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Bees #8215065
09/13/24 11:54 AM
09/13/24 11:54 AM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
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Buck (Zandra)  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
Have any bee keepers on here,especially ones in the north have any experience with "plastic" hives?Pros and cons other than the price?


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215076
09/13/24 12:17 PM
09/13/24 12:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
warrior Offline
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Georgia
The bees don't care.


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Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215080
09/13/24 12:28 PM
09/13/24 12:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Michigan, Alpena County
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1oldforester Offline
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1oldforester  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Michigan, Alpena County
I have had problems getting bees to winter over. The plastic hives do seem to help.

Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215081
09/13/24 12:30 PM
09/13/24 12:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
B61-12 vicinity, MO
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TreedaBlackdog Offline
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TreedaBlackdog  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
B61-12 vicinity, MO
What are some brands of plastic hives? I run all plastic frame/foundations and like them. Just have to clean them up and rewax occasionally after wax moths

Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215086
09/13/24 12:37 PM
09/13/24 12:37 PM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
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Garden,Michigan
Hive IQ,Bee Max,Apimay,there may be others.I hear a lot of good about them,especially for our long winters but don't know anyone who actually uses them personally.They look like they'd last a lifetime but they should at the cost of them.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: 1oldforester] #8215088
09/13/24 12:40 PM
09/13/24 12:40 PM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
Originally Posted by 1oldforester
I have had problems getting bees to winter over. The plastic hives do seem to help.

I have too in the past.The claim is wood hives have an R value of 1,the polystyrene have ratings of 6 to 7.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215118
09/13/24 01:42 PM
09/13/24 01:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Michigan
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BigBlackBirds Offline
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BigBlackBirds  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2016
Michigan
Zero experience with them. I see a few sitting around here and there but can’t tell you first hand plus or minus of them

We’ve had bees in state for many generations but nothing above the general vicinity of 45th parallel so can’t give any specifics for farther north. As a real broad brush statement, healthy bees in southern part of state aren’t much impacted by temps as far as it killing them. There are exceptions but I consider wind to be harder on them in the cold—-good example is wintering just off Lake Michigan shoreline. Bees that typically succumb to cold itself more often than not went into winter on a very small/insufficient cluster where not enough heat is generated or they become isolated on empty comb and are unable to get themselves to nearby food (even one frame away) in cold. Bees are way more likely to die from diseases and starvation that weren’t addressed by beekeeper

I’m just old and stubborn at this point as I don’t practice wrapping or insulating hives. However I have experimented plenty with both over decades and can point to advantages of doing it so there’s definitely some upside to be considered. In my case normally have way more than enough colonies going into winter that potential gains aren’t worth effort expended in wrapping or insulating. I would guess that those plastic/foam hives are actually better at staying warm and wind proof. Perhaps good investment in north if you have limited colony count and want to do everything to help them. Just not my personal thing.

Keep in mind that the equipment is more of a secondary consideration in this overall equation. Successful northern wintering amounts to entering late fall with enough healthy winter bees and adequate stores to sustain them to spring. Bees that perish in cold likely do so from not enough healthy winter bees. They probably didn’t make enough in late August thru September to have ample population to last until spring and that was almost always because they were overrun with either tracheal or varroa to begin with. That’s very first thing to deal with if you want to be successful. The second part concerning Adequate stores can look really different from beekeeper to beekeeper. I tend to run bees that have genes from colder climates to begin with. They naturally have smaller clusters and are more inclined to environmentally regulated. Meaning they shut down in fall and are slow to start off in spring all of which requires less stores for winter. But I can winter a southern style bee that’s primarily carrying italian style traits by giving them three deeps of honey for winter. Id think the higher R value hive body would benefit in that specific situation. I know adding a simple layer of insulation on top of the hive reduces honey consumption thru winter. If you are experiencing starvation over the winter , insulation might be something to consider either in foam on top or with plastic hive

Re: Bees [Re: BigBlackBirds] #8215185
09/13/24 04:29 PM
09/13/24 04:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
Originally Posted by BigBlackBirds
Zero experience with them. I see a few sitting around here and there but can’t tell you first hand plus or minus of them

We’ve had bees in state for many generations but nothing above the general vicinity of 45th parallel so can’t give any specifics for farther north. As a real broad brush statement, healthy bees in southern part of state aren’t much impacted by temps as far as it killing them. There are exceptions but I consider wind to be harder on them in the cold—-good example is wintering just off Lake Michigan shoreline. Bees that typically succumb to cold itself more often than not went into winter on a very small/insufficient cluster where not enough heat is generated or they become isolated on empty comb and are unable to get themselves to nearby food (even one frame away) in cold. Bees are way more likely to die from diseases and starvation that weren’t addressed by beekeeper

I’m just old and stubborn at this point as I don’t practice wrapping or insulating hives. However I have experimented plenty with both over decades and can point to advantages of doing it so there’s definitely some upside to be considered. In my case normally have way more than enough colonies going into winter that potential gains aren’t worth effort expended in wrapping or insulating. I would guess that those plastic/foam hives are actually better at staying warm and wind proof. Perhaps good investment in north if you have limited colony count and want to do everything to help them. Just not my personal thing.

