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Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167181
07/06/24 04:23 PM
07/06/24 04:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2023
Posts: 2,177
WI
WI Outdoors Offline
trapper
WI Outdoors  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2023
Posts: 2,177
WI
I'm sold. I'm going to the bank Monday and borrowing 1.5

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Boco] #8167182
07/06/24 04:24 PM
07/06/24 04:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,436
Armpit, ak
D
Dirt Offline
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Dirt  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,436
Armpit, ak
Originally Posted by Boco
Originally Posted by Dirt
I think Dave Ramsey would recommend not having a lot of personal debt, especially credit card debt. Business debt is a whole other ball of wax. However, in the ( we will lend you money for less than inflation ) world, debt is free money.

You must be a firecracker buisness man running your trapping operation on debt since you claim to lose money trapping every year,lol.


Didn't know I ever lost money trapping? I could, if I was dumb enough to do it, when it is not profitable. Easy not to lose money. Don't trap when the price is too low.
crazy


Who is John Galt?
Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167186
07/06/24 04:29 PM
07/06/24 04:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,447
Three Lakes,WI 73
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corky Offline
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corky  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,447
Three Lakes,WI 73
Debt should be used as a tool. It should pay for itself .


http://www.usdebtclock.org/
This place is getting more like Facebook every day.

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167243
07/06/24 06:31 PM
07/06/24 06:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,775
South Ga - Almost Florida
S
Swamp Wolf Offline
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Swamp Wolf  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,775
South Ga - Almost Florida
Originally Posted by Pafoxman
I find it fascinating how many on here brag about being debt free or almost debt free. This is a great thing if you're retirement age...not a good thing if you are 50 or younger. Debt is the mechanism that will enable you to build wealth. For example, a guy I know were talking recently, he and his wife have a debt service of 5.3 million. This debt is on real estate worth 11 million. His mortgage payments are 39k a month on 8 rental properties that they list on Air bnb. Their monthly income is 140k-150k. After mortgage , taxes, and expenses they net 82k per month.
Every month they pay 6k in extra principal which increases their net worth and saves interest. Historically the properties have increased in value by 4 percent per year. When they purchase a new property they renovate it which also boosts its value. Refinancing some properties has allowed them to get tax free equity out of the property which they immediately roll into purchasing more real estate.
His words..."debt is the most powerful wealth building tool IF USED CORRECTLY!!"
My own personal experience is, I have debt of 1.5 million. At one time it was almost 3 million. That debt allows me to have an income of 480k per year gross. In 3 years I'll net an additional 110k per year. In ten years I'll net an another 200k. I'm investing 305k in solar which will save me 500k over 30 years (life of the system)
I'm saying all this to say, debt is not bad. Paying a vehicle in cash or a mortgage off early is fine. But that won't make you rich. Use debt to boost your gross income. When you retire, instead of working for $40 an hour and making 90k a year, you'll be making 500k a year. Only way this is possible is by debt service when you're younger.
Obviously this post is not about buying an atv on a credit card or other foolish decisions.

I'll say this Pafoxman.....you seem to be patting yourself on the back. With the interest you've paid and obviously still owe you could've wrote another paragraph or 2.

But, I will agree with you on one thing. For a poor man, with no base $$ or starting $$, then borrowing money/financing is the only way to increase your personal wealth. Most cannot manage this well enough to be successful, so great job!

I'm still trying to win the lottery....lol, but at 60 years old and now retired....I'm running outta time.

Last edited by Swamp Wolf; 07/06/24 07:25 PM. Reason: Spelling error

Thank God For Your Blessings!
Never Half-Arse Anything!

Resource Protection Service

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Boco] #8167257
07/06/24 07:12 PM
07/06/24 07:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,582
WI
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BvrRetriever Offline
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BvrRetriever  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,582
WI
Originally Posted by Boco
Originally Posted by BvrRetriever
The key to good debt is if you can earn more with the borrowed money than you have to pay to finance it. That’s when you are actually making money.

I’d say those on here who are proud of being debt free are speaking from a more personal living standpoint. They are proud to be able to afford their personal lifestyle without having to borrow to do it. If you are in debt so you can have the latest phone, new cars, boats, motorcycles, or other toys that depreciate…you’re headed down the wrong road.

That said, if you want to loan me money at 5% and I have a way to earn 10% on that money…I’ll take that deal all day long.

Thats the thinking that keeps the govermnts pushing all the wars-great for the bloated money machine economy-not so good for the working man.
And leaves a big balloon to burst.
Its coming,but like all ponzie schemes keep it going and to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) with the future generations.


I agree. I have no debt and I’ve got my own money to fund all of my business ventures. But if what I wanted to do required more than I’ve got, I’d look at the finance rate vs rate of return to figure out if it made sense. Pretty simple thought process really.

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167258
07/06/24 07:12 PM
07/06/24 07:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 644
Southaest Kansas
C
Coyote Clayton Offline
trapper
Coyote Clayton  Offline
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C

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 644
Southaest Kansas
Dave Ramsey for the win. Just like what was said, you pay interest or make interest. Done paying it.


