Maybe another time we'll get into a thread about angels. My Angels and Demons (Angelology) course at DTS was one of my favorites with a wonderful prof by the name of Scott Horrell as our instructor. Dr. Horrell pastored for decades in Brazil and came face to face with a woman possessed on only one occasion. But he will never forget it and they train us in this course to battle the demoniacs. Scott said his training at seminary did not prepare him for that fateful day, which started by chance and ended some 7 hours later with the demon banished "finally." Dr. Horrell said this petite woman was tossing a squad (8 men) of big brawny ex-USA military guys who attended pastor Horrell's church around like puppets. The group started easy on a "woman" at first, but then it got heated, the guys got serious and all 8 of the men could hardly contain this 95 lb gal.

Dr. Horrell said he'd never seen anything like it and the church who was witnessing this scene (the woman burst into church service from a bus stop outside the church and began to accost the congregation) were curious at first and then almost everyone fled in terror.

Blessings,
Mark

Saddest and most tragic part in all the Bible is found in Ezekiel 28: 11-15.

"Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, "Thus says the Lord God:

"You were the seal of perfection.
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering;
The sardius, topaz, and diamond.
Beryl, onyx, and jasper.
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Until iniquity was found in you.

Great narrative scene isn't it Chancey!
And that same Hebrew word is used again twice in verses 17& 18; Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew has this word ôlâh, as meaning (moral) evil, iniquity, perverseness, unjust, unrighteousness and wickedness.

Sure paints the picture with a clear brush!

“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

Blessings,
Mark

Hope you all had a great Mother's Day; and that your sermon went well this morning Mark!

Yes, Mark, it paints a real clear picture. I think this may be why God despises pride and arrogance so much; as it was these two attributes that got to Lucifer and caused the fall.
Isaiah 14 has some good stuff to add about the fall of Lucifer as well. Kind of interesting Isaiah 14 and Ezekial 28 both have a lot to say about Lucifer.

Since we are on this interesting topic and it is Mother's Day, I want to share something that has chewed at me for a long time. It's not that big of a deal and is not a game changer in my faith, but it is something that kind of gnaws on the back of my mind when I try to study the Bible.

The whole "two seeds" issue.....

In the NT, 1 Timothy 2:14 pretty much throws Eve under the bus, and blames the fall from Eden strictly on Eve and not Adam. Yet in Genesis 3:6, Adam was with Eve when it happened. They both were seduced. It wasn't as if Eve was off on her own, her husband was with her.

I think the Hebrew word for serpent is the Nachash which as an adjective means the shining one. The root word of Lucifer has to deal with shiny and light as well.

Could it be possible, that the two seeds the Bible talks about are a result from the seduction of Eve by Satan (Cain) and the other by Adam (Seth)? If so, sure makes a lot of other things seem to make more sense.

Chancey,
Remember the sower of the seed. When the seed is cast to stony ground it sprouts up quickly then in the drought it withers and dies. And when it's cast among thorns and thistles it becomes choked and dies. Cane was a tiller of the ground. The ground was cursed for Adam's sake this was Adam's punishment for taking the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Maybe cane represented the result of sin by being a tiller of the ground and offering the fruit there of. Able was a keeper of sheep and his offering was the firtslings of his flock and the fat therof. Maybe he represented the good . Remember Gen 3 :21 the Lord God made coats of skins and clothed them. A good representation of the early christions that where martered along with the sacrifice of our Lord.
Then there was Seth . Gen4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord. Sons of God. Representing Christians.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye can not serve God and mammon.

Good post Giant Sage.

From what I understand, prior to the fall via the Genesis 3 curse. Eden was perfection. God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. There were also animals there and it seems according to some apocrypha texts that Adam could even communicate with the animals in the garden. At that time, no beings in the garden had sinned; so IMO one could deem them as all innocent.

When both Adam and Eve sinned, the very first thing that YHVH (God) did was cover them with animal skins. This would have had to been the first killing that ever took place in the history of mankind, and it would have had to have rattled Adam and Eve; particularly if they knew all the living things in the garden. I think God was teaching them a very important lesson. That lesson is that only by the shedding of innocent blood, only then would they be covered for their sins. If that is not an illusion to Jesus Christ, then I don't know what is. Thank you God for your son Jesus Christ; which through His blood and only His blood, we today are covered. Amen.

Chancey,
I've never read any of the apocrypha , but I would agree with you're description of Genesis concerning the garden,
I guess I never considered Adam talking with the animals. But like I said I never have read the apocrypha.
Eve certainly talked with the serpent. Then again Bailoms donkey talked. Maybe these animals had a voice by the influence of a messenger =angel. There was certainly an angel present with Bailom. And one in the garden also.

I'm sitting here reading these well thought out posts and I praise God that Genesis 1:26 was set in motion.
Ah, such a blessing to be made in the Trinity's tselem (representative) and demooth (likeness) whereby God crafted humankind with moral attributes, intellect and with emotion.

