Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7459120
01/13/22 02:03 AM
01/13/22 02:03 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276 alaska
trapped4ever
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276
alaska
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This is what many of my adult marten will look like. They have fat accumulated on the backs of their thighs, on their gut/ groin/ hips, along their spine between their shoulder blades, on the outside of their front legs/ shoulders, on the inside of their front elbows, and around their necks too.... This is not to mention the visceral fat deposits, both intestinal and big hard solid chunks packed right up against the spine, internally.... Then the skins themselves have to be fleshed just about everywhere too, since they are coated with fat deposits. My marten have always seemed to be well fed, so either the habitat and food are ideal, or they are exceptionally adept hunters....??
Last edited by trapped4ever; 01/13/22 02:36 AM.
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7459456
01/13/22 01:03 PM
01/13/22 01:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514 Orergon
alaska viking
"Made it two years not being censored"
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"Made it two years not being censored"
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514
Orergon
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T4E, is that normal, every year? I suspect they will have a lot of dead deer to feed on, this winter, and spring.
Just doing what I want now.
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7459540
01/13/22 01:54 PM
01/13/22 01:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276 alaska
trapped4ever
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276
alaska
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These all were caught back up in a mountain pass, approximately 10 miles from the nearest beach, so not too likely they are scavenging beaches, and no salmon carcasses left along rivers, so I doubt fish calories are a factor. Like I said, this is pretty normal for many of my adult marten. The juvenile/ YOY are not generally nearly as fat, I'm assuming due to more calories being devoted to growth/ development, and probably still not being as adept/ experienced at hunting, plus possibly still figuring out various food sources? I suspect a lot of these marten around here do capitalize on Winter killed deer, of which there is an abundance this year ( I was finding Winter kill by the opening day of trapping season). However, even on years with very little to no snow, and warm temperatures, ( so I'm assuming much less deer mortality), my marten still look like this, so I do not think deer carcass scavenging comes into play as much as some may assume. My observations over the years, and various regions of the state I have trapped, all point to one basic, fairly obvious fact. Good habitat/ food resources support a more dense population, of overall healthier/ fatter marten. I know this is a very simple premise, but having trapped a variety of regions around the state, I have seen the "normal" type of marten many of you mention, with very little fat on their carcasses, which leads me to assume they have a tougher time hunting up enough calories to survive, hence, probably a lower reproductive rate/ or at least a lower survival rate, thus the lower population density? This mountain pass these marten were taken from has been productive this year apparently, since the three checks on that line were all similar. Winding up the valley approaching the pass, in the lower elevations, only an occasional marten here and there was captured, and most of these were smaller, skinnier juveniles/ YOY and females (at low densities), once up in the higher part of the pass, much more consistent catches (higher densities), and mostly big, fat marten, mostly males, but some big, fat females too. This was the same pattern for all three checks of that line. Again, this would be a fairly normal scenario around here, with the marten seemingly "congregating" in areas of high food abundance. This often creates the problem of captured marten being cannibalized or being territorially chewed/ bitten, since high densities involving large males seems to raise territorial display behavior. In locations like this, I tend to set traps pretty densely, to avoid as much damage as possible. I'd rather catch them all quickly and move on anyways, but especially if it will help avoid damages. What I have been able to decipher as a best guess (checking stomachs/ droppings), is that my marten consume a lot of Keen's Deer Mice, and Long-Tailed voles. This is by no means the only food they consume, but is the most consistent food base they seem to prey upon around here. Winter kill fawn from earlier this Fall. No marten or birds were working on it yet.....
Last edited by trapped4ever; 01/13/22 02:24 PM.
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7459576
01/13/22 02:23 PM
01/13/22 02:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,503 Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
Sharon
"American Honey"
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"American Honey"
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,503
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
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Fascinating experiences and info, T4ever. along with your area's plenty, good habitat , you also have among the most amazing variety of colours I have ever seen from any area , so far.
I can't help but keep thinking of how Jack must love seeing this unfolding educational information.
And the ermine statistics in your area would be just as much intriguing for himself, and many others of us, as well.
