https://www.academia.edu/89275053/R..._demographics?email_work_card=view-paper

Tall Timbers has probably done more bobwhite quail research than any other facility. They have been very successful in their management practices and strongly believe controlled fire is of utmost importance. They developed a predator survey and quantified what percentage of scent post visits indicated a density of predators that limited quail populations. The difference in the number of predators that allow a flourishing quail population and the number of predators that depressed quail numbers is actually not that different. It goes to show - at least in their area - it MAY not take the removal of a lot of predators to make a difference.

Again...I feel you are correct. What wildlife agencies are trying down here isn't working.

Here in Georgia three years ago:
They shortened our season by 2 weeks.
They reduced limit from 3 gobblers to 2.
They created a 1 gobbler daily bag limit (prior years could kill all 3 same day.)

All this was enacted because "research" says removing the breeding gobblers disrupts the breeding cycle too much causing delayed breeding, much later nesting, poor hatching success. I don't buy into this reasoning.

Here's the interesting thing about all this...we just completed our 3rd year of these new regs here in Georgia, but this same group of reductions, plus 1 gobbler per WMA per season, was put in place 5 years ago on a large WMA in what has historically been considered prime middle Georgia Piedmont turkey woods (Cedar Creek WMA). There has been no noticeable increase in the population...in fact it appears there is a continuing decline.

So you believe all the breed able hens are laying eggs and hatching them successfully and then the poults are just walking along dying? Same with the deer?
Now this is despite the fact everything expect maybe squirrels will eat a poult/chick in a heartbeat…I can tell you on 5 different properties that the quail and turkey populations have increased after several years of trapping. BUT, the habitat is prime habitat for those locations too.
You do realize there are people whose only purpose is to make sure there are huntable populations of quail and turkeys? Everyone of these guys will tell you, without trapping that ain’t happening. I’m not talking just during trapping season, year round trapping.
Georgia has an open season on beaver, coyote, coon, and possum. Other than the Planatation’s and a few landowners, I’d be willing to say there’s probably less than 100 folks in the State trapping right now. The few I know of are hitting it hard and will be until August or so. Any late nesting hen or quail depends on it.
Y’all worried about saving some for seed for the next year, lol. We’re trying to make them extinct! From April last year until this past April my son trapped over 900 predators in cages and footholds on 5K acres. He’s already close to 200 since April 1 this year. He wants to break a thousand by next April.

I dont know that anyone is saying the turkey decline is strictly a result of predation. According to the vast bulk of research (correct or not), it is the number one DIRECT cause. Poor habitat by itself does not directly kill many turkeys, but that poor habitat may lead to greater levels of predation, or lack of food leading to starvation - both direct causes.

I started trapping in the 1970’s and hit my peak in the 80’s with several years, I lived in a tent all winter for two or three months and did nothing but trap. I pretty much quit in the early 90’s, but started back in the mid to late 90’s, and quit again until 14 years ago when I moved to my farm full time. I cant speak for other areas of the country - but here in SW AR, the density of predator increase from the 80’s to the late 90’s was starkly evident, just as obvious as the increase from the late 90’s to present day.

While this thread references game birds, in many areas it is most ground living small animals. We also have almost no rabbits and no cotton rats. Tall Timbers quail research found management to improve cotton rat populations also improved quail populations. When cotton rat populations are low, more predators turn to quail. When cotton rat populations are high, more predators concentrate on cotton rats. They have found supplemental feeding improves cotton rat body mass index and increases litter size - just as it does quail.

Just 15 years ago, I always wore a pair of snake boots when out at night. Some days I might see ten or a dozen snakes, or more. I dont see ten snakes in a year, now - on the same ground. In the 80’s and 90’s my wife and I used to go out on warm rainy early spring nights and drive around and pick up a one lb coffee can full of salamanders, spade foot toads, and other amphibians for an old Herps professor I knew. I have not seen a salamander of any kind in the last 15 years. Mink are gone. Muskrats are gone. Red Fox are gone.

Outside of predators, what we do have in abundance are deer, hogs, and squirrels - and fawn recruitment is declining. Why have these animals not become scarce in these parts when so many others have. All three species are actively hunted. Deer and hogs are large enough where they and their young are not subject to high levels of predation by the smaller predators, and squirrels nest off the ground, often in protective nest cavities in trees. Also, by nature, their habitat demands are not as narrow as are many game birds.

