Not sure how pointing out liberal thinking is name calling it’s a fact they lack forward thinking? BC you’re on the flip side of the coin every time and you don’t seem to get it either.

well James I will give you my logic

we have around a billion guns in this country , the 450 million number is just background checks since 1997

with 1 billion guns and 330 million people now the estimate is 47-49% own a gun or live in a household with one.

the CDC has made the break down a bit harder to see these days
last time I saw it published the breakdown was quite clear we have a suicide issue and a drug & gang violence issue

here are the more recent numbers 2021

all firearms deaths 48,830
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

we know however and the CDC is still reporting as of 2021 firearms suicides
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

total suicide 48,183
26,328 firearms suicides for 2021 which sounds low compared to earlier stats
by the way suffocation 12,431 and 5,568 poisoning I would assume the remaining 3,856 are jumps and cutting or other.

to give these deaths some context 106,699 drug overdose deaths for 2021

and 660,000 self harm trips to the ER

accidental poisoning is 101,000

Cars are getting almost safe to ride in at just 45K traffic fatalities.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
all homicide 26,031
firearms homicide 20,958

all firearms death 48,830
firearms suicide 26328 + all firearms homicides 20,958 = 47,286

48,830 total - 47,286 intentional = 1544 possibly unintentional but subtract the 874 Judicial intervention (shot by police) deaths = 670 actual probable accidents 59.9% handgun (402) , 8.7% rifle (59) 6.7% shotgun (45) 24.6% not specified (164)
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/ss/pdfs/ss7205a1-h.pdf

yes violent crime in the drug and gang related has gone up a bunch in the last few years however understand that drugs and the gangs that run them are illegal and they bring in actual TONS (>300 tons were seized ) of drugs a few guns along for the ride wouldn't be hard at all it happens in nearly every country no matter how few guns in private hands drug dealers and suppliers have guns.

I hate to pick on one demographic but the people who own statistically the fewest guns are responsible for the most firearms homicides and they are up 39% which is why the firearms homicide number is way up

what does this mean for Joe avg citizen in suburban not hole heck of a lot as long as he isn't involved in drugs, drug trade or gangs.

do the have a drug issue and a homicide issue that stems largely from the drug and gang issues , yes we do

so accident/ND vs non accident 2 in a million accidental or unintentional negligent discharge firearms deaths approximately.

we also have a few reporting issues but when the answer isn't what they want it to be they make sure to take poor stats on it.

another thing to look at. Mental illness, those with mental illness can pass the NICS check! why? because their mental illness cannot be passed to the ATF due to the HIPPA laws in place. Every mass shooter in the past has had mental issues, most were known to law enforcement so is this intensional to get the body count up to sway public opinion on gun control?
My AR must be defective, it hasn't killed anyone in 30 years

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....ables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

Point out that you are almost twice as likely to be killed by your friends' hands or feet as someone's AR 15.

Bingo!

You moved to a good area White Marlin, most all here think like you do....with the exception of your neighbor. (college brainwashed and were teaching in our education system unfortunately)

A gun is an inanimate object that does nothing until an evil hand guides it.

If you don't think the Hitler reference isn't logical I think you are laking in logical thought. His gun laws enabled him to carry out his evilness to the max.

Many examples of civilizations being disarmed then murdered by the millions it’s been going on forever just not going to happen to me.

Hi James,

Your private message mail box is maxed out.

So, for so important information I hope you watch this Youtube video,

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+tim+kenndy+no+help+is+coming&rlz=1C1AVNC_enUS602US608&oq=youtube+tim+kenndy+no+help+is+coming&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyDAgDECEYChgWGB0YHtIBCTEwNzg3ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:65af735c,vid:iVonYGu-pg4,st:0

Anyone else who hasn't watched or know who Tim Kennedy is should also watch.

Title of the video is No Help Is Coming.

Maybe you can get some ammo for your debate from this. I hope so.

Here's another one about the Maine shooting from a few days ago.
https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+videos+mike+glover+lewiston%2C+maine&sca_esv=577883791&rlz=1C1AVNC_enUS602US608&ei=M_k_ZdyJM9jdptQPy_-qmAE&ved=0ahUKEwic75zCtp6CAxXYrokEHcu_ChMQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=youtube+videos+mike+glover+lewiston%2C+maine&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKnlvdXR1YmUgdmlkZW9zIG1pa2UgZ2xvdmVyIGxld2lzdG9uLCBtYWluZTIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRirAkjLQlD3CFjIPXABeACQAQCYAX-gAdkNqgEENi4xMbgBA8gBAPgBAcICChAAGEcY1gQYsAPCAggQIRgWGB4YHeIDBBgAIEGIBgGQBgg&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ed832c6a,vid:f7OdbVlaowo,st:0

Looks like no way to turn off the BS commercials before the video plays.

The one above with Tim Kennedy and this one with Mike Glover both contain important information.

"I've already been accused of being "insulting" for suggesting there is a rural/urban divide in how guns are perceived and used. I don't get it."

What was the insult? I don't get it either? Generally guns in rural areas are used to kill animals. In urban areas guns appear to be used primarily for personal protection and to commit crimes. I think this would affect peoples' perceptions?