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7459589
01/13/22 02:31 PM
01/13/22 02:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,519 james bay frontierOnt.
Boco
OP
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OP
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james bay frontierOnt.
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Not normal for marten here to carry fat like that.I agree the carrying capacity of that habitat for marten is high if fat like that is the norm.Body fat on female marten late in the season means high reproductive sucess also. In years of high population here the rate of cannibalism increases,but they are no more fat than other years.probably less so.Followed by a drop in numbers the next year.
T4E,do your marten populations cycle noticeable over time?Say in a 10 year period would there be any noticeable fluctuations from extremely high to almost non existant?I would guess not.
Last edited by Boco; 01/13/22 02:32 PM.
Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7459804
01/13/22 06:41 PM
01/13/22 06:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 2,365 Interior Alaska
Oh Snap
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 2,365
Interior Alaska
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In the area I trapped the snow was a lot deeper at tree line and the brush line. I believed that along with voles there were also berries, ptarmigan. While snow shoeing I have broken through the deep snow and found trails in the brush that I felt that was the reason marten were in that location. And also warmer with all the snow cover and elevation inversion!
Last edited by Oh Snap; 01/13/22 06:42 PM.
I love the smell of burning spruce---I love the sound of a spring time goose---I love the feel of 40 below---from my trapline I will never go!
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7459953
01/13/22 09:18 PM
01/13/22 09:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276 alaska
trapped4ever
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276
alaska
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T4E,do your marten populations cycle noticeable over time?Say in a 10 year period would there be any noticeable fluctuations from extremely high to almost non existant?I would guess not.
Yes, I have seen approximately 7-9 year cycles, with a slow year or two of production after the "crashes", during which years I generally limit my harvest even more conservatively than usual. In this region, the population dynamics are much different than many of the other regions of Alaska, in which I have trapped. This has always been my primary trap line, now I am going into I guess my fifth decade of trapping it (all through the 80's, 90's, 00's,10's, and now '20's), however even though I have trapped it every one of those years, I also used to travel up to the interior, and trap some other lines as well, in various locations. I never trapped any of them consistently enough to establish a pattern or cycle, but I haven't really heard too much about any consistent marten cycles from the interior trappers I know. T4E: Do you think drainage has anything to do with the greater densities at higher elevations ? I'm just thinking about vole/mouse holes being less susceptible to flooding on top of the hills as opposed to lower down the slopes No, not necessarily...... In some parts of my line, right down along sea level is a much higher marten population density, than at higher elevation. In some circumstances, it could of course be possible....?? The key ingredient that trumps all others, seems to of course be quality of habitat, and abundance of prey species. I think honestly, to have a better understanding of the dynamics of what habitat is ideal or preferential to high marten densities, and the microtine cycles contained in these regions, I would need a better grasp of the food resources and it's corresponding abundance and density, for these microtine prey species. ie. what seeds, grasses, fungi, insects, carcasses, etc. are these microtines consuming, and what weather patterns, soil types, etc., help contribute to these prey species flourishing?? I don't feel as if I have any actual solid understanding of these prey species and their corresponding food resource's dynamics........ So instead, I manage my line through my own long term proven methods, of a multitude of observations throughout the year. Aside from noting the usual percentage of YOY marten in the harvest, track and scat observation and abundance, I would say by far, my most important method of management, since I have PLENTY of surrounding refugia, is to pay CLOSE attention to catch rates as a whole, over the entire range of my trap line. Thinking of this as a term more like a biologist would call trap nights, this indicates the overall abundance and density more accurately than any other method I have found. In other words, if they aren't there you can't catch them, if they are there, you will catch them. Considering that I have an abundance of surrounding refugia, as long as I don't exceed a reasonable duration of time that I have traps set in an area, I will leave plenty of marten to continue the acceptable harvest, next year. In my opinion, a big problem marten trappers have faced in many regions, has always been trappers leaving sets in locations for too long of a duration (like the entire season), in regions of quite low abundance and population density, thus harvesting to many marten