Mark, amspoker, PAskinner, Posco, Foxpaw, and other Christians on here......

When do we say enough is enough? Our very children and culture is under siege. Is there a threshold somewhere in the New Testament that justifies us taking out the bad guys? Loving one another only goes so far if the other does not think and believe the same way. At what point is retribution justified? I have not found it in the NT if it is there, but I do know that the God of the New Testament is the same God of the Old Testament.
I'm really struggling with this. Are we really only to wait on God's justice and watch wickedness take over and do nothing?

Even the shepherd must kill the wolves.

... just be more of a Stonewall Jackson Christian rather than the hippie kind

Touche' Savell.

Just don't fight alone.

Butterfly effect. If you want large scale change start in your home, your neighborhood, your church. What can you do better to try and improve yourself? What can you do for your kids? Your wife? Jesus choose "fishers of men", not warriors.

Yep, good men know right from wrong.

Good point Donner. Jesus did that no doubt, and the fact that His Gospel not only spread to the romans and greeks, but also the pagans proves that Jesus' Gospel is divine. Nero came later and killed a lot of them, and it did not stop the spreading of the Gospel.

Is there a time though to fight back?

Cruden's concordance thought we were Israel until his father talked him out of it.

We may adhere to a book ,but our adversaries rule in common.

What about Moses?

I agree Chancey think the New Testament is pretty clear that the war is spiritual and not physical. Had the Christians in Rome been fighting back and starting a revolt against an evil and God hating government they would’ve ruined the power of their testimony by acting just as the world and the Romans expected...but by continuing to follow the laws of the land (excluding any laws that prohibited worshipping God or laws that required idolatry) and continuing to worship God and spread the gospel, in the face of the most intense persecution, people began to wonder where their strength came from and the only answer was God.

Which is the point...His glory!

Practically and personally speaking a physical fight, I would only feel justified before God in a self defense scenario. When the fight is brought to me. I know this won’t be popular on here but you asked and I really try to take what I read in the Bible seriously and can’t answer this any different.

Spiritually though? Let’s take the fight to em’! Let’s spread the Gospel everywhere we can. Let’s tell the world what we know is true, that we are a fallen and sinful and rebellious creation that need to repent and follow Christ. There is only one way to salvation, “He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and nobody comes to the Father except through him.” In our culture of acceptance the power of the Gospel is hidden because nobody needs salvation, we are all good the way we are...but the Bible says not a single one of us is good, our best works are filthy rags, the only way we are made pure is through rebirth in Christ Jesus. Becoming a new creation. And that offer of rebirth is there, some will heed some won’t. But I know I personally need to be more bold in proclaiming this truth in my work and other places besides my home ( and Trapperman LOL).

(Luke 22:36) "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. In this scripture Jesus is telling His friends to be prepared for what He knows will soon come upon them, remember the betrayal by Judas is in the back ground.

May not be good but it is possible to be righteous.

Why defend yourself at all, it may just be God’s will that your death may bring conviction to the one who killed you and they come to Christ.

Brother Chancey, Good morning. You ask a question that has been asked throughout all of the history of the Christian faith and it's not a simple question because God and humans are all involved at every level of your question.

I'm a fundamental reader of Scripture, meaning I attempt with prayer for illumination of the Spirit to help me know what I'm reading in a literal sense. Basically, what the Scripture says is what it means instead of assigning meaning to symbolism and injecting myself into every sentence of a book that is about God.
And oftentimes, the original languages (Hebrew and Koine Greek and some Aramaic) have nuance that English may not portray wonderfully, so reading what the words in the Bible mean in their original language is often very helpful as we seek to know "what it means?"
But this is key to remember. The Bible has been used far too long by legalists (today's Pharisees) to discover how to/what to/where/when to do spiritual things in our lives. But in that legalism do we then forget that the Word of God - a Special Revelation - is NOT about us. We're in the text but the Bible is about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

What does the Word reveal? Well, it'll take an eternity to find all of it out, but simply... the Canon of Scripture is meant to help us know Who God is so that we would fall in love with the Creator of all things. Which includes you and me, and everyone else. All things means.... all things.

So with that background, we ask ourselves as Christians, who are we subject to? Paul, who is the divinely anointed minister to us Gentiles, wrote about the government('s) authority in Romans 13 and Mark wrote down Jesus' words about the same topic in Mark 12:17; "And Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were amazed at Him."