Speaking strictly for my own state, below is the bow hunter survey results for predator sightings reported by bowhunters on their annual survey over many thousands of hours.




According to their sightings, not mine, all predators with the exception of red fox have increased over the last 20 years, some substantially - 20, 30, 40% or more. Again, this is my state and is probably more exaggerated than more northern states as our predator fur species - coon, possum, skunk, and coyote have basically been worthless as far as fur prices go - for longer than more northern states. While many of these animals are omnivorous, they all eat meat when available. Where is the extra food coming from for the increasing population of the predator base. I used to bush hog a five acre field and see maybe 50 or more cotton rats. Now, I dont see any. I used to have rabbit and bird dogs, but rabbits and quail do not exist in huntable numbers. I used to wear snake boots because of high snake numbers, and now they are scarce. Salamanders and other small amphibians are gone.

My land joins 55,000 acres of federal land that has changed very little in the past 20 years - or even 60 years for that matter. It is not far fetched to think if most common predatory mammals are increasing 10 to 50% - their prey species are going to suffer. This is rural land - timberland and cattle farms. No row crop.

I first hunted and trapped 45 years ago where I now live on my 350 acres. As someone with a degree in wildlife management and a minor in botany, and having worked in natural resource management for 34 years, and having continued to work my own land for another dozen years - it is very difficult for me to discern any major changes in land use practices in my area. Our turkey population reached its peak 20 years ago. Fescue was prevalent in the cattle pastures then. Little prescribed fire was used in his area back then. Quail were already gone, but cotton rats, snakes, and turkeys were numerous - as were feral hogs.

But, I dont know if general use of pesticides and herbicides by farmers and timber management has changed. Spring rainfall patterns have changed. There was a 600 acre row crop area that recently sold due to inability to raise crops over the last eight years due to wet ground. It has since been planted in trees. I have seen hotter weather than what we have recently seen. I have seen cooler weather. I am sure there are more subtle changes I have not recognized. The only thing blatantly obvious is the increase of predators and the decrease of prey species. I do understand that research is often concentrated on the obvious. But, some of the long time turkey researchers have beat the nesting success research into the ground and are now investigating diseases, social hierarchy, and a vast array of other subjects. Hopefully, one day they find the golden egg - but more likely it is going to be a whole basket of things, many if which will not lend themselves to implementation at scale.

Think I’m gonna hold off on getting a bird early next year, lol. That one turkey has a swinging beard! Was pulling traps Thursday and saw these in the dove field. The field was planted that afternoon.

https://youtube.com/shorts/P41U5CwHt-k?si=v4MlBpJQCD6P0mm

https://youtube.com/shorts/d8UFZy0Il90?si=wYExqNyCoN949XBr

Interesting take on the cicada emergence.

The gist of this article is that in areas with large numbers of emerging cicadas the predators will focus more on eating them instead of turkey poults....so, poult survival should be much better.

https://turkeysfortomorrow.org/cicada-emergence-and-turkey-population-growth/

I am fortunate to live in part of WI that the population is still going up. We are in the heart of ag so chemicals don’t seem to be bothering here. They are almost treated like a pest. Not uncommon to see large flocks of a couple hundred birds in the fall all over the place. I usually use the fall season to shoot a few hens just to slow the increase.

Now that I did a timber harvest, way more birds stick around come spring. We shot 5 birds on my 50 acres and easily could have shot a couple more if I would have had guys go the last couple weeks of the season I put way more value in the habitat idea. Turkeys need different types of habitat for different times of the year..

I noticed if you keep the buckthorn smaller size, they really like to nest in it. About all buckthorn is good for.

Excuse my Yankee ignorance, but just what the heck is a cotton rat ?

walleyed

I have heard and its been true in my limited experience that once a turkeys nest has been found they abandon it. Have you noticed this?

I have done some thinning in my woods, I have noticed that spring is about the only time I see turkeys with any frequency. And deer, don't mention them, I see them all day long, they love the large salad bar I have turned areas into. Most woodlots in ag country are vastly over grown, very poor habitat for anything.

The Grapes of Wrath was wonderful days of no herbicides.

While I'm not a fan of all the Ag spraying going on herbicides had absolutely nothing to do with the dust bowl.