com/analysis-of-languages-of-the-old-testament/[/img]

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: HobbieTrapper] #7339302
08/25/21 02:20 PM
08/25/21 02:20 PM
Joined: May 2011
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Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Offline
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
So what if Jesus had a wife.


Well, nothing... but if he did why was it eliminated from the books that made it into the Bible?

Interesting post though. Like others I have no idea about why certain books were chosen but am curious.


~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: Posco] #7339305
08/25/21 02:30 PM
08/25/21 02:30 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,530
Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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Writings such as Torah and Talmud were oral until written later.

Then up closer to the Dead Sea Scrolls the Essenes was a big part of handling of the scrolls, I think?

Fire away , I don;t know much maybe some of what I said is a place to start. You know they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,

Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: yotetrapper30] #7339306
08/25/21 02:30 PM
08/25/21 02:30 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
So what if Jesus had a wife.


Well, nothing... but if he did why was it eliminated from the books that made it into the Bible?

Interesting post though. Like others I have no idea about why certain books were chosen but am curious.


Because it wasn’t important?


-Goofy-
Re: How the Bible came to be. [Re: yotetrapper30] #7339311
08/25/21 02:40 PM
08/25/21 02:40 PM
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Indiana
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Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
So what if Jesus had a wife.


Well, nothing... but if he did why was it eliminated from the books that made it into the Bible?

Interesting post though. Like others I have no idea about why certain books were chosen but am curious.



Two prevalent theories. 1. Christians believe the Bible is what God inspired man to put in it period.

2. Mostly nonbelievers that want to discredit say : The Bible was written that way to give the church, king, and men power. In that order. After all the church was more powerful than the king, the king had divine right to rule, and men to control their wife's and families.

I can see both having a valid argument in a debate and the 2nd highly likely giving man's corruption. But I'm a Christian so believe all the Bible not just parts and subscrib to the first one.

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