I often find some very thoughtful commentary on TMan about theology and these last comments follow that theme in fine fashion.
Well done brothers!

Blessings,
Mark

You're correct that all people look to gods and the writings about it are known as the Anthropological (Moral) Argument for the Existence of God.

The Apostle Paul wrote about it to the Romans in the 60's AD;
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Theologian Lewis Chafer wrote about it last century;
“There are moral features in man’s constitution which may be traced back to find their origin in God … A blind force … (which) could never produce a man with intellect, sensibility, will, conscience, and inherent belief in a Creator. That pagans, without having God’s written Law, value and practice the moral standards of God’s Law demonstrates an innate knowledge of God’s Law. Such knowledge did not evolve. Instead, God placed it within the conscience of humanity at Creation."

Another way to express the Moral Argument is by presenting two premises and drawing a conclusion.
Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist (i.e., laws require a law-giver).
Premise 2: Objective moral values do exist.
Conclusion: Since objective moral values exist, God exists.

It has been written about extensively by many that such an argument presents a conundrum for atheists. It has been said, "Atheists condemn rape and child abuse as immoral. That they deed these actions immoral requires that objective moral values exists. Since objective moral values exists, God exists."

The commentary on all this brings us back to Scripture which Christians believe to be inspired by God and without error in their original languages.
Paul writing was right of course. God is always right.

Blessings!
Mark

I wish this forum had less of this and more talk of trapping

We commentary about many things. Welcome to all of it.

There's a link button and you can click here or there depending on preference and I for one don't, and will never, subscribe to talk of eliminating debate. On any topic. This nation was founded by those who were learned and who were great debaters and we are the recipients of a wonderful nation that is founded and grounded in debate.

You want single issue kumbaya, give dictatorship a try. Others have when they got tired of the debating and went with the lie that one side fits all.

Welcome to the fray and did you know, trappers do more than trap?

Blessings,
Mark

Two posts in and you're already a critic?

It is way more complicated than rome just falling when constatine became emperor or christianity

Has more to do with things all the way back to ceasar civil
Wars political changes etc And a empire that hired out its defences to its own enemies.
Western rome is what collapsed. Eastern rome transformed. Look into charlamane etc.

Rome got so big and hired out so many auxilaries from former enemys and did not keep training the legions.
They were eventually just conquerd by the people they hired.

No disrespect but if one concludes that rome fell to christisnity but does not beleive in GOD. You are simply giveing GOD the credit to ending a empire The same GOD you dont beleive in.

My point was christianity did not save rome. I never said it caused anything. Praying to solve problems does not work was my whole point. When something turns out like you want it would have happened without the prayer. Rome's new official religion had been in place for more than a century before the germans sacked the place.

[quote=danny clifton]My point was christianity did not save rome. I never said it caused anything. Praying to solve problems does not work was my whole point. When something turns out like you want it would have happened without the prayer. Rome's new official religion had been in place for more than a century before the germans sacked the place.[/quote


Rome was not a nice place nor a nice empire im sure many prayed against it


I would rather have hope in GOD walking in this life and there is some reason to what i see as madness it gives me comfort but i think people know pain tragedy etc does not skip over christians nor does it make me better then you or worse it is a strong beleif and can be dam hard one to boot

But its faith and its a choice it makes christians no better than anyone else
We just beleive in a GOD that loves us and if we understand we sin and let him have it
"Washed in the blood". But things get bad in life
When stuff gets bad (i have had my share of tragedy) i remember job
To give me comfort

I cant point to anything and say this is the proof all humanity needs to believe
But i can choose to believe and that i do

Thats all i got mr danny aint much lol
Hope you are doing well

https://www.instyle.com/fashion/clothing/what-is-the-hemline-index-real.

The dress code on trading floors used to make me wonder. Best reasoning I came up with its so if one jumps out the window, then he is already suited up for his funeral, lol.

Hangin in there Trav. thanks

You guys gettin all this bi polar weather?

Warm one day and cold the next

It was 87 here the other day that night we had a snowstorm. And to think we had a weatherman run for governer
That dude didnt have a chance he been dissapointin people a ling time

You make it down this way for cats?

No trav. Having back trouble again. Have turned down several trap for pay jobs. Its healing again. I am walking a little every day again. Scared to drive either. Nerve in my left leg is pinched a bit. No strength in it yet. Thinking If the stars line up I may try my luck in WY next fall.

Did they try to get you into physical therapy? It got me up again. Lower back stuff stinks. When mine went it frlt likr someone shot me in the hips took a few weeks to walk far

Yes I am doing exorcises at home pt folks gave me

I’ll place the following in apposition to the original post:

All the rivers flow into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full.
To the place where the rivers flow,
There they flow again.
All things are wearisome;
No one can tell
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor is the ear filled with hearing.
What has been, it is what will be,
And what has been done, it is what will be done.
So there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one might say,
“See this, it is new”?
It has already existed for ages
Which were before us.
There is no remembrance of the earlier things,
And of the later things as well, which will occur,
There will be no remembrance of them
Among those who will come later.

