so Neanderthal were fallen angels? what about denisovans? the dna found in Neanderthal that suggests another hominid ancester we have not found fossils of, were they cherebim or something?

I enjoy Bible study as I know you do brother Chauncey and I did a word study as part of my course on Old Testament studies and chapter 6 was a great place to dive in deep.
What I found and as I chatted about all this over "several" coffee breaks with my professor, Dr. David Klinger, who in his earlier days was a U of Houston collegiate stand out and went on to start as QB for the Bengals and Raiders in the NFL and is now one of this countries renowned OT scholars! (Super cool guy too who still lives in Brenham)... anyway, a word study of Genesis 6 plopped us on a reading that there are no angels in Genesis 6, but rather seeds of the serpent. They are the examples of "man's sight" = meaning they "saw", what they deemed "good". and "took"..... just as is laid out in two other parts of Scripture, Gen 3:6 and 2 Sam 11.

And then it goes on in Genesis 6:3 to read of God's patience for repentance now being 120 years.
And then to the Nephilim, which in Hebrew means "fallen ones" being on the earth in those days (the flood).
And then the text referencing the mighty men but the Hebrew doesn't mean "big" but rather they are famous.

Anyway, Bible study is good stuff and we allow room for each other's views, especially when it comes to interpretation of the text. I start a Bible study this coming Sunday titled "The Church." Oh boy. The saints will hopefully get much out of this 8 week dive into the Ecclesia but I'm sure I'll get some rich questioning

Blessings!
Mark

Chancey, I did not say Gen 6 was a theory. I was saying the idea that the Giant DNA with homo sapiens may be Neanderthal And I did not state that as fact. The THEORY is that the Neanderthal may be a result of the sons of God and the daughter's of men. Not a fact.

An even bigger possibility is all this DNA talk is just lies to discredit Christianity

These are interesting questions Dany.
And of course I'm not stating these ideas as fact ,only theory. I, like many Christians believe in a young earth. Even though I don't understand everything or know all. Much of what we believe is though evidence of things not seen. This is faith. When we see afield of fastlized oister shells at 6000 ft above see level we know they more than likely came from on ocean. This is evidence of things not seen. Then were have a flood story that is not only in the bible, but world wide in numerous cultures. Then there is Darwins theory of evolution. And modern science supports both through the eyes of the beholder. One thing I know for sure is I treasure the smell of Sagebrush when im scouting in the early fall and nibbling on ripe Rusions olives after they've sweetened in early winter . That is a fact and not a theary.

I respect your interpretation Mark, but I don't think it is correct.

Mainly, because it is not what the text says; particularly the Septuagint. Bene Elohim always refers to to angels everywhere it is used in the Bible. It literally means the sons of Elohim.

I think getting Gen 6 correct is critical for interpreting the rest of the Bible. It makes everything in the OT make more sense in that light. It explains Numbers 13 and also Jude as well.

-Giant Sage, I think the fallen angels had intercourse with human women; resulting in a hybrid offspring; which became giants. Same kind of situation happens today when species cross, often the offspring are much larger than both the sire and the dam.

Dany I bealeave what your saying has clout, DNA has the potential for many misuses.

Chancy , remember the new testament fulfilled the old. The old testament is pointing to Jesus who is the outher and fulfillment of of all he created. And of course the inspired word. 1st John 3:1 Behold what manner of the father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not. John.1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. So what happens when those that believe on his name be come yoked with non believers. What are the results. Food for thought.

Thanks, I think I would agree with your opinion. The variation was probably infraspecific, not warranting new species names, but I'm a layman here, an armchair expert. Have you read Dan Flores's "Wild New World"? I'm only about halfway through now, but one of the early chapters talks about this a little. I found it interesting.

Chancey and Mark, I'm happy to offer two (or twenty) more cents and think about Genesis 6 a little. Though, I don't want to completely derail beaverpeeler's thread. Maybe if this requires a lot more discussion, we should start a separate thread? Then again, maybe not. I think of Genesis 6 and this hominid interbreeding discussion as fairly separate ideas, but it's obvious that for many others, they are on the same mental shelf. Anyway...

