I think Nancy was talking about the battle on here. That is how I took it anyway. The battle with Oscar is dead and gone. The PT room is a great way to clean the floor, if you are a big enough buyer and they think you may have interest, they will call and play "lets make a deal"

Northof50 - addressing 2 questions you raised.

Internet bidding ends 2 days before auction room bidding starts. I think the reason for that is the technology to have live internet bidding at the same time as room bidding is too expensive (maybe too complex) for FH system. An all internet bidding worked fine during COVID but isn’t necessary now. But for us small buyers, it is nice to be able to bid online without have to travel to North Bay.

Shipper accounts are settled 3 times a year (at least that is my understanding). 3 weeks after the first sale, 3 weeks after the second sale, at the end of the fiscal year (some time in late October). Since I bought those coyotes in November, those shippers will be paid along with the sellers at the March sale. Make sense???

I'm still confused about this Chinese new years problem and who the heck NAFTA was?

Many folks confuse NAFA with NAFTA. After all, they sort of sound alike.

And you wonder why they don’t understand how fur sales work………….

I think I've got it: Nafa went away because Trump couldn't get Mexico to pay for the wall.

understandable

I think I have a pretty good idea how they work.

NAFTA Certificate of Origin
Key Tips:

The exporter is responsible for filling out the NAFTA Certificate of Origin, not the importer.
Once an exporter has determined the product qualifies for NAFTA, the exporter needs to fill out a NAFTA Certificate of Origin UNLESS the product going to Canada or Mexico is valued at LESS than $1,000 USD. In these cases, the exporter simply needs to make a written declaration on the commercial invoice stating that the product is NAFTA qualifying.
Once the Certificate is completed, the exporter needs to send the original or a copy of the Certificate of Origin to the importer. It is recommended that a copy of the Certificate of Origin is also included with the shipment. The exporter is required to keep all documentation of NAFTA claims five years from the date of importation or such longer period as a Party may specify after the completion of the transaction.

I was down there talking to everybody.

Boco:

"I was down there talking to everybody."

I am sure you must be wrong. Nancy seems to have a better handle on the market and none of us should know more about it than her.

but their year end is 31 Dec and all accounts are to be paid out
under Canadian banking laws they have to pay interest on moneys owed....but that is another bag of worms
they sure charge interest on advances given in past years

I am not familiar with Canadian banking laws. I will defer to your knowledge of that subject since you are Canadian.

I’m not sure what the “year” is called but I am quite sure one of FH’s “years” ends the last part of October. That is when they send out “year end” statements to buyers for shipping charges and misc money owed to FH. Has been that way for a number of years.

Wissmiss as a fur buyer,has a lot of invaluable information that she shares on here.
A great asset to T-Man.

In Nancy's scenario, FHA made considerably more money than the trapper who caught the coyotes did. That is probably going to rub more than a few trappers wrong, possibly?? What is the current drumming charge per coyote? It sounds like several buyers are pro-PT room, and several trappers are anti-PT room........ go figure both sides have raised some good points

According to her no one knows more than her not even boco so that must be the case. I am sure you were never there and did not talk with anyone. Probably fabricated the truth to make yourself look good.

I sell quite a bit of fur outside of the auction house and not to the raw fur market in the summer months
The two things that is important to me,the seller is clearance and price.
I set my price based on my supply.If I sell too cheap everything will sell out and I am left with no inventory for future sales until I can go get more on the line for next season.If I have a high inventory and want it to clear,I will have to drop my price.Conversely if my inventory is low I can raise the price so it will take longer to sell.In either case my inventory will be cleared preferably right at the end of the selling season.You wind up losing customers when you run out of inventory because they will find somewhere else to acquire what they want.
If my prices are too high I wont sell enough and will have inventory left over and more coming next year.
When selling a commodity it is a balancing act you have to basically juggle your price up and down to meet the market and clear all your inventory by the end of the season before the goods come in for the next selling season.Lots of times you adjust up or down as you go.
No different for selling commoditys anywhere at any scale.basic laws of supply and demand.

