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Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Ken Smith] #7745165
12/16/22 11:16 AM
12/16/22 11:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Flint Hills, KS
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Also to the comment about 1 Samuel 4.... it's important to note that the reason God allowed the Hebrews to be defeated was to destroy Hophni and Phinehas. It was judgment. They had become sons of Belial. And the man who raised them was dead as a doornail upon hearing the news. From that point forth Samuel was the prophet. Don't forget that Phinehas' wife died giving birth but not before she named her son Ichabod which means that the glory of the Lord has departed from Israel. See the sons of Eli had become reprobate and had been rejected from leading the children of Israel so God used the Philistines to destroy them paving the way for Samuel. I believe you are wrong by saying that's how the Hebrews felt because it is obvious that the men leading the Hebrews didn't put God first at all. So the people thought to bring a symbol ahead of them something that is a picture of God and his throne as a way to win, but they did this without turning to God in their hearts. They lost the battle and the Hebrews lost 2 false prophets and one backslidden prophet, but gained a real man of God in Samuel.
All things work together for good right. Anyways this has been fun. I don't think there is anything I enjoy more than the mental exercise of a confrontational discussion about the Bible.


Thanks Ken, I appreciate the responses. It's been enjoyable for me too. Whatever points we may disagree on, we are on the same team. Iron sharpens iron, they say. This conversation has been stimulating and informative to say the least. Also, I think you're absolutely right about 1 Samuel and the situation with Hophni and Phinehas (and Eli). I won't argue those points at all, but I will add a couple things. Note that the consequence of their decision to falsely claim that God was before them was 30000 dead soldiers and 3 dead leaders. Note also that the resolution to the story is in 1 Samuel 7 when the people actually turn their hearts to God. They destroy their idols, confess their sin, pray for forgiveness, and offer sacrifices. Only after that do they win their battles. I think we're in the same position. There are a lot of idols in this country that need to be cast down. (Yes, we all know about the Left's idols, but let's not forget about the Right's.) There is a lot of sin to confess and prayer and sacrifices to be offered. I think if we Christians could start to do those things, then perhaps some battles could be won.

Chancey, I'm not sure if you were asking me specifically about christophanies or not, but see Ken's response. For me personally, it seems that the Bible itself is content to leave those appearances of God's presence ambiguous, so I am also content to leave them ambiguous. Maybe one could claim that some of those were a preincarnate Jesus, but the Bible itself doesn't commit, so I won't either. Suffice it to say that God reveals Himself or interacts with humans in more than one way and more than one form.

Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745223
12/16/22 12:44 PM
12/16/22 12:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline
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The warrior aspect of Christianity is all but dead and those who still have some semblance of it has lets it be corrupted with waking to fight things they THEY personally hate


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Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Wolfdog91] #7745239
12/16/22 01:13 PM
12/16/22 01:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
KY.usa
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This post has some really interesting view points . I think more along the lines of Wolfdog91 and can't believe I am saying this Mark. lol

Re: A Time to Fight [Re: jht] #7745248
12/16/22 01:21 PM
12/16/22 01:21 PM
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[quote=jht (Yes, we all know about the Left's idols, but let's not forget about the Right's.) [/quote]

100% jht

And hold on wolfdog! There is as much of a time to hate as there is a time to fight a time for war. There's a righteous anger and a righteous hatred and hating the things that God hates would be righteous hatred.
One of the many issues we have in today's world is that too many Bible believing Christians are afraid to hate anything allowing for all this filth to move in then making excuses for it because of their own weakness.
Psalm 139:17-24 KJV
How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! [18] If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. [19] Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. [20] For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. [21] Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? [22] I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. [23] Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: [24] And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


Matthew 7:6 KJV
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine....
-OFBA, NTA, FTA, TTFHA-
Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Wolfdog91] #7745249
12/16/22 01:22 PM
12/16/22 01:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
The warrior aspect of Christianity is all but dead and those who still have some semblance of it has lets it be corrupted with waking to fight things they THEY personally hate


I hate stupidity, I don’t care who is wearing it.


