It would seem to a commoner like me with so little experience with these coyotes it’s not the equipment nor method day or night that is the problem. It would seem the practitioners of the endeavor need to do a whole lot more learning on when to pull the trigger and to do that they need to understand their own abilities and limitations.

Called in day or night, a properly dispatched coyote/coyotes learn nothing nor go on to teach other canines.
Or so it would seem.

Osky

What’s better than a high quality digital recording of the real thing?

The next best thing is the real thing sitting next to you.

What about the ones not dispatched?

Calling, by nature, educates a tremendous percentage of coyotes. Whether youre good at it or not.

You call in two coyotes, smoke em both. The two coyotes over the hill, or down the draw that you never see, hear and/or see it all go down and now may or may not (probably may) be wiser for it. You call in five, two suck in but three hold up 400-500 yards. You smoke the two, but same deal for the other three. You didnt do anything wrong, it is what it is.

Now throw in everybody and their brothers uncle for 10-15 years plugging away from dawn till dusk (now 24 hours with thermals) all winter.

If you think youre going back into areas a few weeks to a few months later and cleaning up your educated ones, youre dreaming.

20 Years ago we used to carry a scattergun religiously. Didnt matter what the terrain or cover was, wide open wheat stubble as far as the eye can see, bring a shotgun. Coyotes would very often suck in to under 100 yards before starting for the wind. Now theyre trying for the wind at 500-600 yards already.

Prior to thermals, coyotes at least got the night to un-wind, relax, and decompress. Now they dont even get that. And its changing them.

We just came off a dozen years of a decent coyote market. 2008-2020. In that time weve had more people out calling coyotes than theres ever been. For every trapper theres ten or more callers, at least. (And they all claim theyre stacking em up like cord wood all winter). But what did it do to coyote numbers? Not a darn thing!

I used to think a good caller could have a decent impact in a small area. Not any more. Id say calling, as a whole, kills on average about 10% of the coyotes available to kill anymore. Thats not the problem though, its what it does to the remaining 90%.

Just talking with a good friend the other day. He was probably the top coyote producer in his state the last couple years of that coyote market. He says coyotes are working roadkill deer baits differently in his area since the explosion of thermal hunters have figured out sitting over baits.

And, I LOVE coyote calling. Im not disparaging it. But, this IS happening.

Around here we have enough cover I think a good percentage of coyotes will circle down wind and never be seen while calling. That educates them pretty fast

As far as revenge killing I don’t think it’s revenge get back at humans. Maybe it’s more out of frustration.

I remember reading somewhere where turkeys were being hunted hard for many years and some toms simply gobbled less than others. What was happening was the Tom’s that gobbled more were being killed and the ones left where the ones that didn’t gobble much. Those traits were being passed on through generations and in that area there were a lot of Tom’s that just didn’t gobble and were harder to hunt.

I also remember reading that same thing about rattlesnakes. There was some place where they were hunted and after awhile through generations there was a lot or rattlesnakes that weren’t rattling.

Boone I think you make many of my points and we are in agreement on most.

I stand pat on too many people buying too much equipment in the expectation of big results, accomplishing the opposite.

Osky

What "top Wolf and Coyote men" do you speak of? They should write Disney movies instead of pretending to know about wolfs and coyotes.

The coyote in the building, or the coyote on the grassy knoll?

For a coyote or wolf to commit "revenge" killing, they would need to be able to do deductive reasoning. Otherwise, how would they know that killing Farmer Fred's sheep would be revenge for their pack members going missing? How would they even know they belonged to Farmer Fred? Unless they think the sheep killed the other coyotes?

Perhaps and most likely I called it the wrong thing, because I didn't know what else to call it. Three that I can think of off the top of my head if my memory serves me are O'Gorman, Pederson, and Frank Glaser. A little bit of canine knowledge between those three ? If you have read the entire post from start to finish which I have several times, there certainly seems to be something to it. There are some fantastic responses in this thread and I thoroughly enjoyed reading each and every one of them. On top of all of that Savell, like only Savell can do, made me laugh out loud twice. I enjoy laughing very much ! Usually when I start a post my intentions are to learn way more than they are to educate. Like I said in the original post, it's just something that intrigues me. Have a great day !!

I heard/read some of those same things as well. But can you believe everything you read. As far as the turkeys, it wasn’t the fact of humans killing them, it was the gobbling on the roost and coyotes or cats getting them when they flew down and gobbled. Their gobbling was luring in the predators. But I just read a study from TFT that disputed that claim based on radio collared birds in high density predator areas.
I do know turkeys have a hierarchy and only the dominant will gobble. We see this every Spring. Kill the loud mouth (only bird gobbling) and go back a few days later and hear multiple birds gobbling. I think it occurs with elk as well from what I’ve read. Think they call them satellite Bulls. They keep quiet and sneak in to steal a few cows for their own little harem.

I have no clue whether it’s true or not just remember reading about both of those things.

One thing I do know though is animals can and do evolve and change in order to survive. They can have smaller litters when food is scarce and larger litters when food is plentiful or when populations are large or small. Etc.

Okay
Don't know if you're an O'Gorman fan but he talks about this in his writings, all three snaring,traps and calling some very cool insight on this subject.

Havent seen it myself but have heard it from people I trust that when doing ADC work a red fox vixen will go nuts killing poultry or lambs or whatever stock triggered the complaint after her pups are removed

Nate I’m not an Ogorman fan, and I’m not not an Ogorman fan. I’ve heard of him for the longest time and I have known guys that spent time with him over in that Broadus area. Never met the fellow, never read much of his published work if any that I recall. Maybe I should?

Osky

Osky
I'm not knocking anyone, but I've read sh-t tons of new and old info. On the coyote and red fox, O'Gorman love him or hate him he's killed a sh-t tons of critters and he goes into great detail on how it's done and coyote behavior. one other book that's worth reading is The Red Fox Of IOWA it's got a lot of info but only on Red Fox.
I think ogorman writes more on behavior than on methods, but if you learn there behavior it makes killing them a lot easier.

No problem Nate, I didn’t think any odd thing you were implying. Context in these forums is seldom crystal clear and not worth getting goofy over, at least not to me.

Osky

No me neither, I'm not a very good writer, I sure aint trying to offend anyone, and sure was not offended by you.