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Psalm 82:6-8 #8169417
07/09/24 09:57 PM
07/09/24 09:57 PM
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sportsman94 Offline OP
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Curious what your thoughts are on these verses. I pretty recently came across the divine council/deuteronomy 32 word view so I canít think of any other application other than the author referring to a divine council of gods. Also curious what you think about Deuteronomy 32:8-10 if you donít subscribe to the divine council worldview.

These are the kinds of things I used to just skip over when I read them and think, hmm.. that was interesting

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Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169430
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Yep, according to the Biblical world view, Yahweh is not the only being that humans might call a god. He is the chief god, God above all gods, the creator and ruler of all, but not the only one. Clearly described on day 4 of creation and assumed throughout the rest of the Bible. Have you read Michael Heiserís book? I think thatís probably the most accessible scholarly work on the subject.

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169439
07/09/24 10:23 PM
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I havenít read unseen realm, but just opened up his Angels book tonight. Been listening to a bunch of podcasts with him and some others. Learning this now makes me aggravated that I was never taught before. Seems this kind of thing makes much more sense and is more consistent throughout the Bible than some other views for me

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169580
07/10/24 08:17 AM
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I don't really know what you are looking for here?
If it is there are other gods then yes, other wise why would God said have no other gods before me. gods can be a lot of things, money, job, spouse etc, that we put ahead of God. Jesus in His God nature did not die to save any other gods, other wise God himself would no longer exist. Jesus came and died in the flesh for man, to say other wise would be nearing antichrist territory would it not. If you are looking to make a separation that all are Gods' creation but not all are Gods children, but that those calling themselves the children of Abraham could be children of their father the devil? If that is the goal here then where does that start? Are we headed to predestination and double predestination, as in the beginning where some would be predestined to be heaven bound and others would be predestined to the downward place? If that is the case then Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin when penning the Declaration of Independence must have got " All men are created equal" wrong, because they obviously wouldn't be equal from the very beginning. I'm sure some would like to change that to fit their agenda.

It seems to me that the separation in Gods' creation between those of the children of God and those of the children of the devil would have developed after creation.

If we are given a free ticket to go on a trip to some great place but lay up the ticket and then when called for "All aboard" never use that ticket. Then it is pretty obvious there is two types of children, those that answered the call and those that didn't.

I have no idea if any of this is even anything like what you are looking for here and if not maybe you can point me in the right direction?

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169638
07/10/24 10:03 AM
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Foxpaw, I think Iím more trying to hear a discussion from people who think those gods that it is referring to are something other than created spiritual beings. Whether that be Israel or something else. The Bible seems to make a pretty clear distinction between gods (spiritual beings) and gods made by human hands (household gods). Or maybe Iím trying to see if Iím the last one to the party in belief/understanding that there are many gods and in the Old Testament at least these gods ruled over the different nations other than Israel.

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169664
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Originally Posted by sportsman94
Foxpaw, I think Iím more trying to hear a discussion from people who think those gods that it is referring to are something other than created spiritual beings. Whether that be Israel or something else. The Bible seems to make a pretty clear distinction between gods (spiritual beings) and gods made by human hands (household gods). Or maybe Iím trying to see if Iím the last one to the party in belief/understanding that there are many gods and in the Old Testament at least these gods ruled over the different nations other than Israel.


Elijah and the prophets of Baal had a little match, how did that work out?

I see mythological gods just as that a myth. There probably isn't enough room here to even list them. Then when when one gets done with the gods then there is the goddesses. Probably the god that might have the most influence other than God is self, which gets in the way a lot.

"Just one way to the gate" is a pretty good song. I sang that one night after a guy got up and said mohammed and buda was all the same god as ours just a different way of expressing it. The preacher at the time was just standing there with his hands in his pockets speechless, lol.

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169698
07/10/24 11:52 AM
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The other God today are
Greed
Sex out of marriage
LBGT
Witch craft

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169735
07/10/24 01:13 PM
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I think the Bible makes a pretty clear case that those other gods existed and were not myth.

Guss has listed some very common sins that often seem to go along with worship of the other gods biblically, but they themselves are not the gods that Yahweh was referencing. Not according to how I read it anyways.

If you want an example of these being real entities read the passage of God deciding how he is going to kill Ahab. Also, the ďletís create mankind in our imageĒ of Genesis seems to fit the divine council theory well for me

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169766
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I grew up in a church tradition that read all the passages about other gods in one of two ways. First, other gods are imaginary, i.e. the idols are merely statues that don't represent any real being. Alternatively, and primarily in sermons about such things, other gods are merely metaphors for anything that may have more authority in your life than Yahweh God does. The first view looks like what Foxpaw said. The second looks like where Guss lands. I don't think either of those things are necessarily wrong, but they seem to be a tame version of what the Bible actually says. There are indeed many passages in the Bible that poke fun at idols as being merely wood or stone made with human hands, and placing money or pleasure above God's will is much like idol worship. However, in the Bible's view, idols quite often point to actual beings, and the Bible suggests that worshiping your account balance or physical pleasure may not be that different from worshiping Mamon or Aphrodite. I know it's uncomfortable for a lot of lifelong Christians that haven't heard it discussed before, but it's an idea that is embedded withing the Christian world view and is assumed behind the Bible's words and message. It begins with the creation of heavenly rulers and earthly rulers in Genesis 1 on days 4 and 6, respectively. There are matching earthly and heavenly rebellions in Genesis 3 and 6, respectively, and it goes on and on from there. You can see it in Paul's writings. See 1 Corinthians 8, Ephesians 6, or Colossians 2. It's fascinating, yes, but it is profound as well. Thinking about the state of the world we live in, or the state of my own heart, it is important to see and understand that there are spiritual forces of darkness in the heavenly realms and that they have power here in our world.