from a given region, and keeping populations artificially low, due to overharvest in that region. Covering more area and establishing new sets, instead of harvesting more from the existing trap sets, is the key to consistent larger catches. This isn't a strategy that will work for everyone, since it consists of a lot of time and work/ effort, plus you need a lot of open space, without trapping competition. Areas with RTL's like Canada would possibly/ potentially be limited in the ability to expand enough. Of course, it would all depend upon how many marten you are attempting to catch...?? I'm not sure about all species of voles, but our Long-Tail voles are VERY tolerant of flooding/ water intrusion. I guess anything living in this region HAS to be tolerant of water, if it is going to thrive Our voles live all over the tidal grass flats at the mouths of most rivers, and in the riparian vegetation along the beaches/ watersheds. In the Spring, there are tangled webs of vole clipped tunnels running everywhere along these tidal grass flats. Tidal incursion doesn't stop them, they swim to higher ground if the ocean reaches them in their tunnels/ holes, then reclaim the former home range, when the tide goes back out. A couple years ago, I was waterfowl hunting with a friend of mine who has a falconry permit. One day during an exceptionally high tide in the late Fall, as we were wandering around the tide flats in our chest waders, there were voles swimming like little muskrats all around us. He was just picking them up out of the water by their tails, and filled up a couple empty shotgun shell boxes full of them, to use as live bait, in the bait cages used in falconry, to catch the various hawks and falcons. There were literally dozens of the voles swimming every which way, everywhere you looked. Once the tide dropped, they all came back down off the hummocks and brushy patches of higher ground, and scattered back out into the tidal grass flats. So it didn't appear water intrusion was much of an issue? I can try to take pictures of these vole tunnels this Spring, perhaps? I would think if there was water intrusion while there were un-weaned babies, that would probably be detrimental, and a big build up of ice on the bare ground is probably also difficult for the mice/ voles to deal with?? In the area I trapped the snow was a lot deeper at tree line and the brush line. I believed that along with voles there were also berries, ptarmigan. While snow shoeing I have broken through the deep snow and found trails in the brush that I felt that was the reason marten were in that location. And also warmer with all the snow cover and elevation inversion! I think you are spot on, in your region... I trapped down near W17's line a few winters, just a ways further upriver, and I recall being out on the line during -30 to -40F weather, and actually seeing marten pop up out of those subnivean access holes, run across the surface of the snow for a ways, then dive right back in a soft spot of snow, and go back down into the "warm" weather below. They didn't seem to spend nearly as much time along the colder river valleys, or on the top of the snow, if the weather got down there around -40F.
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7460202
01/13/22 11:51 PM
01/13/22 11:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514 Orergon
alaska viking
"Made it two years not being censored"
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"Made it two years not being censored"
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,514
Orergon
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Still hauling the snow machine in the skiff! I know of nobody that works as hard at what he does as T4E. Glad all is well over there. We've had some weather, 'eh?
Just doing what I want now.
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7460256
01/14/22 01:11 AM
01/14/22 01:11 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276 alaska
trapped4ever
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 276
alaska
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We've had some weather, 'eh?
Yeah, AV, you aren't kidding!! I had armpit deep snow on the far West end of my line (my side of the portage), by the time the season opened. Boat trapping I was iced out of many areas by the first week or so. Airboat access would possibly work at some of these locations, but to much rough open water between here and there to make it advisable. The snow machine trapping has been a pain too, with the snow load bringing down lots of trees. I cut through over 100 to make 8-10 miles, and limbed the underside of that many, just enough to drive under them. Each trip seems to result in another 15-25 trees to saw through. Certainly wasn't ideal conditions AGAIN this season, but I am doing what little I can A couple feet of ice on some of the bays, by the end of the first month......
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Re: Fat Marten.
[Re: Boco]
#7460273
01/14/22 01:55 AM
01/14/22 01:55 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,519 james bay frontierOnt.
Boco
OP
trapper
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,519
james bay frontierOnt.
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Good Info T4E,thanks for contributing to the thread, Nicely handled marten as per usual.
Last edited by Boco; 01/14/22 01:56 AM.
Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
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