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Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . #7640521
08/02/22 01:19 PM
08/02/22 01:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,277
Central Ohio
LT GREY Offline OP
trapper
LT GREY  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,277
Central Ohio
Recently, I saw a video ( DVD ), where a man who I admire and respect commented that when a coyote buries a piece of meat, it "pees on it". . .

Hold on a second . . .

I have, over the years, many times, watched both foxes and coyotes using the aid of binoculars, and I've never once seen them urinate on a morsel after burying it.
Neither has any field biologist I've ever talked with, seen documented, or read any of their written material on the subject.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I have watched countless documentaries on wolves, coyotes, foxes, and jackals.
While I've watched them all bury partially eaten food, I've never seen them mark the spot with urine.

But. . .that's what trappers do.

And it isn't natural !

Marking a spot with urine attracts an animal to a certain spot
And why would you want to attract attention to something you want to hide ?


A good way to get it stolen, if you ask me.

Canines know this and that's why they do NOT mark buried food, IMO.
That's been my experience, Therefore, my belief.


But trappers do it and they do it with bottled, aged urine.
Why is that ?

Somewhere on here, I read a thread about making a Cache Set, where, if I understood it correctly, buried the bait and then set the trap right over the bait.
To me, that seems like a good way to find your trap exposed and dug up, if not snapped off.
Granted an animal could get caught in a trap, set on a hair trigger, but why would you not place the trap where the animal would step, as opposed to overtop the bait ?

I've set a good many Cashe Sets, all with the trap out font, none of them with urine.
If I do use urine, it's always upwind, at another set.
That makes far more sense to me.

When a canine buries a piece of food (flesh), it rakes out a shallow hole with both front feet, tucks the morsel in the hole using its mouth, then fills in the hole, using its nose.
It doesn't then mark it with urine.
It simply walks away

And so should you. . .

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640534
08/02/22 01:37 PM
08/02/22 01:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
trapper
Yes sir  Offline
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Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Natural isn't always the best. Sometimes it has its advantages on the difficult ones. Around here if I made a cache set as u described using straight fresh rabbit and a deep dirt hole Set beside it with a good lure that has ingredients in it that these coyotes have never smelled I know without a doubt which would catch more coyotes.

I know a guy that caught 900+ coyotes in a fur season. I'd like to see you convince him he's doing it wrong and to give up urine at his dirt holes.

If urine attracts other critters to the hole as you stated isn't that a good thing for a trapper? See coyotes are trying to hide there food and trappers are trying to attract others to it.
You say its a good way to get it stolen.. i want them to try and steal it.Two different agendas.

Last edited by Yes sir; 08/02/22 02:07 PM.
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640615
08/02/22 04:18 PM
08/02/22 04:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,084
Wisconsin
T
The Beav Offline
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The Beav  Offline
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Posts: 23,084
Wisconsin



When I place urine at a dirt hole set It's never In the hole. It might be 2' from the set or 12" from the actual set but NEVER In the hole or on the backing.


The forum Know It All according to Muskrat
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640622
08/02/22 04:22 PM
08/02/22 04:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
trapper
Yes sir  Offline
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Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
If u have never tried it how do u know which way is most effective?

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640629
08/02/22 04:30 PM
08/02/22 04:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,227
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERBBB Offline
trapper
SNIPERBBB  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,227
Rodney,Ohio
Pretty much what Charlie wrote years ago. He said the only time he saw them mark a cache was AFTER they robbed it.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: SNIPERBBB] #7640655
08/02/22 05:10 PM
08/02/22 05:10 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 8,490
SW Georgia
W
Wanna Be Offline
trapper
Wanna Be  Offline
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 8,490
SW Georgia
Originally Posted by SNIPERB🦝
Pretty much what Charlie wrote years ago. He said the only time he saw them mark a cache was AFTER they robbed it.

He also said heíll make a dirt hole with no bait and just urine in the hole.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640658
08/02/22 05:15 PM
08/02/22 05:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
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Yes sir  Offline
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Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
As Lt stated. It's a good way to get ur bait stolen. I'm for them to try and rob me.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640662
08/02/22 05:25 PM
08/02/22 05:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
trapper
Yes sir  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Grab a camera or make a few test holes and see which way gets the most action.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640667
08/02/22 05:30 PM
08/02/22 05:30 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 8,490
SW Georgia
W
Wanna Be Offline
trapper
Wanna Be  Offline
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 8,490
SW Georgia
Not arguing because most on here are much better trappers than I, but if it isnít natural, why does it work?

ďMostĒ everything you read or see, says bait down the hole, lure on the lip or up high, and urine on the backing. The hole is generally below the backing.

Last edited by Wanna Be; 08/02/22 05:48 PM.
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Wanna Be] #7640673
08/02/22 05:40 PM
08/02/22 05:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,227
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERBBB Offline
trapper
SNIPERBBB  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,227
Rodney,Ohio
Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Not arguing because most on here are much better trappers than I, but if it isnít natural, why does it work?

Its all about the reactions you get from the critters you're chasing. Both ways will work, you just get different reactions and how long theyll work the set will be different.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: SNIPERBBB] #7640702
08/02/22 06:34 PM
08/02/22 06:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
trapper
Yes sir  Offline
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Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Forget worrying about what's natural, you don't need it to catch the majority of the coyotes. Worry about what works. Coyotes don't pee at a cache for the same reason trappers use urine at the set...... it attractants other coyotes. Coyotes don't want robbed trappers want robbed.
Originally Posted by SNIPERB🦝
Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Not arguing because most on here are much better trappers than I, but if it isnít natural, why does it work?

