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Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357730
09/17/21 10:36 AM
09/17/21 10:36 AM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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james bay frontierOnt.
Bobcats in Ontario are along the north shore of lake Huron from about the Soo over to about Temagami and south to about Marten river.That corresponds with the southern range limit of lynx.Bobcats are not overabundant,but some are caught every year.
I skinned a hybrid lynx/bobcat at north bay once that was brought in for the convention.It was caught North of Sturgeon falls.

We have Lynx and fisher where I am but no bobcats.

Your fisher could be outcompeting the bobcats for prey like rabbits.

Fisher dont have that advantage over lynx because lynx can navigate the deep snow much better than fisher so have no problem competing with them for rabbits in winter.In fact one of the reasons why fisher are not that abundant here is that they have a tough time competing with the high numbers of lynx here for the food supply in winter.

Last edited by Boco; 09/17/21 10:42 AM.
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: waggler] #7357743
09/17/21 10:48 AM
09/17/21 10:48 AM
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McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

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McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by waggler
Originally Posted by Pest's Dad
I sorely wish the martens around here would listen to all this stuff about 80% cover, chicots and areas of high snow fall and snow pack depths and landscapes comprised of greater amounts of coniferous forests.

We have practically none of that. Yet, since they secretly reintroduced them, in the east (No body admits to this. It's just not talked about. But, their last known toe hold was in the far west.) Now, they're spreading like a plague, west and heading south.

We're tripping over the darn things here and they're totally protected by law. Can't even look at one sideways. And, yes; They thrive in just about every type of environment we have to throw at them.

This is a very interesting observation.

And some guys in Idaho and Wyoming are starting to encounter marten in riparian zones in sage brush country. Perhaps marten are adapting/evolving to new habitats simultaneously around the globe.

Coyotes in North America seemed to adapt almost overnight to urban environments during the 1970's. And wolf populations have taken-off globally in the past decade or two.


But........Pest's Dad is also talking about a different species of marten. His is the European pine marten whereas ours are American marten. The two have developed differently over time and may be specifically adapted to different habitats.


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357745
09/17/21 10:52 AM
09/17/21 10:52 AM
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Armpit, ak
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Why is this discussion reminding me of one of my Fish and Game Advisory Committee meetings? I have had ADFG present all the information and no body reads it and we waste hours on war stories, and speculation. blush


Who is John Galt?
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357747
09/17/21 10:57 AM
09/17/21 10:57 AM
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Alaska and Washington State
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^^^^^^ (White17)
But maybe martens are starting to show some degree of adaptability. We generally think that adaptations occur only over long periods (eons) of time; but maybe that is not always the case.

I will hypothesize that animals that are generalists, like coyote and wolves, have a greater likelihood of relatively rapid adaptation, versus animals that are specialists like lynx.
Where do marten fit (generalist versus specialist) I don't know. However, unlike lynx, marten do have a broad range of things that will satisfy their diet.

Last edited by waggler; 09/17/21 10:58 AM.

"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357750
09/17/21 11:03 AM
09/17/21 11:03 AM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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james bay frontierOnt.
The main reason marten here have adapted to avoid open country

[Linked Image]

Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Boco] #7357751
09/17/21 11:05 AM
09/17/21 11:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,173
Midland, Michigan
Rusty Axe Camp Offline
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Originally Posted by Boco
The main reason marten here have adapted to avoid open country

[Linked Image]


Bob Noonan opened my eyes to the avian predator idea a few years ago while talking at a convention. Changed the way I scout for marten for sure.




Erik Johnson
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357756
09/17/21 11:10 AM
09/17/21 11:10 AM
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McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

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I agree with most of that Waggler.

It also occurs to me that canines can populate much more rapidly than mustelids. Why ? Because of much earlier sexual maturity in canines and far larger litters than in the mustelids, and much shorter gestation periods in the canines. Also, the predation rate on martens is likely higher than on canines.

I would theorize that adaptations can take place more rapidly if the rate of recruitment into a given population is greater.

Also canines generally cover larger territories than marten........probably because they must and partly because they can.

It just seems to me that marten have so many highly restrictive criteria associated with their breeding and habitat requirements that it should surprise us when we see an abundance. IMO they are an extremely complex critter.

Maybe Gulo will weigh in on this


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357763
09/17/21 11:26 AM
09/17/21 11:26 AM
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Alaska and Washington State
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^^^^^^
I certainly agree that marten are a complex and somewhat mysterious critter.