Praise the Lord and Pass the ammunition.
Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Swamp Wolf] #8167265
07/06/24 07:33 PM
07/06/24 07:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,582
WI
B
BvrRetriever Offline
trapper
BvrRetriever  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,582
WI
Originally Posted by Swamp Wolf
Originally Posted by Pafoxman
I find it fascinating how many on here brag about being debt free or almost debt free. This is a great thing if you're retirement age...not a good thing if you are 50 or younger. Debt is the mechanism that will enable you to build wealth. For example, a guy I know were talking recently, he and his wife have a debt service of 5.3 million. This debt is on real estate worth 11 million. His mortgage payments are 39k a month on 8 rental properties that they list on Air bnb. Their monthly income is 140k-150k. After mortgage , taxes, and expenses they net 82k per month.
Every month they pay 6k in extra principal which increases their net worth and saves interest. Historically the properties have increased in value by 4 percent per year. When they purchase a new property they renovate it which also boosts its value. Refinancing some properties has allowed them to get tax free equity out of the property which they immediately roll into purchasing more real estate.
His words..."debt is the most powerful wealth building tool IF USED CORRECTLY!!"
My own personal experience is, I have debt of 1.5 million. At one time it was almost 3 million. That debt allows me to have an income of 480k per year gross. In 3 years I'll net an additional 110k per year. In ten years I'll net an another 200k. I'm investing 305k in solar which will save me 500k over 30 years (life of the system)
I'm saying all this to say, debt is not bad. Paying a vehicle in cash or a mortgage off early is fine. But that won't make you rich. Use debt to boost your gross income. When you retire, instead of working for $40 an hour and making 90k a year, you'll be making 500k a year. Only way this is possible is by debt service when you're younger.
Obviously this post is not about buying an atv on a credit card or other foolish decisions.

I'll say this Pafoxman.....you seem to be patting yourself on the back. With the interest you've paid and obviously still owe you could've wrote another paragraph or 2.

But, I will agree with you on one thing. For a poor man, with no base $$ or starting $$, then borrowing money/financing is the only way to increase your personal wealth. Most cannot manage this well enough to be successful, so great job!

I'm still trying to win the lottery....lol, but at 60 years old and now retired....I'm running outta time.


Humor me with your money and the lottery…stop doing that and put it in anything in the market…no matter what you pick or the return, you’ll be ahead trust me!!

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167270
07/06/24 07:45 PM
07/06/24 07:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,254
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Blaine County Offline
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Blaine County  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,254
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Originally Posted by Pafoxman
Blaine co, I'm certainly not bragging. Probably a lot of folks on here that are way better off than I am. Just offering a counter perspective to the "all debt is bad" mantra. I'd rather pay interest to a bank than pay income tax. Either way you're out the money. But debt service allows wealth increases. Taxes is money gone forever.


Some debt--for the right person, for the right venture and on the right terms makes a lot of sense.

I however know more well off people who worked hard and cash flowed investments than those who did it by leveraging themselves. Sure, I know some that did great borrowing. But more often than not divorce, illness, over extension or downturns got them.

And, the whole interest vs taxes rationale is what people tell themselves to justify borrowing money. You still pay taxes.

Not tearing your model down--I just have a different perspective.

I wish you the best in your endeavors.

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167273
07/06/24 07:49 PM
07/06/24 07:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,775
South Ga - Almost Florida
S
Swamp Wolf Offline
trapper
Swamp Wolf  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,775
South Ga - Almost Florida
BvrRetriever,

It was just that...humor. I don't spend $$ on the lottery.

I was born poor, live poor, and will die poor.


Thank God For Your Blessings!
Never Half-Arse Anything!

Resource Protection Service

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167274
07/06/24 07:52 PM
07/06/24 07:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 3,116
Pennsylvania
elsmasho82 Offline
trapper
elsmasho82  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 3,116
Pennsylvania
I’m not smart enough to have debt work for me. But I’m smart enough not to let it be the death of me. I feel a little better without it.

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167276
07/06/24 07:55 PM
07/06/24 07:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,869
Michigan
M
Michigander Offline
trapper
Michigander  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,869
Michigan
Leverage works both ways. When you are moving millions with leverage it doesn't take much opposing pressure for that lever to turn on you. There is no working a second job to pay back 40k a month. No option other than bankruptcy and then you have nothing.


Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167289
07/06/24 08:17 PM
07/06/24 08:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,492
Alaska and Washington State
W
waggler Offline
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waggler  Offline
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W

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,492
Alaska and Washington State
As long as is is the right kind of debt. Auto loan debt, cc debt; very bad.
Debt on some types of real estate; very good.

