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Who wants to be a lure maker. #7860779
05/06/23 07:14 PM
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Bob Jameson Online content OP
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Anyone know what I am doing here?


[Linked Image]

Weighing the desired amount. It is not what is shown on the scale. My hands will smell very nice for several days after handling the beans and splitting them.

[Linked Image]

Adding material to a jar of solution. Notice the bleeding beginning in the bottom of the jar even before I have completed the loading process.

[Linked Image]

What it looks like after 1 shake. The color has begun to change to a gold caramel shade. It will continue to darken to a maple syrup color along the way.

[Linked Image]

Putting raw material back into cool storage for its next use.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860799
05/06/23 07:52 PM
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Iíll take a stab at it - tincturing vanilla?


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860809
05/06/23 08:09 PM
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Starting a new batch of Vanilla Extract 3 fold strength. Good assessment there Beezmador. A very high Octane flavor and ingredient when it comes to maturity in 8 to 12 months or so.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860824
05/06/23 08:35 PM
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Lucky guess Bob wink. So the short time the vanilla was in the solvent will take that many months to come to maturity? Is it that the odor will continue to change even though the vanilla is no longer in the solvent or the alcohol will burn off in that time period?


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860844
05/06/23 08:56 PM
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Full extraction takes a long time to thoroughly draw it out. Vanilla has many odor stages. The more it ages the better and stronger the extract becomes. The solvent agent will never burn off if the container is sealed well. I always make 3-fold strength extract with most of our ingredients. You can't buy stuff this good that is affordable. I make about 4500 ml at a time.

The solvent is very good and begins extracting within minutes. I split the beans lengthwise but keep them intact. The splitting exposes the caviar faster and will speed up part of the process since it doesn't have to bleed thru the exterior husk of the bean to get released.

I mark the containers volume level when I start the batch. This indicates the beginning start marker line. This will indicate how much evaporation if any has occurred over the extraction time frame. The volume level remains stable once you take the right measures to contain the material. It is a good practice to monitor that marker level weekly to look for evaporation issues.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860901
05/06/23 10:30 PM
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I got to ask Bob, how long do you leave the mother material in there? Is the stuff in the pic that your putting back in storage the stuff you just put in in the tinture? From the pics it looks like you just put it in there for part of the day then took it out. Or is it taken out of a mature batch?

Last edited by Yes sir; 05/06/23 10:31 PM.
Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860913
05/06/23 10:47 PM
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My other half is in a co op to get vanilla beans. I know some came from madagascar and 3 other countries. Some have been soaking for almost 2 years. She likes everclear to tincture. I used 80 proof vodka for some things. I have to really beg to get any of her vanilla LOL

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860915
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Madagascar Uganda papua newguinea are her top three.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7860937
05/06/23 11:35 PM
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The prepped beans will remain in the solvent for a long time. I will start more batches tomorrow. Hopefully these containers should last me for several years once they have run full term. What is in the bag are more prime bean pods I keep vacuum sealed that are left over. Nothing quite like the stuff we make ourselves in house. This odor will act like a Tonquin or Civet Musk once completed. Vanillin is a wonder odor and ingredient. New Guinea beans here.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861144
05/07/23 10:56 AM
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In addition to its very pleasing odor, "vanillin" is also a good fixative


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861206
05/07/23 01:13 PM
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Yes, papabear that was implied in my explanation. Some folks will figure that out on their own over time. Baby steps as they say.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861469
05/07/23 09:33 PM
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So if I understand correctly you leave the beans in the solvent for 8-12 months? When you say it acts like tonquin or civet musk it reminded me that when I first smelled tonquin I thought it had a kind of vanilla like odor. Still I had not thought of using vanilla in a canine lure like tonquin.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861572
05/08/23 07:14 AM
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Yes or longer and yes. Chemistry is interesting.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861693
05/08/23 10:57 AM
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C'mon boys and girls, Mr. Jameson has offered up a an opportunity to pick his brain and gain some very useful information here!