Chancey, you wrote "In the NT, 1 Timothy 2:14 pretty much throws Eve under the bus, and blames the fall from Eden strictly on Eve and not Adam. Yet in Genesis 3:6, Adam was with Eve when it happened. They both were seduced. It wasn't as if Eve was off on her own, her husband was with her."

I read that as Adam sinned and Eve was deceived and sinned.
Verse 15 "But women" is useful here although my NASB use of "woman" isn't as accurate as the Greek original language word Paul wrote; sothesetai which is a future tense (coming later) passive voice (action will be done to the person - they will not do it), indicative mood (the action is certain to happen) 3 person singular = the English word "she."

So we read; "But she (maybe Eve?) will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self restraint."
And wonder is this a woman bearing the Seed or a woman bearing faithful children?

We try to keep it all in context, while we focus on the One who gave us intellect to do it in the 1st place!

Blessings,
Mark

I was hoping you would respond to this Mr June,
Adam most definitely sinned , Eve was in transgressions when she took the fruit after saying God had commanded not to take the fruit. When Adam blamed Eve for his part, wasn't he not only transgressing but didn't this also make him an accuser?

Hath God said ? Hath God really said ? Have all of our english translations handled the word of god correctly ? I think not.

Gen 3:16 in the ESV : To the woman he said, I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to[a] your husband, but he shall rule over you.

Gen 3:16 KJV : Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Textual criticism is a big subject, but changes like this begs the question, are the scholars translating or interpreting ??

It looks to me like the ESV translation--- interpretation was already going woke by 3:6Genesis.

We as imperfect, will always translate, and if it's done as a private interpretation we should never consider it inspired. When I read Gen 3 : 16 I think of it as a shadow of our desire to our husband ( Jesus Christ) as Christians we being the bride of Christ. 1 Tim 2: 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in child bearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. There is much scripture that support the nature of the woman as the nature of the bride of christ. To be in reference and to desire thy husband. The same could be said for the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Be a living sacrifice. This is only my interpretation as I write it . But I believe it aligns with multiple writings with the same inspiration.

Fantastic observation!!

ABSOLUTELY!!! Angels interact with us more than we realize. They have ways of communicating with us through all kinds of ways.

In Matthew ch 4 when Jesus fasted in the desert and was tempted by the devil --- Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Foxkid44 thanks for chiming in .
I believe when we go through temptation the Holy spirit may send angels to minister to us. Maybe through some one we know, kind of like the taking donkey lol.
The holy spirit gives us conviction and God's army of angels confirmation?
Just a thought.

Translations have been recognized as more literal (I use an NASB) or more interpretive (there are many) and all translations are genuine in an attempt to capture the proper context and words accurately.

I just preached on Genesis 3:15 and 3:16, known as the "Protoevangelium"... the proto (first) evangelium (good news) and it's interesting the translations we see.

The Hebrew word its-saw-bones is the word in 3:16 where many translations read "pain." And it can be that but "sorrow" is more in line with the original textual context. So the sentence reads;
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow in childbirth". Makes sense since Eve will have a child who will follow the serpent and so there is no doubt "sorrow" when one son kills another. Or pain thought of in it's proper place but we think of pain in our culture as physical pain when the Hebrew word means more along the lines of psychological and spiritual ache.

And then the word for "husband" is "eesh" and Eesh in Hebrew is most always interpreted as "man".
So that reads.... "In sorrow you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your "man" and he will rule over you."
Paints the picture of the Promise of God to Eve of sorrow AND a Savior.
The Hope of Life.
The Sorrow of Death.

Great narrative that deserves a proper understanding of the Messiah to come. After all, "faith" in the OT was in this Genesis 3:15 Promise. And even Gentile wise men heard and came bearing gifts thousands of years after God spoke this FIRST Good News to the 1st mother.

Blessings,
Mark

Fascinating discussion.

Happy to see you post Aaron! Been awhile.

Gen 3:16 in the ESV : To the woman he said, I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to[a] your husband, but he shall rule over you.

Gen 3:16 KJV : Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


The differences in the above verses that I was pointing out is the word in bold. Contrary. That single word changes the meaning of the last part of the verse in the ESV to something close to the exact opposite that my KJV says. No there are no contradictions in the word of God. There are however bad translations. I've spent many years studying textual criticism because its something I find interesting. The editorial board of the ESV took a lot of heat for that single change by a lot of people.

I believe the minority text that most modern versions are based on has some serious errors. Some more so than others of course. Generally speaking there are few differences between our english versions as far as the old testament is concerned.Jesus did affirm it after all. In the new testament its an entirely different story and there are lots of differences. Bibles based on the minority / critical / alexandrian text omit many verses that the majority text includes. I would argue that the two main manuscripts that are responsible for most of these differences ( codex Vaticanus & Sinaiticus ) are highly suspect.