If it's a depreciating asset, you don't borrow money to buy it.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167302
07/06/24 08:43 PM
07/06/24 08:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,425
Kansas
Pawnee Offline
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Pawnee  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,425
Kansas
Bad debt is credit cards , high mortgage payments, vehicles. Land or property investments are different


Everything the left touches it destroys
Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167308
07/06/24 08:55 PM
07/06/24 08:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,941
Western Shore Delaware
SJA Offline
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SJA  Offline
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Posts: 2,941
Western Shore Delaware
I will suggest to those dealing in money, investment, debts, etc. to read a little book : "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason. Apply the knowledge and practice it's disciplines, and you may be far better off for your monetary future. :-)


"Humans are the hardest people to get along with."
Dr. Phillip Snow
Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pawnee] #8167309
07/06/24 08:59 PM
07/06/24 08:59 PM
Joined: May 2024
Posts: 1,437
Huntingdon, PA
NorthernTrapperO Offline
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NorthernTrapperO  Offline
trapper

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 1,437
Huntingdon, PA
Originally Posted by Pawnee
Bad debt is credit cards , high mortgage payments, vehicles. Land or property investments are different

Exactly, I know I'm a kid but I got tought good about debt and this is BAD

Last edited by NorthernTrapperO; 07/06/24 08:59 PM.

"Tell me and I forget, Teach me and I remember, involve me and I learn"
-Ben Franklin
Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: SJA] #8167316
07/06/24 09:22 PM
07/06/24 09:22 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 10,773
MN
S
Steven 49er Offline
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Steven 49er  Offline
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Posts: 10,773
MN
Originally Posted by SJA
I will suggest to those dealing in money, investment, debts, etc. to read a little book : "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason. Apply the knowledge and practice it's disciplines, and you may be far better off for your monetary future. :-)



Very good read


"Gold is money, everything else is just credit" JP Morgan
Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167318
07/06/24 09:24 PM
07/06/24 09:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 10,133
Indiana
P
Providence Farm Online content
trapper
Providence Farm  Online Content
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 10,133
Indiana
Originally Posted by Pafoxman
Blaine co, I'm certainly not bragging. Probably a lot of folks on here that are way better off than I am. Just offering a counter perspective to the "all debt is bad" mantra. I'd rather pay interest to a bank than pay income tax. Either way you're out the money. But debt service allows wealth increases. Taxes is money gone forever.


You are correct debt can be used to make a ton of money especially when used to get tax max benefits. Debt free here next month EXCEPT for the balance on an auto lone because the interest rate is 2.6% why pay it off when just the fidelity acount is paying over 5% so paying it off will cost me money.

Debt free also allows people piece of mind, freedom, and frees up more cash for investment.

I think small I guess only wanting to be comfortable and have time to enjoy life. For me thats very limited bills and enough capital invested to be able to live off returns with out touching my principal. I do a poor job at the enjoy life part working to meet goals but having an encouraging wife sure helps. She hates I'm gone but can see the long term benefits vs short term scraf especially now its getting closer. Still yet it's hard on all of us.

I may decide to use Debt for investing in land or rental property in the future but need a much better education on the ins and outs/tax benefits and learning the markets. I know I'm not there yet amd may never be.

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Swamp Wolf] #8167319
07/06/24 09:27 PM
07/06/24 09:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,582
WI
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BvrRetriever Offline
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WI
Originally Posted by Swamp Wolf
BvrRetriever,

It was just that...humor. I don't spend $$ on the lottery.

I was born poor, live poor, and will die poor.


Got ya…we have no control how we’re born but I think born poor helps you appreciate what you have and how you get there. How we live is up to us and I think it should be within our means. That doesn’t mean you are limited to what you were born with…that is the definition of the American dream….you can be whatever you want to be…just need means and ambition to get there. I wouldn’t say I was born poor…my parents had limited money growing up and they raised a family on a lot less than I’ve got today. They turned a meager living into something to be proud of. They showed me how to use what you have to get ahead in life. I wasn’t born with a lot but my parents taught me how to get there and that’s what I’ve been doing…same as them, debt free.

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Pafoxman] #8167332
07/06/24 09:47 PM
07/06/24 09:47 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 12,376
SW Georgia
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Wanna Be Offline
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Wanna Be  Offline
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SW Georgia
I’m not smart enough to be in debt to make money. I also lack the ambition. I have no desire to be rich, I just like being mediocre. I’ll be debt free soon enough and I’ll be happy. I have everything a man could want in this life, I don’t have to have status or exuberant amount of money to make me happy. I’m a simple man. I enjoy my job and my “second” job I’d do for free but get paid for.
I have buddy that has his irons in umpteen fires and is RICH, but always working and never has time to be happy. I prefer a more stress free life and lack of debt makes me that way. I’m just your average poor Southerner content with what I have.

Re: Debt is good!!!! [Re: Wanna Be] #8167413
07/06/24 11:52 PM
07/06/24 11:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 46,415
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
Originally Posted by Wanna Be
I’m not smart enough to be in debt to make money. I also lack the ambition. I have no desire to be rich, I just like being mediocre. I’ll be debt free soon enough and I’ll be happy. I have everything a man could want in this life, I don’t have to have status or exuberant amount of money to make me happy. I’m a simple man. I enjoy my job and my “second” job I’d do for free but get paid for.
I have buddy that has his irons in umpteen fires and is RICH, but always working and never has time to be happy. I prefer a more stress free life and lack of debt makes me that way. I’m just your average poor Southerner content with what I have.


You got it figured out.
Its fairly difficult to not make money so when it starts to build up too much I give it away to family.

Last edited by Boco; 07/06/24 11:53 PM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
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