-Goofy
Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745263
12/16/22 01:34 PM
12/16/22 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
South Central Kansas
KsTrapper88 Offline
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Good verse Ken. I agree we don’t hold sin (and sinners, ourselves included) in its rightful despicable place. Just because we decide something isn’t that bad or isn’t hurting someone doesn’t change the fact that God who created everything is only one who has a say on what is or isn’t sin. Our church in the western world has accepted sin in our ranks and downplayed the hatred that God has for it. (Apparently the seeker friendly movement hasnt lead to much genuine spiritual growth)

I especially like the last part of that verse, David knows he is prone to sin himself and prone to minimizing it in comparison to his enemies sin. So he is asking God to search him and show him where he is sinning, that God would allow him to hate is own sin as much as he hates the sin in others. Because you are correct we should absolutely hate it.

Last edited by KsTrapper88; 12/16/22 01:38 PM.

Derek
Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Ken Smith] #7745272
12/16/22 01:43 PM
12/16/22 01:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith
Originally Posted by jht (Yes, we all know about the Left's idols, but let's not forget about the Right's.)


100% jht

And hold on wolfdog! There is as much of a time to hate as there is a time to fight a time for war. There's a righteous anger and a righteous hatred and hating the things that God hates would be righteous hatred.
One of the many issues we have in today's world is that too many Bible believing Christians are afraid to hate anything allowing for all this filth to move in then making excuses for it because of their own weakness.
Psalm 139:17-24 KJV
How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! [18
If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. [19] Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. [20] For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. [21] Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? [22] I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. [23] Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: [24] And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.



Dosent the book of Leviticus say somwhere it's not our plate to hate or judge..
Alot Christians now days are just horrible or weak people on a leash. Either they won't stand up because they think being a rabbit is some how morally just and the right thing to do as a Christian or when they do it's corrupted to the point it does no good.
Lack of personal reflection and humility just because your apart of something is a big problem.
But I digress


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Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745276
12/16/22 01:45 PM
12/16/22 01:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Eastern Shore of Maryland
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lol


-Goofy
Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745288
12/16/22 01:55 PM
12/16/22 01:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Oklahoma
Ken Smith Offline
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No wolfdog it doesn't. The book of Leviticus clearly commands all Christians to judge righteously.
It can be found in Leviticus 18 and 19. I'll share one of them here now.. coincidentally in chapter 19 it reiterates how you're supposed to judge things then in chapter 20 it teaches you how to judge something filthy like sodomy. The punishment is death.

Leviticus 19:15 KJV
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

And I know there is a huge movement of folks in modern times that say you should never judge anything however this same doctrine is clearly taught in the new testament not only by Jesus but all through it. Matthew 7 is my favorite place where Jesus preaches judgment but Matthew 23 is a clear command from him.

Here is the part in Matthew 7 that nearly all modern Christian denominations leave out.

Matthew 7:1-5 KJV
Judge not, that ye be not judged. [2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. [3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? [4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? [5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

If you have a red lettered Bible all of those scriptures are in red. See Jesus wanted every man to judge but righteously.

And this is reiterated in in 1 Corinthians 5 and 6. Pual scolding the Corinthians for not judging amongst themselves. Telling them that even the least among you could do the judgment. Because judgment is easy it's already written for us all to read. You just need the Spirit to understand.


Matthew 7:6 KJV
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine....
-OFBA, NTA, FTA, TTFHA-
Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745295
12/16/22 02:05 PM
12/16/22 02:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline
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How many people can legitimately righteously judge people though. ALOT of want I see people apparently claim to be righteous is just stuff they dont like plain and simple and they use God's word as an excuse.

And btw I though Christians , we' re not supposed to be going so hard on the old testament, though the new testament was truly our thing....


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Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745302
12/16/22 02:15 PM
12/16/22 02:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Marion Kansas
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What's Jesus say about the OT? To many are going by what they are taught instead of learning the Bible front to back and listening to what the Holy Spirit reveals to them. Easier and sometimes more comfortable to be spoon fed than to harvest your own..

Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Yes sir] #7745306
12/16/22 02:19 PM
12/16/22 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Yes sir
What's Jesus say about the OT? To many are going by what they are taught instead of learning the Bible front to back and listening to what the Holy Spirit reveals to them. Easier and sometimes more comfortable to be spoon fed than to harvest your own..