Trapped4ever - in your post, you said FH made more money off the coyotes I bought than the trapper did. How do you know that.

I did not mention what I paid for the coyotes. FH has to make money to pay their bills and stay in business.

On any given pelt, FH charges 3 fees, in many cases, 2 additional fees may be charged.

The 3 set fees are -

11% commission charged to the seller based on hammer price.

8.2% commission charged to the buyer based on hammer price.

Packing/handling fee charged to the buyer, varies by species
Muskrat 50 cents per pelt
Coyote $3.50 per pelt
Grizzly bear $100.00 per pelt.

Possible additional fees -

Shipping fee charged to the seller. $15.00 per shipment in most cases for US shippers. This is a per shipment fee no matter the number of pelts. If you send 5 muskrats, you pay $15.00. If you send 500 muskrats you pay $15.00. There is a provision that if the total of your goods sold is less than $100.00, the $15.00 fee is waived.

Drumming fee - charged for all long hair fur - coyote, bobcat, fox, marten, wolves, etc. the charge varies by species. Last time I checked, the coyote drumming fee was $1.50. It may have increased.


Let’s compare the figures. For simplicity sake, I have not factored in the seller shipping fee because it is a big unknown

If FH sells a coyote for $100.00, they make $24.20. Shipper gets $87.50

If FH sells a coyote for $5.00, they make $5.96. Shipper gets $2.95.

Note - I double checked the math but I’m sure some one will let me know if I made an error.

Wissmiss,
I misunderstood your earlier post, I looked back at it and realized you are stating FHA MADE $350, NOT that that is what you paid. I thought you bought some cheap/ junk fur as in coyotes at $3.50 each....
Your $5 coyote scenario showed exactly what I was attempting to refer to, as an example of how much higher of a percentage of the money generated, that FHA retains on the lower value furs.

Trapped4ever - I agree with you 110% about the high percentage that FH makes on lower value fur.

That is one reason FH has a problem selling low value fur. And why they discourage trappers from shipping low grade fur. The handling fee is greater than the hammer price. 50 cent handling on a 10 cent ermine. Doesn’t pencil out for the trapper or the buyer.

The charging of handling and packing fees only started in the early 1990s (or their abouts). Up to that point it had been strictly a percent commission. It was about that time that the fur market tanked big time. And the folks at NAFA were “losing money”, so they started charging a packing fee, so much a pelt based on species. FH followed suit.

The packing/handling fees at FH are set in stone (to the best of my knowledge), when bidding on and buying Section 3 goods, I’ve mentioned the relatively high fee compares to pelt price and every time, I’m told “nothing can be done about that fee.

Where excessive fees really make money is in the regular commerical goods.

Not hard to shallow all the extra fees on the top end goods when you look at the overall cost to purchase.

Where it hurts the shippers is the buyers know exactly what the cost are and I believe CITES extra fees are not in the discussion but never the less hurt the trapper for example low otter averages.

Fees isolate the auction company from the hammer price as the money is not legtimately made off a auction commission.

Instead of working harder to get the best possible price for the trapper they rely on extra charges on both ends of the auction process.

Averages are given to the trapper before all the extra fees are deducted.

For example a $40 marten average is bullsh-t after you factor in the drumming charge $1.50, in are case here in Ontario $2.60 royality fee, 11%commission $4.40 shipping $15. magazine charge $10.

A $40 gross average becomes a $30 net average

Add the effect of buyer charges and you have packing fees and commission fees that while the trapper doesn't think they pay the buyer has to account for this charge so the hammer price is dropped.

Fees are killing the industry.

Gibb - not sure on the sellers end but on the buyers end, the fee for CITES paperwork is included in the packing/handling fee. For what it is worth. I think packing/handling on otter and bobcat is $10.00.