Its all about the reactions you get from the critters you're chasing. Both ways will work, you just get different reactions and how long theyll work the set will be different.

I'm interested in learning what are the differences in reaction at a dirt hole when you use urine in addition to your normal bait/lure and which setup gets them to work the set longer. My experience watching coyotes on videos is when urine is present at the hole they are more confident in working the set, especially in the first couple of days. I personally didn't notice a difference on how long they worked a set or the intensity of them working the set when urine was or wasn't used. That seemed more to do with how much they wanted your bait or lure.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640742
08/02/22 07:29 PM
08/02/22 07:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,227
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERBBB Offline
trapper
SNIPERBBB  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,227
Rodney,Ohio
Urine may/may not of given the sets that were a bit off a bit of a bump but anything out of place at the set seems still to get the majority of the attention of the coyote. Just never ever for me to really mess with urine during the season outside of flat sets.

Last edited by SNIPERB🦝; 08/02/22 07:29 PM.
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640797
08/02/22 08:36 PM
08/02/22 08:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,638
Pa
W
Wright Brothers Offline
trapper
Wright Brothers  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,638
Pa
Lots of lure ingredients non-natural.

I agree they don't mark it unless they stole it,, take that you other k9.

A couple of times in large deer population areas
I skipped the urine and cut back on lure.
Was surprised that the catch rate seemed the same.
I cut back the amount afterwards.

And then there was a trapper in my area that used so much you could smell it way before you seen his set and he did very well.

Hopefully this topic gets traction.


Last edited by Wright Brothers; 08/02/22 08:40 PM.




Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Wright Brothers] #7640806
08/02/22 08:45 PM
08/02/22 08:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,625
Maine
M
Mac Offline
trapper
Mac  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,625
Maine
Lt sir,
How many hundreds of thousands of canines have been caught doing it wrong? I would wager a freaking lot of them.
I hear what you are saying. Fantastic trappers have said the same thing. Old Mr. Charlie Dobbins wrote about his observations.

But again, I would ask how many hundreds of thousands of canines have been caught doing it wrong?

I am not arguing with you. At one time I did not think I could catch canines with out urine, but I was wrong.
But I have caught a crap load using old school methods before "I learned better."

I have cache style sets also that does not have the trap on top of bait. Everyone really ought to read Bill Nelson's book and all of O'Gormans. The Big O covers a lot of ground about urine usage in his books and videos.




Mac



Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640815
08/02/22 08:54 PM
08/02/22 08:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
trapper
Yes sir  Offline
trapper
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
I started collecting my own two years ago. I've been considerably more impressed with the attraction ability of urine since I started using my own. Only reason I bring this up is because when I hear people talking about it not affecting their catch rate I wonder how good is the urine they're using.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640840
08/02/22 09:28 PM
08/02/22 09:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,638
Pa
W
Wright Brothers Offline
trapper
Wright Brothers  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,638
Pa
I think most on this post know good pee.
Last I bought was same vender / product after Russ C bought some.
Before that it was from Bill K.
Yes, quality matters. And yes, there is junk out there.





Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Wright Brothers] #7640876
08/02/22 10:06 PM
08/02/22 10:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
trapper
Yes sir  Offline
trapper
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,658
Marion Kansas
Originally Posted by Wright Brothers
I think most on this post know good pee.
Last I bought was same vender / product after Russ C bought some.
Before that it was from Bill K.
Yes, quality matters. And yes, there is junk out there.

I won't argue that but I have seen people on here that are held in pretty good light on here recommend pee from the same supplier I was buying from before I collected. Had a friend this spring buy urine from 3 suppliers that are smaller dealers and reputable lure makers. He wanted to get to the bottom of the urine debate. He called all three prior to purchasing to verify that there urine was a 100% pure undiluted no additives of any kind. All the verified 100% natural urine. First test.... freezer for 24 hrs... 1 froze totally solid, one 2/3rds solid 1/3 liquid and not a bit frozen. The stuff that didn't freeze He left in freezer couple more days, never froze. He called the guy and the supplier stated again 100% pure no additives but wouldn't give an answer why his urine wouldn't freeze. I believe fewer people know what good urine is than what we would like to believe. Trapping world is relatively small world. Couldn't be too many out there collecting in any kind of significant volume that trappers wouldn't know about. And I know of one that collects but from some testing someone shared with me I also believes he adds to it to increase the volume.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640879
08/02/22 10:08 PM
08/02/22 10:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 40,992
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Offline
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Boco  Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
P-Post sets work good-you dont need any bait for those sets.
Its easy to collect pee on the trapline in winter for the odd few sets.
I will occasionally take frozen wolf bladder pee for some uses also..

Last edited by Boco; 08/02/22 10:13 PM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7640896
08/02/22 10:34 PM
08/02/22 10:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,947
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,947
Amite county Mississippi
LT gotta say it's nice having you back and posting, seems you can get folks talking better then anyone else for some reason. I'll be here waiting to archive this post. You need some help posting pictures let me know LT , figure you have some good ones

Last edited by Wolfdog91; 08/02/22 10:35 PM.

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Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641244
08/03/22 11:03 AM
08/03/22 11:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,445
Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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Southern Michigan
Urine has its place, but it's not cake frosting. smile


Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
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