I think I’d also apply these words to another thread that I saw recently that was discussing the “beginning” of “Republicans getting gunned down”. Readers of that thread would to well to remember that politically motivated violence is not restricted to one side only. Nor is it a beginning of any sort. We should consider Mr. Lincoln, Julius Caesar, or perhaps Pharaoh Teti to name just a small few. I mention this here because I think some of the ideas on both threads (and many others) are related.


I agree with this assessment, but I would go further and say that troubled people turn to idols--manufactured gods (We have a problem here because I [and others] think there is one true God and all others are idols, but Danny [and others] believe all gods, including mine, are idols. We're not going to solve that with internet arguments, so let's conveniently leave it alone for now. I think I can make my point despite our disagreements.) It seems to me that most people in America have made an idol of political figures, groups, and/or ideologies. Maybe the nation itself is the idol. Politics consumes our lives. It's all we can think about. It's all we can talk about. It's our frame of reference for how we treat other people and think about our life's events. It has our allegiance, and we follow blindly even if it means "gunning down" the "enemy". Either way, like Danny said, it won't work. This kind of religious fervor for political ideologies leads to dissolution and death. It's exactly this kind of thinking that true Christianity opposes. We can be helped along by another quote from Danny (thanks, Danny! Your posts are always helpful).


Danny said later that his point was that Christianity didn't save Rome. My initial response was, "Why would it have?" The point of view preserved in the Bible was a minority view that was counter-cultural and anti-imperial. The God of the Bible judges the nations. The corruption and injustice of Rome meant that God needed to deal with it and bring about its collapse (anybody read Revelation?). From a certain point of view, the political nonsense going on in the good old US of A right now may be something similar...

Looking at 321AD from another perspective, however, can shed a little light on the weak, diluted, and syncretic state of popular Western Christianity in our country. When Constantine made Christianity the state religion, what had been a minority, counter-cultural, anti-imperial movement suddenly became a majority view enmeshed in popular culture and in bed with the empire. 1700 years later,is it any wonder that we have trouble disentangling the Christian story from the whims of culture or from political rhetoric? Is it any wonder that so many secular and ungodly ideas are justified with "Christian" language? In my understanding of Biblical theology, God will bring His judgement against that too.

Like Mark said, we cannot educate or improve ourselves into salvation. We also, cannot force salvation upon the world through political agendas. We need to be rescued: from ourselves and from the unjust empires that we create. The only answer is the Kingdom of Heaven as it was, is, and will be brought about by the Messiah.

Jrt makes many very good points! Any people can look back at history and perhaps benefit because a people has an advantage ( and the perspective) of being alive after something happened. In the case of Scripture, the recorded Gospels were handed down through two thousand years (Christians believe miraculously) for subsequent generations to read, but how interesting it is that history is of lesser value to most of us today, even as our nation casts its primary gaze upon the wonderments of technology and what the next level of discoveries might be. This concept is deeply marinated and rooted in the idolatry of Progressivism, propelled more powerfully in recent centuries by the concept of humankind's progression towards perfection. Which at one time was thought to be of God, but now Western thinkers mostly exalt what humans can do in spite of God. Marx himself glorified the idolatry of what humans might be capable of if in fact these same humans were not beleaguered and "held back" by some god (he said of their own making). People prefer to be their own gods because in that we are free-er and more powerful and we can claim recognition and glory forever, Amen. It is the battle hymn of most Western cultural efforts in existence today. Every day the list expands the idolatry of humanism. We can now add gender identification and climate control to that idolatry. Things that for most of human history people said a god was on control of.... today with no god in the progressive soup mix..... humans decide. Male? Female? What do you (the person) think you are? Humanism has emerged with its kin progressivism to create the greatest idol of all: us. So the us'es squabble with the they's and the them's over whose pronouns are preferred, whose bathrooms to use, and who is saving the climate better. Yet, our God given conscious says to those not entirely ensnared by the idolatry of our times, "Hey, wait a minute. That's not right." But the humanists will not tolerate opposition and if you mention the God of the Bible in your commentary you will be branded as someone not sophisticated to keep up with the progressives. Obviously, evolution passed you by.

But there is still, as there always has been a remnant of people amidst all of it. Whatever the it is and whatever the it promises to deliver.
Ordinary people who are called, redeemed, and sealed entirely by the God of the Bible and no work of themselves. Nothing they did. All what God does.
It's not an accident and it's not by coincidence.
So we educate ourselves and improve ourselves to be and do many things, often great and beneficial things, but for some there is a reality of not just "how" they got here.... but "why" they got here.

Blessings,
Mark

The original sin and the imputation of sin are not the same thing are they?

Marten Luther said something to the effect that Christ righteousness imputed to Christians was a glorious exchange. Which is a truth that's a perfect medicine for those whose fear standing before God with sin stained clothes. Still a roaring 20's feel but the roar of a different Lion!