Not sure of the motive, but I think James is playing ya'll with this imaginary debate.

if he is, he's a feminine hygiene product

James look up the FBI homicide tables, there are in the neighborhood of 300+ people killed by all rifles on average in the U.S. yearly. If you dig deep you'll find that about 1/3 of these (or about 100) are committed with assault "style" weapons and none with actual automatic true assault weapons. So here's the question, 3500 people are killed texting while driving as a yearly average in the U.S. according to the "national highway traffic safety administration", so about 35 times as many. Both murder and texting while driving are already illegal, so what's the bigger problem? just to put a different perspective on this. I think this has already been pointed out at least once.

Hey, I've got an ally. Someone just posted this:

"I think discussing a gun ban is a cathartic waste of time. It will never pass. It does not solve the issue of the millions of guns already in circulation. It does nothing about the root causes of criminal violence (as Jim pointed out many times). Furthermore it deprives many law-abiding citizens of the only equalizing factor they would have in a self defense scenario. People who are elderly, disabled, physically weak or ill, etc. would pretty much be defenseless against the typical male attacker.

"We had break-ins when I was a kid, and one that always sticks with me was when two guys had broken into my mom’s car in the garage, and threatened her to go back inside. She did, and returned with a shotgun. In the real world, the police are not going to teleport to you when you fall victim to a crime. It will be up to you to defend yourself or your family. Legal, responsible firearm ownership is in my opinion the best way to ensure that every citizen has a realistic chance to do that."

Keep us updated on the responses, James!

This is how the debate yesterday ended up. Notice one guy only posts articles about victims. Names are disguised to protect privacy--it's a private forum.

Jim Sarafin — Yesterday at 5:52 PM
First we were talking about ARs, now Liz says, "There are many kinds of guns that are a problem and we have way too many of them in this country." From the type of rifle favored by killers to all guns. How many are too many? I have six single-shot rifles. Is that too many? I collect these. None of them are going to leave the safe where they're stored (I have grandkids that come around) and go kill people.

[5:55 PM]
How many of you live in or near large urban areas? There's a real urban/rural divide over the need for guns.


Ms X— Yesterday at 6:00 PM
I live in a village of 125 people. I work in a town of 2000. Rural. Farmers. Hunters. My school has a trap shooting team. City or rural, doesn't matter: mass shootings can happen anywhere here in America. (edited)


Jim Sarafin — Yesterday at 6:01 PM
It's an American problem, but the perception of what if anything to do about it varies, generally by geographic location in part,

@Jim Sarafin
How many of you live in or near large urban areas? There's a real urban/rural divide over the need for guns.


Ms. Y — Yesterday at 6:08 PM
Jim, with all due respect, you're making a gross assumption here that's insulting to the people on this discord. I live in Texas and have grown up around guns my entire life. I also have children in elementary school. My youngest daughter's school went on lockdown the same morning as the shooting in Lewiston. My nephew goes to college in Lewiston. This is not an abstract issue. It's real people with real lives that are being lost. It's teachers and students having to live in fear in a way that you or I had no conception of growing up.
💯
4

Mr. X — Yesterday at 6:10 PM
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/29/1209...jWsokh3heI8b99vvkB-waC_y8UF10v_Fg_PoAfbo


[6:10 PM]
Image


Jim Sarafin — Yesterday at 6:20 PM
I don't see how you can interpret my words as insulting. Sorry if you did, but I did say "generally" and "in part." It's a fact most rural inhabitants feel differently than the prevailing opinions expressed here. Their view is partly determined by the needs specific to their locations. Someone I think envisioned guns as a hobby. I was just curious how many here live in urban areas. Guns aren't just a hobby to folks in rural areas.


Ms. Z— Yesterday at 6:28 PM
Sure, take the word "hobby" and unpack it. The point I was making was there is a huge human cost to making access to guns almost unlimited. Seems way too high.

Jim Sarafin — Yesterday at 6:48 PM
I agree, Liz, which is why I said we need better screening for people buying guns, especially ARs. Right now in most of the US I can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun (even an AR) within thirty minutes. I like the convenience, but I'd be willing to bear more of an administrative burden if it would stop one mass shooting. Card, with his history, shouldn't have been able to buy an AR. He shouldn't have been allowed near a gun store.


Jim

in Milwaukee the statistic is something like 97% Felon on Felon homicide
that is also the vast majority of all firearms homicides in WI

so you would think why would you even step foot in MKE while they do sometimes happen around the city you can almost predict what set of streets will have the shooting.

everyone got mad when former Chief of police Flynn gave his 4 rules for not getting shot in MKE , people hated on him for it but he wasn't wrong
https://www.cbs58.com/news/milwauke...imple-rules-to-not-get-shot-in-milwaukee

The first two were simple; don't belong to a gang and don't be a drug dealer.

"The third rule of thumb is don't illegally carry a gun," continued Chief Flynn.

"And the fourth one is if you are in an argument, with a stranger, ask them how often they've been arrested. And if they've been arrested more often than you've been arrested, concede the point."

he was stressing that people who get shot in MKE are by in large "criminally involved"

you have a very small fraction of the population committing the vast majority of the problem criminals are going to be criminals and do criminal things and only 2 things makes them stop most of the time death and still being in prison.
empty the prisons and crime goes back up
heck sometimes the same day you let them out of jail they take a car and run down a Christmas parade killing several and injuring a lot more.
but by all means keep practicing catch and release with criminals so you can catch them again and again and again.

That ain't like Jim at all!!!!!!