I agree with Mark that Gen 6 is pretty clearly a rebellion or fall narrative. As Mark said, the important see-good-take keywords clue us in to that. I also agree with Chancey that "sons of God" clearly refers to heavenly beings in the Bible. The term "angel" is being used a little too broadly in my opinion, since it specifically means "messenger" - in Hebrew (malakh) and in Greek (angelos). There are many heavenly beings that are not angels - and some that are. Gen 6 does not mention angels, but it is about heavenly beings, i.e. "bene elohim" rather than "malakhim". It's important to remember (or realize, if you haven't yet) that in Genesis 1, God creates the Heavenly realm and the Earthly realm, and then He appoints beings to rule in each of those realms, with Yahweh being the supreme ruler over all. The spiritual beings rule the heavens (the lights in the sky on day 4 in Gen 1), and the humans are to rule on the dry land (day 6). In Genesis 3, the human rulers join forces with a heavenly ruler (the Serpent) in an attempt to be "like gods", forsaking their calling to rule on earth and be like a heavenly ruler. In Genesis 6, heavenly rulers join with earthly rulers, forsaking their calling to rule in the heavens in order to gain renown on earth. The earthly rebellion and the heavenly rebellion mirror/match each other, and the results for those living on earth are the same. The Genesis 3 rebellion leads to bloodshed - the murder of Abel then the brutality of Lamech in the city of Cain. In Genesis 6, the demigod offspring of the sons of God and daughters of men are the "mighty warriors of old" (gibborim), "Nephilim" (fallen ones - i.e. fallen in battle), and "men of renown" (literally "men of the name" - heroes remembered for their prowess in battle). In both chapter 3 and chapter 6, rebellions (forsaking God-given purpose, attempted boundary-crossing) have led to the praise and glorification of bloodshed (see the song of Lamech and the "mighty renowned warriors). This, of course, is what leads up to the flood. God created the world as a good and beautiful place where His appointed rulers would "be fruitful and multiply" - spread blessing and life, but they have instead multiplied death, curse, and bloodshed. God sees the situation and is grieved, saying, "the end of all flesh has come before me", meaning "they are all going to kill each other". That's where the flood comes in. Interestingly, the cycle just starts over after the flood, and "the name" is an important keyword that helps the reader interpret the narratives. A story for a different day I suppose...

That's how I see the narrative itself working. If we want to talk about application, let's imagine how people living in the ancient near-East may have heard it. The culture placed the old heroes and warrior-kings in high esteem as the founders and protectors of their civilizations. In fact, many kings were said to be demigods, ruling with divine authority, and, boots-on-the-ground, they obtained their power through bloodshed - conquering their enemies. The stories of their gods were the same. The particular god they worshipped would have come to power via defeating other gods or some personified chaos beings through violence. However, the God of the Hebrews tamed the chaos with a word, making a world designed for blessing and peace without bloodshed. The thing that other civilizations praised, Yahweh sees as a sad and miserable corruption of the good purposes of the world. The use of the God-given power that humans have to dominate and destroy other humans to meet their own needs and desires has been the driving force of history, and it is precisely what the Biblical world view says is wrong with the world. It's what Jesus came to fix. Thinking about today...Who are our heroes? How were our modern civilizations founded? How do we protect ourselves and our tribes from others who are in the way? Whom do we praise? Has anything really changed?

This shows the difference between a average European male and a African Pygmy male. If these two are the same species it seems reasonable that Neanderthals were the same as well. It seems like Neanderthals were more similar to modern Europeans than Pygmys are to this day.

Wow, well said.

Ever hear of a black Dutch man?
My wife is Dutch and related to everyone in the small town were we live.
I remember my oldest was going to date a girl, then he found out they were related.

Now thats keeping it Dutch!

That little guy sure doesn't look very happy.

Stinky armpit look.

jrt reminds us of a very important point (solid post!) that the Bible isn't a science book. And it's not a "How to" book either.

I spent some time diving deeper into the book of Genesis where I see the Hebrew word râqîya written by Moses 9x. And like jrt, I would agree that the Hebrew meaning which is a "firmament" of a visible arch in the sky. I looked in the NET Bible and found a commentary that is easy to envision;

"SKY In the ancient world, the sky was seen as a dome-like barrier between heaven and earth. It is first referenced in Gen 1:6–9, where God creates an “expanse” as he separates creation into realms. The sky was thought to contain rain, snow, clouds, birds, and so on."

I think God's question to Job (Job 38:18) is a good one for all of us to reflect on when we become a "know it all."

“Have you understood the expanse of the earth?
Tell Me (God), if you know all this."

We know only what God reveals to us so in that we thank Him for His revelation of Creation.
I enjoy being outdoors at so many levels.... I'm thankful there is an "outdoors."
I didn't create it.
I just get to enjoy it.
Praise God.

Blessings!
Mark

LOL!

I dont think there are to many pygmies left in the congo. The other tribes have been on an extermination quest for awhile now

Thanks for the Dan Flores tip jht, it looks like the type of reading I like...I'll have to find a copy.