People (churches) that insist that "wine" is just grape juice are a perfect example of interpreting scripture in order to fit an agenda; a dangerous path to take.
An easy explanation as to why it couldn't have been grape juice; Passover is celebrated during the spring. Grape harvest is late summer. If they didn't ferment the juice, how did they preserve it as grape juice until spring? Bottling, frozen concentrate? I don't think so. If it hadn't been fermented it would have spoiled.
It's disappointing to see folks twist scripture to either fit their agenda, or to help God out with some things. When kids are taught things that they later figure out are not correct, it can make them doubt everything.

The gentlemen was wise! Thank you for this reminder that sometimes it's ok to say... "I'm not sure or I don't know."
I would whole heartedly agree.

Blessings,
Mark

The Book of Enoch is wonderful credibility but we of course need to remember it's not canonical and so we wouldn't consider it Inspired or Inerrant in its writings.
We can arrive at a couple of different junctions with Genesis 6 and people have for some time for sure.
The Early Church Fathers were most certainly "angelic" in their view of "sons of God" in this 6;2 passage at least until the time of Augustine and such.

But the passages of Peter and Jude, I agree, make it tougher to land on a non-angelic stance being they were seeds of Satan. Or the Augustinian stance.
When two or more passages point a certain way, I pay attention! As we should. Let Scripture explain and clarify Scripture.

Peter wrote in 2 Peter 2:4-5;
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

And Jude wrote in Jude 6-7; 6
"And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an dexample in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

And then as we get into the post flood narrative where Nephilim are said to still exist (Gen 6:4), it does make sense that a Divine instruction to wipe out every man, woman, and child in the land off Canaan would fit.

So they could certainly be angels.

Angelogy (the study of Angels) and Anthropology (the study of humans) isn't core Doctrine or Dogma of our faith but it's great reading for sure.
I know the seeds of the Serpent loss. In the end.

Blessings,
Mark

Thanks grumley701!

Blessings,
Mark

Both would agree that Jesus is Risen!

That's dogma in both the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches.

Blessings,
Mark

You see how inexact our heritage language is? I meant "quite often."

Blessings!
Mark

Great post brother Chancey! And you've got me thinking, thinking, thinking. And diving deeper into Scripture, Church Father's writings and all sorts of stuff. Thank you!
My sermon title for tomorrow, Mother's Day of course, is "Do you have an Eternal Perspective?"
I'll use a south Texas fish point to begin with imagery of "the old." Some people think about old. Some people enjoy the history of the old. Some do not.
Same with the future. Some think about it. Some do not.
But we're crafted in the Image of God as eternal beings and so while we live in the here and now.... Do we have an eternal perspective?

Thank you for the fine posts sir!
Well played. You got me thinking.
I like it!

Blessings,
Mark

I think it's more for not wanting to possibly place a stumbling block in front of your brothers and sisters. You don't know if your brother or sister has a tendency towards alcoholism and I for one don't want to be the one to introduce him/her to the intoxicant that would destroy them. I believe the intentions are good, no secret agenda involved. From my reading of scripture drunkenness is the sin, not the glass of wine itself.

Sounds like a bunch of Muslims. lol

So 3000 Ells -? 11feet plus?

There are Scripture that only God knows the real answer to.

For example who are the 7 thunders in Revelation that John was told don't write down?
In the book of chronicles a man cut up his concubine and sent the pieces to the tribe of Israel.

Wasn’t that after she was killed by a group of men that wanted to violate him?

Gus If you got to Joshua when they circled Jericho.
The first 6 days the trumpets sounded but the peaple where to be silent. In revelation after the 6th trumpet ( and I saw another angel come down from heaven) this is the angel that you speak of with the voice of 7 thunders. The angel said ( do not write what the 7 thunders have sead . Paralleling the 1st 6 days at Jericho. Do not shout.
On the 7th day when Jericho was circled they let out a shout and the walls came down.
In revelation after the 7th trumpet sounded , Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our lord ,and of his christ; and he shall rein for ever and ever. Depending on your eschatology beliefs. This may or may not make sense.
I believe the 7th trumpet of Revelation was the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the wall most definitely came down.
Remember the litte book . ( it shall be bitter in thy belly) the world as John knew it was about to come crashing down. ( sweet in thy mouth) the Lord shall reign for ever and ever.

Gus If you got to Joshua when they circled Jericho.
The first 6 days the trumpets sounded but the peaple where to be silent. In revelation after the 6th trumpet ( and I saw another angel come down from heaven) this is the angel that you speak of with the voice of 7 thunders. The angel said ( do not write what the 7 thunders have sead . Paralleling the 1st 6 days at Jericho. Do not shout.
On the 7th day when Jericho was circled they let out a shout and the walls came down.
In revelation after the 7th trumpet sounded , Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our lord ,and of his christ; and he shall rein for ever and ever. Depending on your eschatology beliefs. This may or may not make sense.
I believe the 7th trumpet of Revelation was the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the wall most definitely came down.
Remember the litte book . ( it shall be bitter in thy belly) the world as John knew it was about to come crashing down. ( sweet in thy mouth) the Lord shall reign for ever and ever.

Good discussion. Mark always appreciate your posts as well. Job, the oldest book in the Bible, is probably one of my favorites.

According to the late Chuck Missler, Angels have some very interesting characteristics......

Angels always appear in human form (Sodom and Gomorrah; Resurrection;
Ascension). Angels spoke, took men by hand, ate meals, and were capable of direct physical combat (Passover in Egypt and the slaughter of 185,000 Syrians). They don’t
marry (in heaven).

They are personal beings and have emotions. They have will and can make choices, but are also spiritual beings and not limited to material boundaries. They are not allowed to be worshipped. They do not die, can lead people by the hand, and indulge in conflict. They have attributes greater than man, but less than God.

They are organized and ranked. There are Archangels such as Michael which is a military leader and Messianic messengers such as Gabriel. There are chief princess and Cherubim which guard the Tree of Life. One of the Cherubs was in charge of all the rest of them - Lucifer which at one time was the Cherub that 'covereth' and probably lead worship in Heaven until he went against God and conspired with other Angels that were cast down.

These conversations bring up so many interesting things to discuss.

Hebrews 13:2 speaks of interactions between angels and men. Do those interactions still go on today?

Entertain angels unawares.

Yes Foxpaw, seems we can interact with angels and be unaware of it.

330-trapper- I'm not sure of the true measurements of an ell. I've seen several lengths mentioned of anywhere from 17-20." Which gives some evidence that the Book of Enoch may in fact not be Inerrant as Mark pointed out. While I certainly think giants roamed the earth back in the day, it is hard for me to imagine one being that tall, but that is what it says.

I know it is written that King Og (a descendant of the Raphaim) had a bed that was roughly 14 feet long by 6 feet wide.

Wondering if there could still be traffic on Jacobs' ladder? Was that just a dream or was it a spirit thing that allowed him to see things not normally seen by humans.

In the last century the Guinness record for hight was 8' 11" the man died in 1940 less than 100 years ago.
Maybe The odds are not so slim of 10'or maybe 12' tall in the past 4000 years?