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: papabear!] #7861768
05/08/23 01:33 PM
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I assume the tonka bean tincturing takes the same amount of time?

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861776
05/08/23 01:52 PM
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I have some new Tonka beans coming from France in the next couple of weeks. Most natural occurring plant-based materials, beans and roots etc. require considerable time to reach full maturity. That is considering your solution and storage conditions are good, and you haven't cut any corners in your prep work, and you use a good percentage volume of the mother material to achieve your end fold goal odor.

Just think of these processes as a distiller does. A good brandy or whiskey requires years of aging in charred wooden oak barrels to get the best desired flavor from the liquor. To achieve a high-quality strength and flavor from Vanilla Beans, Civet Musk or Tonka Beans is much the same. You can surely get some benefit by using material sooner like in a few months but the difference between a few months and a year or more is quite remarkable.

Side by side comparisons would do justice to this statement.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861883
05/08/23 06:18 PM
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Mr. Jameson keeps mentioning one factor over and over that most lure makers/trappers just don't get -- the effect of time. I have ruined and perfected more lures based on time than anything else. Knowing the ingredients and the quantities of a formula is only a fraction of the information needed to produce a good product. Time (and temperature) will determine whether you have garbage or gold.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7861995
05/08/23 09:52 PM
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When properly tinctured / extracted over sufficient amount of time the materials Mr. Jameson mentioned above most generally mature into an end product that has a very pleasing perfumy type overtone to their odor. Now one must figure out why would these type odors be attractive to critters? And yes Mr Jameson chemistry is interesting.


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7862035
05/08/23 11:12 PM
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What happens if you don't figure out why an odor is attractive to a critter? I use Asafoetida in several formulations. I think it's some kind of tree sap from India or something. Works well but I have no idea why..
grin

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7862186
05/09/23 08:33 AM
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Mr Yes sir, How did you arrive at the decision to use Asafoetida in several of your formulations? I've read several posts authored by you on this forum where you advise that each individual ingredient must prove its attractiveness through thorough testing before you consider that ingredient for use in your formulations. Thats very sound advise!..... As an experienced lure / bait builder what thought process do you use to arrive at the choice of a particular ingredient (s) to test before you incorporate it into your formulations?

Over the past 40+ years I too have worked with a bunch of common and not so common ingredients. My research on Asafoetida revealed that its make up is mainly that of a methyl sulfide and has like chemical components found in skunk, weasel, mink musk's and varying amounts in canine urine. I personally don't use a lot of Asafoetida but will on occasion use a little bit to spike some urine or enhance a gland-based concoction.


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7862205
05/09/23 09:30 AM
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Seth, formulating is chemistry in a sense. It is very interesting and can give you some surprising revelations in terms of outcomes and preconceived predictions. Be cautious as to your single ingredient evaluations. Some elements may not seem to fair well in a singular exposure situation. However, pair or blend that element with another material or base and things change.

Our human rationality isn't always spot on. Listen to the animals. They will speak to you with their behavior. You just need to be a good interpreter.

Pleasing, Pleasurable odors and objects are enjoyable and appreciated by all. They are powerful triggers in human physiology and in the animal kingdom.

When it comes down to what is attractive to an individual or an animal it may give surprising and at times unexplainable and unpredictable results. I have learned this over the years of my formulating and testing experience. Some of the more fragrant materials can be surprisingly attractive to wildlife of all species in the mammalian family.

It is determining the best volume amount to be used into a formula that you are developing. Subtle, suggestive supplemental key odors are all that is needed in a predator lure I have found. Those are the very subtle trigger odors that are blended and sort of piggyback ride along with the primary created dominate odor.

Some of us refer to these subtle trace odors as undertones. They can play a very important role in the final odor and the overall attraction that your lure has to a particular specie. Then you come to realize over time that your product has a tremendous crossover effect with its appeal to other species. Then you are on to something very special.

That is the remarkable effect of chemistry. On the other hand, basic things such as a single odor material can trigger interest as well. It's important to understand all these factors and their role on the trapline. They all play a role in the big picture.

