Don't have time to address all your post, Mark, but I'll be frank about one point.

You say, "God is typically backwards to human logic..." We agnostics notice that kind of statement because it seeks to inoculate religion from any kind of rational challenge. It's a smoke-and-mirrors trick, is what it is. How can anyone inquire into the mind of God, with the hope of understanding it, when His thinking is backwards to our own? Of course we can't know what He expects of us, if we can't understand Him. It brings to mind the Middle Ages, when priests didn't want the people to be able to read the Bible themselves because they might ask troublesome questions.

I thought we are created in His image. Was God only concerned about appearances? Wouldn't He want His creation to understand Him, as much as we can? Of course we can't match His mind, but ours ought to be at least a tiny mirror of It, don't you think?

You'll probably reply that God's ways are mysterious and beyond our understanding. Poppycock! It's the same old trick. It creates atheists and agnostics.

Jim (the leasterest)

Even an agnostic with some common sense should see that the teachings of Jesus Christ are loaded with logic and form a good blueprint for what kind of person we should strive to be.

He was asking for prayer for himself also, you didn't see that?

Morning Jim.
Well, "we're giving 'er all we got Cap'in," as Sulu on StarTrek used to say.
I consistently see that you are stuck on much of what has been referred to as the Dark Ages goings on, teachings, and such.
You seek knowledge amongst the rubble of humans sir Jim. I mean I love King Arthur and all but even I, the serf in the room, can tell that you typically recall and cast those good old days teachings from your non-orthodox teachers upon our discussions, and know in your noggin it wasn't a worthy time. You think Martin Luther rose up against the church's power and might of that day because he was aiming to start a good coffee latte shop at a new age church? Heck no. Corruption and lack of biblical teaching was rampant.
Today, culture more and more ignores it. Then, it corrupted the theology of the God of the Bible.
Men who sought power and not the kingdom of God.
That's not novel. We guard our own hearts today because the flesh battles the Spirit. We are prone to wander.

Anywho, I've shared many times, I'm of the theology that we don't sign folks up. Only the Spirit convicts. But I share even though some call tall this "pearls".
What you may not realize is that there are tens of thousands of interconnecting threads throughout the 66 books of the Bible. From people who wrote sections of it who lived thousands of years apart.
And historical theologians and linguists continue to discover more all the time as the unwrap the splendor of God's Word.
Prophecies written centuries prior that come true. Not some of it but all of it. And some of it has not yet been lived out.
We live in the inter-advent (Advent = coming) age prior to the 2nd Coming of Jesus, and Scripture is clear that it will happen but theologians attempt to figure how all that goes down in the "End Times."

All is well. Humans continue to discover and all continue to live life and then they die.
Some continue to search for meaning fo their life (some say they don't but there is no such person) and most say I'm god and this is what I see.
Hold your breath for 5 minutes.
Grab some air with your bare hands.
Explain the miracle of human love, the difference of love between of a man and a woman and a father or mother for their child... with exactness.
Jump up and be glad that gravity brings you back down but do not ask how that happens.
And countless other examples.

Only a blind person can't see the order of things all around us and as a trapper I can tell the beaver's oily skin used for purpose from a bobcat's fangs used from purpose and know that design is from a creator and not some Darwinistic half-filled in thesis.
They're not gonna make a monkey outta me but you are welcome to accept that heritage.
I think you already have.
And they are a dead species.
Now and forever more.
By design.

Into this world naked I came, and naked I will go out of this world. Old Job was correct.
As is all Scripture.

Blessings!
Mark

Asks for prayers when it suits him but otherwise argues loudly against the existence of God. True character exposed.

Habakkuk's character was exposed as trouble maker always asking too many questions, even bothering God, lol. He addressed his problem asking questions. Jonah on the other hand sidestepped his and even tried outrunning them.

I haven't read this thread in its entirety, but I felt I should address a couple things here. First of all, I agree: the logic you're seeing behind that phrase is the kind of religiousity that seeks to suppress rational thought about real life and the struggles we experience in it, and it irks those of us who do think (or try to) deeply about life, the world, and everything in it. However, I don't think it represents any logic that is promoted in the Bible itself. Yes, I think there are many ways in which the Church went quite astray in the Middle Ages (and many ways we do it today too). One of those things was certainly the suppression of scripture reading by lay people. Did you know that the word "read" in Hebrew is the same word for "call out"? The Bible was supposed to be read aloud in public, and that practice was evidently widespread enough in ancient Jewish culture that the language reflects it.