I remember a few years ago I scoffed when I heard that they were introducing marten into the Black Hills of South Dakota. I've driven through the Black Hills, and it sure doesn't look like marten habitat to me, it seemed much too dry. However, to my surprise, I hear they are having some success.


"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357764
09/17/21 11:28 AM
09/17/21 11:28 AM
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Armpit, ak
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"Harvest estimates in these areas were 2,073 in Minnesota (Erb 2010) and 290 in Michigan (D. Etter, Michigan DNR, unpublished data) in 2009."


" In 2007, 499 trappers spent 4,407 recreational days trapping martens in Michigan (Frawley 2008). "

Looks like half a marten a year? I know different years.


Who is John Galt?
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: waggler] #7357766
09/17/21 11:31 AM
09/17/21 11:31 AM
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McGrath, AK
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Originally Posted by waggler
^^^^^^
I certainly agree that marten are a complex and somewhat mysterious critter.

I remember a few years ago I scoffed when I heard that they were introducing marten into the Black Hills of South Dakota. I've driven through the Black Hills, and it sure doesn't look like marten habitat to me, it seemed much too dry. However, to my surprise, I hear they are having some success.



Yeah when I picture the area around Rushmore that doesn't seem like marten country to me. Not because of the dryness but because of the relative openness of it. The trees are fairly far apart . On the other hand, there are turkeys there so the cover must be reasonable.

I don't think marten would be real dependent on water but I think you mean as water pertains to foliage ??


Mean As Nails
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357782
09/17/21 11:56 AM
09/17/21 11:56 AM
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Armpit, ak
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Be careful what you wish for. With marten reintroduction and successes will come trapping restrictions on other species that are far more profitable when you are limited to catching a few marten.

If you don't have the restrictions, marten populations probably won't do too good.


Who is John Galt?
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357812
09/17/21 12:35 PM
09/17/21 12:35 PM
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Armpit, ak
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Black hills management plan

"The factors most likely to be limiting to martens in the Black Hills are extensive cutting of white spruce forests, fuel wood cutting in or near spruce-dominated stands, high-intensity fires over large areas of spruce-dominated forest, and weakly regulated trapping."

Last edited by Dirt; 09/17/21 12:54 PM.

Who is John Galt?
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357859
09/17/21 01:39 PM
09/17/21 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,540
Idaho, Lemhi County
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Gulo Online content
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As usual, I'll embark on a brief session of verbal diarrhea.

I certainly agree with the above post from white17 that animals with generational periods that are relatively short, can, and do, evolve quicker than critters with longer generational periods. Contrary to the common line of thinking, animals do not genetically adapt to changes that they encounter in their environment. Rather, those adaptations are occurring constantly, whether the habitat is changing or not. The vast majority of those genetic adaptations are actually maladaptations, and those individuals don't do any better at surviving and passing on their "bloodline" to their offspring. If those genetics are indeed maladaptations, that individual often falls out of the gene pool, never to pass on those genes. Every once in a while, the chance genetic change is actually beneficial to the individual, and its chances of living a long and healthy life are increased, thus the chances of contributing offspring increases, perhaps also carrying that beneficial gene. Thus changes are constant. For animals (marten, for instance) with small litter sizes, long gestation periods, delayed adulthood, those changes in their genetic make-up take longer periods of time to become commonplace among the overall population.

I was contacted some time ago about transplanting marten to a couple of sky islands in Nevada. Apparently, there was evidence that marten previously inhabited at least a portion of those sky-islands, and NDOW (Nevada Fish and Game) wanted to re-introduce them. Before getting involved, I first asked if monitoring would take place, and if the transplants were successful, would trappers be allowed to harvest. NDOW assured me that yes, that was the plan. They had done some preliminary work, and it appeared to me that there was probably sufficient food resources to sustain marten populations. During the course of numerous discussions, I asked which species of marten they originally had, and was that the species they wanted returned? My question was met with deafening silence. I'm outspokenly in denial over the recent splitting of marten in North America into the two species (American marten, Martes americana and Pacific marten, Martes caurina). In my opinion and research, the differences between these two critters is negligible, and certainly not enough differences to warrant distinct species (but that's an entirely different discussion). Through another couple of years, I got no more inquiries about doing the work, and I assumed the potential program simply died on the vine.

The reason I bring this up is to illustrate the variability in what habitats and conditions marten are able to survive and prosper. Yes, the Dakotas don't seem to be country that I would call decent habitat. Likewise, neither is the habitat that waggler mentioned (the thin willow riparian bounded by desert sagebrush, in which I currently trap marten). Consider some of the most productive marten habitat in North America. The temperate rain forest of SE Alaska is phenomenal marten country. Likewise, the extremely different taiga of interior Alaska is very productive marten country. These habitats are like night and day, yet marten seem to have adapted quite well.