These odors stimulate an animal's interest and creates behavioral reactions that cause them to investigate further to satisfy their curiosity. BINGO

You see a pretty gal and as you get closer you realize that she smells nice also. Now you have triggers that are setting some things in motion in your mind and possibly in your behavior.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: papabear!] #7862263
05/09/23 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by papabear!
Mr Yes sir, How did you arrive at the decision to use Asafoetida in several of your formulations? I've read several posts authored by you on this forum where you advise that each individual ingredient must prove its attractiveness through thorough testing before you consider that ingredient for use in your formulations. Thats very sound advise!..... As an experienced lure / bait builder what thought process do you use to arrive at the choice of a particular ingredient (s) to test before you incorporate it into your formulations?

Over the past 40+ years I too have worked with a bunch of common and not so common ingredients. My research on Asafoetida revealed that its make up is mainly that of a methyl sulfide and has like chemical components found in skunk, weasel, mink musk's and varying amounts in canine urine. I personally don't use a lot of Asafoetida but will on occasion use a little bit to spike some urine or enhance a gland-based concoction.

Good question and I believe it's very worthwhile to take in ones experience and knowledge when getting advise on lure making.
My process for testing ingredients and formulations goes like this. If it's an ingredient that is usually natural or something I believe will work as a base or primary odor I'll first test it by itself then move towards testing it beside other bases or ingredients of known attraction to Guage it's attractiveness. At this point if I determine it has potential I'll start testing it in formulation, always comparative testing using it beside the formulation without it and/ or with a different amount of test material to determine if it and/or what amount gets best desired reaction. Some ingredients particularly ingredients more on the exotic side like say cilantro oil or Rhodium oil that I feel are going to work as a secondary odor I'll start out testing in a known simple formulation that is good but one I know has room for improvement. The more potential I see in a product the farther I'll test to zero in on the appropriate amount for best reaction. That's the 20,000 feet overview of how I test individual ingredients.

Once I develop a final formulation through step by step testing that I feel gets the desired reaction I'll start trapping with it for a year or two to verify my results. I've also done a lot of testing of my formulations against commercial formulations that knowledgeable and experienced trappers have recommended as great formulations to see how mine stack up. Final test is to sent formulation to some of the best and most knowledgeable trappers I can find in different parts of the country for them to test. I think I've sent products to at least 10 different states. Government trappers, Adc, trappers, big number fur trappers, skilled part time trappers, hall of fame trappers, areas with good numbers, areas with very low populations cold regions and warm regions. I buy one or two commercial lures a year that are recommended to me as favorite formulations by knowledgeable trappers to test each so that I can gain the most knowledge I can as to what a good reaction is. I do a lot of comparative testing.

I've spent thousands of dollars, made thousands of test sets spent hundreds of hours and spent hundreds of $ to send thousands of dollars of product out to others for testing.

I've found and used ingredients that I've never heard of anyone else using in predator formulations and everything I make is my own formulation developed one step at a time and never copied from someone else.

I've even tested the effects of glycerin and different preservatives as to the attractiveness of an overall formulation.

When I check all those boxes off then I send it to a lab for chemical analysis. Just kidding, I just go by what the coyotes tell me.

Crude simple process but I'm just a simple cowboy and that's what works for me and once in awhile for the coyotes. What I lack in chemistry knowledge I try to make up for with work by testing.

I'll also listen for every tidbit of information that I can find especially from people that I feel are very knowledgeable and then test it. Also am constantly thinking and using my imagination to find new topshelf ingredients or ingredient combinations and then test them. Also spent a lot of time and money testing same ingredients from different sources.

What I know about WHY an ingredient is attractive to a coyote I can write on a cigarette paper.

Only thing I care about at the end of all this is the results I see from the coyotes and what other are seeing from the coyotes.