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169834
07/10/24 04:10 PM
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I guess to a Satan worshiper, Satan would be a god. That one is real , no myth there!

As far idol worship one can eat food offered to idols with no repercussion to the conscience if he doesn't believe its anything other than a myth. Ishtar in the mythology of the Gilgamesh story only affects me as much as the amount of power I give her. Please don't tell me anyone believes that Enkidu actually threw Ishtars' pet bull into the heavens and that is where Taurus one of the constellations of the zodiac came from? Those reindeer pulling Santa and his sleigh have no more power than I give them in my mind.

While we are so close might as well hit astrology. Do I think astrology has any majestic power. No I do not. Do I think the moon can pull the oceans causing tides, yes but it is purely mechanical as is all the other rotational and gravity fed workings of the universe.
Its no more magic than two magnets same poles repelling or opposites attracting. Nor any more magic than that juice than runs thru the wires in your house that makes the lights work.

The magicians by their arts performed right along with Moses up until the dust turned to lice. Very small things. Sometimes just being thankful for small thinks can increase our faith in the Living God. Fleas in prison camps could prevent molestation of the captives and the want for a horseshoe nail (a small thing) can over throw kingdoms! Just the faith the size of a grain of mustard seed!

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169864
07/10/24 05:01 PM
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So my question from the original verse stands. Who do you think the ďgodsĒ were referring to?

How about in this one?

[Linked Image]


And do you think this exchange took place between God and something powerless unless ahab believed it had power? Or did it actually have the power to do what it said?

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Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169867
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Which dog wins in a dog fight ?

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169870
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In 1 kings 13:18

How would the old man had any power over the young prophet had he only did what God said?

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169887
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Wasn't the "gods" the judges and rules over the people, which were mere men in elevated positions?

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169909
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The judges being the gods is a common view that is used by people who donít take the divine council worldview. I think it may be an example of on earth as it is in heaven. I donít believe that the judges are being referred to as gods in these cases though. Maybe other passages do make that comparison. Why would they ďdie like menĒ if they were just men in high positions?

I think that every nation besides Israel belonged to other gods. Real, spiritual beings. See passages about the prince of Persia and prince of Rome. The nations were divided up among these sons of god at babel.

None of this is my original thoughts. Im not smart enough. But it certainly makes sense to me

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8169949
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I had never heard of the divine council worldview until this thread nor the name Heiser. I've been around a while and don't live a sheltered life.

I believe when new gods are chosen it opens the gates for Satan not only to oppress the Christian; but he also wants to disarm the believer. He wants the believer to lay down the full armor of God that belongs to you in Jesus Christ. Angel worship is close behind new gods.
I say the best way to not get caught up in old slew foots web is to obey God. Disobedience to Him is worse than all the others hazards of foreign gods. Once we take our eyes off Him then fear sets in. I have seen people lock up from fear and become to where they couldn't even move.
Sin has and is rampant in this land and judgement has and is coming. Once we started turning from God things have snowballed and progressed to where we are. Until we start turning back to God which we can't do if we are distracted by counterfeits things won't change. I've always heard the way to know a counterfeit is to know the real thing!

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8170091
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I don't guess I'm seeing the other "gods" in these passages, especially the second set. I see spirits mentioned, but no gods.

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8170102
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Youíre right. The second set would be who do you say that the sons of God are in deuteronomy 8? Do you believe that refers to Israel? Heavenly beings? Something else?

As for the second one, I should have included one verse back from what I did (1 kings 22:19). It just paints the picture of the divine council and shows that these arenít just powerless beings to me.

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Presumably, at least based on what Iím tracking, psalm 82 is the judgement handed down from God for the mismanagement of the nations given to the sons of God based In Deuteronomy 32.

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8170150
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Even that just points to the heavenly host. To me, these are angelic beings, not other gods. Do they have power? I'm sure they do, but only what is given them by the Father. Satan and his demons have power also. This is really displayed in Revelation with the beast and the antichrist.

I've never heard of this divine council theory myself. I will have to study on the Deuteronomy passage a little more.

Re: Psalm 82:6-8 [Re: sportsman94] #8170279
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Maybe part of the problem here is just semantics. What we're talking about is the heavenly host. We tend to use the word "angel" nowadays. Technically, the term angel (malakh in Hebrew) defines a role, not necessarily a specific type of being. The word means "messenger". So an angel is just a messenger of God, but there are a whole host of spiritual or heavenly beings, and not all of them are messengers. The Hebrew word used in the OT that denotes spiritual beings, or beings that God created to operate in the heavenly realm is "elohim", and that word means "gods". These "gods" were created by the supreme elohim and are supposed to rule under His authority. Many of them do. However, some of these "gods" are in rebellion against their Creator (just like the earthly beings God created). We might call those that are in rebellion demons or false gods, or we have no problem talking about the leader of the rebellion as the satan.

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