I've spent a lifetime trying to understand predator natural history. I've done years of research on marten, mink, river otters, wolverines, and badgers, as well as several non-Mustelid predators (Ursids, Felids, Canids). I've also spent that same lifetime trapping those mustelids. I'm forever astounded at what we still don't know. Marten, in particular, are somewhat of an enigma, in that biologists and trappers alike have not figured out most of the factors influencing their populations, and we still have a poor understanding of how to manage for sustained high populations. I wholeheartedly agree, marten are complex and mysterious.

Jack

Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7357865
09/17/21 01:51 PM
09/17/21 01:51 PM
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Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
Sharon Offline
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Love your insights , Jack. All the time.

Your thoughts sent me right to those other threads about this subject, on the Wilderness forum some time ago. I enjoyed those comments from everyone immensely.

I still am pleasantly surprised at the varied terrain people find them in, for example, yours .

From my hat furs, I do agree that amazing marten are trapped in SE AK. And other northern areas too. Russia is a whole 'nother subject, too !

I smile every time I see your experience with the NDOW. Still crickets .... grin

Thank you for your valued input .

Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7358017
09/17/21 05:48 PM
09/17/21 05:48 PM
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Dunbar, Wisconsin
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Wow I didnt think this would be such an informative thread. Thank you to all the contributions.

Surprised after these centuries no in introduced European marten or russian Sable.


I also know more niw about marten breeding. In amazing that they produce any offspring considering the things I've read.

Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7358107
09/17/21 07:46 PM
09/17/21 07:46 PM
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Wisconsin
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That's the problem they don't here In WI.


The forum Know It All according to Muskrat
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7358122
09/17/21 07:55 PM
09/17/21 07:55 PM
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Armpit, ak
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"A live-trapping and track count study was conducted from 1983 to 1985 in and around the Nicolet Marten Protection Area (MPA) to estimate marten abundance and distribution after reintroduction (Kohn and Eckstein 1987). Eighteen martens were captured during this study, but none were recaptures of released animals. Thus providing good evidence that the population was reproducing. "

Last edited by Dirt; 09/17/21 07:55 PM.

Who is John Galt?
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7358252
09/17/21 09:43 PM
09/17/21 09:43 PM
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Alaska and Washington State
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Originally Posted by Pike River
Wow I didnt think this would be such an informative thread. Thank you to all the contributions.

Surprised after these centuries no in introduced European marten or russian Sable.


I also know more niw about marten breeding. In amazing that they produce any offspring considering the things I've read.


Your post reminds me of the movie Gorky Park. It was a rather complex movie with a lot of subplots, about an attempt to smuggle live sables out of Russia. However, if I remember correctly the "sables" shown in the movie were either Baum marten or European pine marten (large orange throat patches).
This movie came out in the late '70's I believe.


"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Pike River] #7358397
09/18/21 01:23 AM
09/18/21 01:23 AM
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Europe
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Yep. I can confirm the big, yellowish orange throat patch on the pines. One time, years ago now, the birds told me there was something amiss. Next thing ye know I'm tracking this big, buck mink along a waters edge, hundred yards away. Had him in the cross hairs and was just waiting for that still moment.

Then, all at once he stopped and turned to look my way. That throat flag seemed to fill my lens! I raised the barrel and thought how close I'd come.

That was years ago. Like when we'd still give a friendly nod and a smile of tacit welcome to a brown face in our tiny villages .....

Re: Wisconsin Marten [Re: Boco] #7358422
09/18/21 06:34 AM
09/18/21 06:34 AM
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sseMinnesota
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Originally Posted by Boco
Bobcats in Ontario are along the north shore of lake Huron from about the Soo over to about Temagami and south to about Marten river.That corresponds with the southern range limit of lynx.Bobcats are not overabundant,but some are caught every year.
I skinned a hybrid lynx/bobcat at north bay once that was brought in for the convention.It was caught North of Sturgeon falls.

We have Lynx and fisher where I am but no bobcats.

Your fisher could be outcompeting the bobcats for prey like rabbits.

Fisher dont have that advantage over lynx because lynx can navigate the deep snow much better than fisher so have no problem competing with them for rabbits in winter.In fact one of the reasons why fisher are not that abundant here is that they have a tough time competing with the high numbers of lynx here for the food supply in winter.
. One of the reasons sited in Minnesota for lower fisher populations in certain regions is they are out competed by bobcats

Last edited by blackhammer; 09/18/21 09:18 AM.

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