The image of God stuff is about the role of humanity on the earth. It's a phrase that was used in the ancient world to describe idol statues and kings - physical representations of a deity on earth. Its use in the Bible is also used in conjunction with "ruling" language. It means that God has given all humans (not just kings) delegated authority to run the show on the earth. It isn't about the appearance of humans or about some innate quality that they possess. It's about purpose. Humans are intended to co-rule with God. The major plot conflict in the story of the Bible is when humans rebel and create their own kingdoms under their own authority apart from God. Humans decide to define what is good on their own terms rather than trusting God's definition of what is good. (This is all laid out [initially] in Genesis 1-11, by the way.) I think this is what Mark was talking about (though, like I said, I haven't read all of this, so sorry if I'm misrepresenting you Mark). It isn't that humans are incapable of understanding God's will or desires for us. The problem is that we want to do the things that we want to do instead.

Read any history book, or pick up a newspaper, and you'll find stories about human power structures (political, economic, social, or religious) that are seeking to create some version of "the good life", or working for "the greater good", or otherwise working toward some utopian vision of earthly bliss. In doing so, they justify the oppression, enslavement, plunder, rape, and murder of people and people groups who stand in the way. In our attempts to create a Heaven for ourselves, we create (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). The story of the Bible is about a god who is constantly trying to rescue people from that (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) and invite them to participate in (be agents, or co-rulers in) the Kingdom of Heaven. This is the most basic story of the Bible. No one should believe me on this. I have no authority here, I too am leaster. Just read the book.

The cool thing about the god of this story is that he is constantly trying to make his ways known, so that people can live out their purpose and participate in heaven on earth. In the Bible, there is no mystery about God's will and desire for people. There's just a problem, because people seem to be incapable of carrying it out on their own. That's where Jesus enters the scene to do for us what we are incapable of doing for ourselves. Perhaps that's a discussion for another time.

In reading Jim's reply he recognizes God is real and that is the foundation. Now he can build the rest of the house.

Very well laid out jht.
Dare I say I'm a dispensationalist because of the cooling rod dispensations God has placed multiple times into the red hot core of human sin on earth.
God alone has stopped us all from annihilating one another. Multiple times.

To those like James who only see God as the permitter or enabler or instigator of sin and evil, I would argue that time and time and time and time again, God has stepped in to save us from us.
And continues to do so still.

Thank God!
Cause humans would annihilate each other and give human rationale as to why "he/she started it," "he/she had it coming," "he/she/them/they are not worth my time," and a 1,000 more tag lines as they pulled the trigger, pushed the button, or wiped their blade.

Mingle and love among 'em but I wouldn't trust my eternal rest to humans who are quite a creative, inventing, energetic lot.
All of us

Good post jht.
Blessings,
Mark

I am trying to stat out of this I really am, then you posted this

Triggered?

Why is it hard to stay out if you and Mr. Epstein don't care what believers believe?

Because I dont think you believe that anymore than you believe you have to catch a dominate coyote first to clean out a calving yard

So sayeth you but incorrect on both counts DC.
I wonder why you generally bring grenades to a religious discussion?
And pull pins.

To decree to others that they don't believe what they post?
Interesting.
Perhaps it's you who doesn't believe what you post and transference has dimmed your glass?

Blessings,
Mark

Apparently it was hard to tell who was the real people of God even in those days. Somebody ought to make a show called "To Tell The Truth", I bet it would be a hit.


1 Kings 13:20

20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the Lord came unto the prophet that brought him back:

21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee,

22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

If you've had this or seen how it wipes people out who get it, it scared the crap out of you. I give Jim credit for having an open mind and loving his granddaughter enough to ask for our help in asking our maker for help. Who cares what he believes, he's asking for help, lets give it to him and pray his granddaughter gets through this stuff.

On that, I agree Dash. 100%.

Blessings,
Mark

I thought James said he was an Agnostic. I may be wrong.

Hes not "wiped out" enough to mock those of Faith,,the day after asking for prayers.Did I pray for his grand daughter,,yes,,,will I cry a river for him NEVER.Hes laughing at everyone right now that we pray for his family,,while he mocks us in other threads.He is a sorry excuse of a human.

I enjoy reading these discussions although I don't contribute. I don't think agreement or a "seeing of the light" will every happen with the most vocal participants.

An interesting angle though is the guys like me--the readers. I wonder what Mark, James, Danny, et al. hope to achieve with their comments. Win the debate, truly change the mind of the other, or something else?

I guess I could ask the same question on a political discussion but the religion discussions just seem different.

No birds are flying and I was just wondering...