You know your not supposed to question your elders right ? Just listen to the preacher and do as your told .


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Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745311
12/16/22 02:23 PM
12/16/22 02:23 PM
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Marion Kansas
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I wonder where Isreal would be today if they didn't stand and fight their enemy. Hard for me not to believe God hasn't helped them defeat their enemies in the last fifty years when you study their history closely. They learned something from the Holocaust that they don't plan on repeating.

Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Wolfdog91] #7745314
12/16/22 02:27 PM
12/16/22 02:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Marion Kansas
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by Yes sir
What's Jesus say about the OT? To many are going by what they are taught instead of learning the Bible front to back and listening to what the Holy Spirit reveals to them. Easier and sometimes more comfortable to be spoon fed than to harvest your own..

You know your not supposed to question your elders right ? Just listen to the preacher and do as your told .

I understand but that is in direct contradiction to the word. When a Church quits follow the Word the become the dying church which happens regularly. Man's word starts taking over. Which is a big reason the Christian church in the US is weakening.

Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Wolfdog91] #7745323
12/16/22 02:41 PM
12/16/22 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
How many people can legitimately righteously judge people though. ALOT of want I see people apparently claim to be righteous is just stuff they dont like plain and simple and they use God's word as an excuse.

And btw I though Christians , we' re not supposed to be going so hard on the old testament, though the new testament was truly our thing....


“Stuff they don’t like”, you mean abortion and 10 genders or do you mean high taxes and government distributed charity?


-Goofy
Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745336
12/16/22 03:10 PM
12/16/22 03:10 PM
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John 8
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]

This fits with Mathew 7. The Pharisees and sadducees knew Jesus was merciful and wanted to catch him in the Law. The point here is not that Jesus thought the Pharisees were bad and she wasn’t, they’re all fallen, but the Pharisees lacked humility, they were willing to condemn the sin in her while ignoring their own. Doesn’t mean they should then ignore hers (Jesus says to her “go and sin no more”) but they should be both humble and just as they detest all sin, the beam in their own eyes included with the speck in hers. This is righteous judgement I think, not letting the sin in yourself or in others be swept aside but hating all sin. Humility is the key, it’s mentioned so many times in scripture New and Old Testament.


Derek
Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Chancey] #7745413
12/16/22 05:00 PM
12/16/22 05:00 PM
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The church is weak because the pews are full of tares. We've replaced the doctrine of regeneration with a repeat after me methodology of salvation found nowhere in the Bible. That's part of it.

I love the ideals on which the country was founded but there's not much to commend it going forward.

Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Wolfdog91] #7745463
12/16/22 06:14 PM
12/16/22 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
How many people can legitimately righteously judge people though. ALOT of want I see people apparently claim to be righteous is just stuff they dont like plain and simple and they use God's word as an excuse.

And btw I though Christians , we' re not supposed to be going so hard on the old testament, though the new testament was truly our thing....



You can judge Wlfdog91. Just ask for wisdom from God and read the scripture and do what it says in faith.

The old testament points to Jesus also. Did you ever read about King David? Jesus did a new thing in the New Testament but God gave us the whole bible.


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Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Wolfdog91] #7745489
12/16/22 06:38 PM
12/16/22 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by Yes sir
What's Jesus say about the OT? To many are going by what they are taught instead of learning the Bible front to back and listening to what the Holy Spirit reveals to them. Easier and sometimes more comfortable to be spoon fed than to harvest your own..

You know your not supposed to question your elders right ? Just listen to the preacher and do as your told .


Where do you see that in the scriptures?

Re: A Time to Fight [Re: Wolfdog91] #7745523
12/16/22 07:11 PM
12/16/22 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
How many people can legitimately righteously judge people though. ALOT of want I see people apparently claim to be righteous is just stuff they dont like plain and simple and they use God's word as an excuse.

And btw I though Christians , we' re not supposed to be going so hard on the old testament, though the new testament was truly our thing....

Are you talking judgement for discernment or condemnation? There is a big difference, with condemnation being above every man's pay scale. That's the Lion of Judah's job.

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