Last edited by Yes sir; 05/09/23 03:59 PM.
Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7862370
05/09/23 03:18 PM
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As far as asafoetida I normally don't give out this much detail because I believe it greatly benefits anyone who wants to become a good lure maker to come to their own findings but I use 2 ozs per gallon of the strongest tinture I can make from what a believe is high quality mother material in one of my favorite baits. In one louder/ call lure I use a much higher amount. Is this the best application of it or the perfect amount, will this work in every bait or lure? I have not the slightest idea.
I do believe I remember hearing one commercial lure maker state asafoetida creates a chemical reaction in K9s like drugs in humans. If my memory serves me correctly any way. I don't have any idea if it's true or not and if I did it I don't know if it would change the results I see when testing it on coyotes.

Last edited by Yes sir; 05/09/23 04:01 PM.
Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7862390
05/09/23 04:02 PM
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Mr Jameson & Mr Yes Sir. Thank you kindly for your responses. Different ways to do different things, there's no wrong way until it don't work. When I was a kid and started trapping I didn't have money to buy baits and scents/lure so I tried everything I could think of. I had no mentor and only had one tired out old copy of fur-fish-game magazine to use as a reference and a couple old traps. I remember catching my first red fox on a mixture of vanilla extract and coffee grounds that I filched from my mothers spice cupboard when I was 15 in a set I made for raccoon. My first coyote was caught in a set using grape jelly. Back then peanut butter and cheap syrup or molasses and cow corn was my go to attractants for coons.....When I got some money I decided I was going to buy a bottle of professional made trapping scent. I sent $1.25 and when it arrived in the mail I figured I was going to need a truck to haul all the fur I was about to catch to the fur buyer. Imagine my disappointment when the professional made lure I bought didn't bring the critters running in from the next county over as it promised. It didn't even work as good as the homemade stuff I was already using.......Over the years I try not to think of the money Ive spent on lures and ingredients Ive bought that weren't potent or just downright worthless......It was a bottle of Johnny Thorpes "Adirondack All Call" that eventually renewed my faith in boughten animal scents, but by then I was well on my way to mixing my own crude formulas that I had faith in.....Since those days I have learned a lot, spent many many hours in the bush testing and re-testing and researching and working with a lot of common and not so common ingredients in pursuit of coming up with a formula for the ultimate critter specific attractants. My lure building style can be compared to building a deluxe hamburger sandwich.. You start with a base a medium rare cooked sirloin burger placed on a bun bottom, a slice or two of cheese.... a slice of tomato and or onion, a little lettuce......a dallop of horseradish sauce and a bun top.. Everything is compatible and the complimenting flavors or odors of the items added enhance and add flavor or odor value to the base. And of coarse a cold beer is the coup degras. It is my belief and opinion that most critters minds for the most part work along those lines no matter what type of lure or bait your intending to build ..But in the end its the animals that will show you what your doing right or that your missing something.

At this point I am more than happy with the several formulas that I have come up with and use faithfully every year. A couple years ago I decided to cut back some and go back to the basics. I gave away a whole pickup truck load (front to back filled to the cap) of baits, base and lure compounds, oils, tinctures, extracts lures, glands and a big tote of ingredients. to a young man aspiring to become a lure maker and dealer......I still have a couple of my old favorites and some ingredients and tinctures that I got from Thorpe ,Pete Rickard, and Walter Arnold. After a lot of years I can honestly say that there is no way a man can learn everything there is to learn about lure making in one lifetime....All those years and I realize I've barely scratched the surface. This hobby can be a ton of fun mixed with a pile of frustration at times . Always a learning adventure and seldom a source of instant gratification.


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7862530
05/09/23 08:23 PM
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Yes sir, what kind of reactions were government trappers seeking from your concoctions? More time spent at set or bite and pull response?

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: silkyplainscoyot] #7862544
05/09/23 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by silkyplainscoyot
Yes sir, what kind of reactions were government trappers seeking from your concoctions? More time spent at set or bite and pull response?