Jesus' words are crucial to reflect on in relationship to your question Chancey;
>>>> Give to the government things that are the governments. Material things. These would include taxes, duties, fees, maybe military and civil service, and all that goes with human government, etc. Remember, God establishes human governments as a dispensation of His compassion and mercy, so that we all don't annihilate one another prior to the 2nd Coming. God established human conscious as the first dispensation of His Grace (Adam and Eve hid in the garden (Gen 3:8) and we know that because we read Adam and Eve felt shame and hid in the Garden after the Fall.
>>>> Give to God the things that are God's... spiritual things. Love, morality, relationships, reverence, awe, devotion, etc.

Chancey, it's not easy to watch all that is happening around us but we're no where near where the ancient followers of Christ found themselves, stacked up against the brutal Romans.
As a pastor, I guide my church - which belongs to Christ who rose from the dead as the 1st fruit, with the saints to follow some day - to understand that as followers of Christ, our duties are to God, spouse, children, community (which includes our nation), and the greater world community... in that biblical order!! Most of my congregation tells me that's tough to do. Which it certainly is. Because Satan would have us hate each other, pridefully call out one another, and gloat about immorality as if it were "good."

I am still teaching and leading all of our 5 children as a father to 28-40 year olds, who are raising our grandkiddos in this whackadoddle time, to lean into the Ephesians order of things which I just laid out. And leave the ruling of governments to God as it's always been. I believe America was raised up and emerged victors over the Brits because God made it so. And our great civil war where >600,000 perished freed an enslaved people, just like the Sons of Israel were led out of Egypt. God is always up to something as humans plot against him with the enemy encouraging them every step.

Be joyful knowing HOW the Plan ends brother and you and your tribe have a very Merry Christmas!
We won't fight our way outta any immorality. No other nation every has. God will raise up those of His choosing. As He always has.
Praise God.

Blessings,
Mark

I guess one way to look at is if I kill the lost then I'm sending him to eternal judgement. If I'm in the right and they kill me, I'll spend eternity in a better place.

It gets more complicated when we are sacrificing our own kids to the consuming fire. We get to the point that we not only have to count the cost of taking a stand but count the cost if we don't.

We are living in an upside down world, when wrong is right and right is wrong. One example I'm watching right now is the situation with Amy and TJ on abc. The advertising money says they are a black eye to the sanctity of marriage and are a bad example for our children. While at the same we have a make believe Catholic signing the marriage act into law. I'm left with the feeling that the old wrong is looking better than the new right. Seems to me the sanctity of marriage and setting an example for the kids went out the window a long time ago, when Adam and Steve became a mainstay.

Ephesians 6:12
King James Version

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It may be that we need more soldiers in the spirit field, which is really hard since the pulpits in many places have been overtaken all ready. We are truly fighting a giant and it won't be by our might that we win but by His.

Sounds like a John Book rant. lol

Good post Foxpaw. From Scripture, we know (but do we understand?) that God is slow to anger (Exodus 34:6) and that there have been times God saw that the wickedness of people was great (just before Noah in Genesis 6:5 as one example) and always in those cases.... God's providence prevailed. Our time is no different. We're in the period Paul called the Evil Age, the Last Days between the 1st and 2nd Coming, where Christ's Church is being gathered for God's glory and no weapon will stop this divine plan.

What Christians should be doing is what Christians should have always been doing, acting as people who are called, redeemed, and sealed by our Creator... and NOT like the rest who clamor, and gossip, and bicker, and fight. How's that done? Not by our own means for sure. Impossible. That's why Jesus gave us all as followers the "Helper" within us. Do we seek the Spirit's leading, or do we join with the pack? That's the rub of the flesh Paul wrote every one of his epistles about.

Let's not worry about what the pagans do as much as worry about what us Christians do.
God is in control.

Blessings,
Mark

Good question.

My take on it is that obedience to God will increasingly oppose those of the world.

It's only a matter of time until following God will cause one to have to disobey the government.

The fight will come to those who are striving to follow Christ.

As Mark stated, we are a long ways from being under the boot of the Roman Empire, but things could change fast.

My approach is similar to what donnersurvivor said. I work in the places God puts me-family, and the church body. Work on being a light, " he who is faithful in little, is faithful in much".

If I am to be used to be God in another capacity, preparation starts with how I follow Christ day to day.

Here are some, of many scriptures, that lead me go this conclusion.


Matthew 26
Betrayal and Arrest in Gethsemane
47And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people.

48Now His betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him.” 49Immediately he went up to Jesus and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed Him.

50But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?”

Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

52But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will [j]perish by the sword. 53Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

55In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled


John 18
36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

37Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”



John 16

1“These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. 2They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3And these things they will do [a]to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4But these things I have told you, that when [b]the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
This says to me there may come a time when physical violence is necessary but it should be of the very last resort.