Two thumbs up as a trapping bait. The good results prompted a go on getters. Got a few pulls I believe but not good enough to be a getter dope. Will say I have never tested it as a bite and pull formulation and never designed it with that in mine but the trying of it has kind of intrigued me.... I believe there was a good amount of intrest at the getters but just not the right sauce to get them to bite and pull consistently I believe was the report. Last I heard they hadn't got around to testing everything I sent.

Can't speak for them as to what kind of reaction the were wanting exactly. I know the bait was tried with traps first then on some getters.

Last edited by Yes sir; 05/09/23 08:46 PM.
Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Yes sir] #7862684
05/09/23 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Yes sir
Originally Posted by silkyplainscoyot
Yes sir, what kind of reactions were government trappers seeking from your concoctions? More time spent at set or bite and pull response?

Two thumbs up as a trapping bait. The good results prompted a go on getters. Got a few pulls I believe but not good enough to be a getter dope. Will say I have never tested it as a bite and pull formulation and never designed it with that in mine but the trying of it has kind of intrigued me.... I believe there was a good amount of intrest at the getters but just not the right sauce to get them to bite and pull consistently I believe was the report. Last I heard they hadn't got around to testing everything I sent.

Can't speak for them as to what kind of reaction the were wanting exactly. I know the bait was tried with traps first then on some getters.



Thanks for the explanation. I know it becomes a whole different ballgame when trying to get a consistent bite and pull response.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7866577
05/16/23 02:11 PM
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New batch of Tonka Bean Extract. A gallon should last me for a little while. A few days of simmering will jump start it nicely.


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Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7866606
05/16/23 03:15 PM
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Very nice Bob!
I wonder what the finished product is going too smell like, musky?
Looks like you cracked the beans before tincturing.
I have really enjoyed this thread. A bunch of good information has been shared by many people.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7866645
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Yes, Mark I snap the beans 2-3 X depending on the bean size. Then crush them fairly well. If they are kept whole, they won't develop their full potential dominate odor. They will smell nice but near as strong as if prepped well. Maximum extraction potential is what I am after. My inventory is low so this should give me a few years of product.

They are like giant Almonds in appearance. They have a very fragrant blend of sweet caramel and vanilla like odor. It will get much stronger with age. Both jars are working well just after a few days. Animals really like this odor and as a shadow trace odor they complement many formulas. Tonka Bean extract will drive, fix and strengthen other odors.

It gives a nice touch to fresh castor. It is very effective as a dominate odor for all species I have found over the years. Getting good strong octane material of formulation grade is nearly impossible. That is why you need to control and try to develop many of your own basic need ingredients as much as possible.

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7866745
05/16/23 09:37 PM
05/16/23 09:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 153
NY
papabear! Offline
trapper
papabear!  Offline
trapper

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 153
NY
Nice stuff to work with, the odor kind of floats and lingers....A perfumer friend of mine calls it "Rock & Roll Vanilla"


My hero's have always been trappers
Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7867275
05/17/23 11:22 PM
05/17/23 11:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,212
MN
Y
yukonal Offline
trapper
yukonal  Offline
trapper
Y

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,212
MN
Great reading men, thank you!

Re: Who wants to be a lure maker. [Re: Bob Jameson] #7886433
06/17/23 10:48 AM
06/17/23 10:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2023
Posts: 241
Scary Place, PA
TrapCoonsForFur Offline
trapper
TrapCoonsForFur  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jun 2023
Posts: 241
Scary Place, PA
Originally Posted by Bob Jameson
Anyone know what I am doing here?

[Linked Image]

Weighing the desired amount. It is not what is shown on the scale. My hands will smell very nice for several days after handling the beans and splitting them.

[Linked Image]

Adding material to a jar of solution. Notice the bleeding beginning in the bottom of the jar even before I have completed the loading process.

[Linked Image]

What it looks like after 1 shake. The color has begun to change to a gold caramel shade. It will continue to darken to a maple syrup color along the way.

[Linked Image]

Putting raw material back into cool storage for its next use.


making vannila extract

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