Keep in mind that the equipment is more of a secondary consideration in this overall equation. Successful northern wintering amounts to entering late fall with enough healthy winter bees and adequate stores to sustain them to spring. Bees that perish in cold likely do so from not enough healthy winter bees. They probably didn’t make enough in late August thru September to have ample population to last until spring and that was almost always because they were overrun with either tracheal or varroa to begin with. That’s very first thing to deal with if you want to be successful. The second part concerning Adequate stores can look really different from beekeeper to beekeeper. I tend to run bees that have genes from colder climates to begin with. They naturally have smaller clusters and are more inclined to environmentally regulated. Meaning they shut down in fall and are slow to start off in spring all of which requires less stores for winter. But I can winter a southern style bee that’s primarily carrying italian style traits by giving them three deeps of honey for winter. Id think the higher R value hive body would benefit in that specific situation. I know adding a simple layer of insulation on top of the hive reduces honey consumption thru winter. If you are experiencing starvation over the winter , insulation might be something to consider either in foam on top or with plastic hive



THIS^^^^^^^^

While I don't have a winter worth worrying about and really can't weigh in on plastic vs wood in cold climates I can say that one constant is always absolute no mater where you overwinter and that constant is your bees' health.

Strong healthy bees with ample stores make it through winter the rest either don't or come through in such poor shape as to be worthless.

And I'll add this. We've been keeping bees for roughly 5000 years now and in spite incremental changes in equipment we've yet to find the perfect hive. There's no magic beans to beekeeping.


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Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215233
09/13/24 06:28 PM
09/13/24 06:28 PM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
B
Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
trapper
Buck (Zandra)  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
There may be no magic beans,I didn't see anybody looking for them here,but technology can improve on and increase the odds of over wintering in the far north.A short growing season and honey flow doesn't leave a lot of room for error.Just trying to stack as many odds in my favor that I can.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215294
09/13/24 08:06 PM
09/13/24 08:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
I've never kept bees so take this for what it's worth.

I remove trees full time, everyday. When we find healthy hives they're always in hollow trees that have a substantial amount of wood left, I assumed this is because it provides more insulation value than trees that have less wood to provide insulation

Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215301
09/13/24 08:11 PM
09/13/24 08:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
ontario, canada
O
old243 Offline
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old243  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2019
ontario, canada
We treat for verroa, several times once the honey supers come off, With smoke treatment Then I add sugar water if needed, Add newspaper on top of frames and 10 pound of white sugar on each hive . About February, May have to add more sugar if needed. We have insulated covers, that go on about November , for the winter. This has been working fairly well. I think wind , is a factor as well. Our bees are hivebound till at least april. old243

Re: Bees [Re: old243] #8215346
09/13/24 09:09 PM
09/13/24 09:09 PM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
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Buck (Zandra)  Offline OP
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Garden,Michigan
Originally Posted by old243
We treat for verroa, several times once the honey supers come off, With smoke treatment Then I add sugar water if needed, Add newspaper on top of frames and 10 pound of white sugar on each hive . About February, May have to add more sugar if needed. We have insulated covers, that go on about November , for the winter. This has been working fairly well. I think wind , is a factor as well. Our bees are hivebound till at least april. old243

We have wind chills that can go -20 to -30 below at times,not saying that's A constant but it does happen.I'm thinking seriously about those insulated wraps for my wooden hives this winter,seriously thinking about the polystrene hives for next springs nucs.One thing I really like about them there doesn't seem to be a need to winterize them with wrap of any kind.In a normal winter,if there is such a thing,our hives are pretty much hive bound until April too.

Last edited by Buck (Zandra); 09/13/24 09:11 PM.

Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: Donnersurvivor] #8215352
09/13/24 09:14 PM
09/13/24 09:14 PM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
B
Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
trapper
Buck (Zandra)  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
I've never kept bees so take this for what it's worth.

I remove trees full time, everyday. When we find healthy hives they're always in hollow trees that have a substantial amount of wood left, I assumed this is because it provides more insulation value than trees that have less wood to provide insulation

Makes sense.Bees,for being an insect,are amazing.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215607
09/14/24 01:00 PM
09/14/24 01:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Michigan
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BigBlackBirds Offline
trapper
BigBlackBirds  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2016
Michigan
Buck
I had to look up Garden MI. I'm picturing that as pretty rough winter compared to what us trolls have down here. Just a couple of general thoughts that might help you----

Look into what Old243 wrote. That style of Canadian beekeeping likely makes sense in your area. The modern commercial guys up there often work around indoor wintering using both singles and intense water management practices but long before that was the norm on large scale operations the Canadians had some good practices for wintering and they often utilized insulation and wind breaking. If you havent searched prior, take a look at the University of Guelph. I consider them to be quite knowledgeable concerning bees and some of the info they have published over the years is likely very applicable to the UP.

Secondly, if you ever get the opportunity to get ahold of some Canadian stock you might want to jump on it. Not saying its perfect or that other bees are bad but it often exhibits traits that you may find useful to make beekeeping easier in your location. Sometime in the 1998-2001 time frame the michigan beekeepers association had a joint summer bee meeting with the guys over in Canada. I ended up with around 20 breeder queens from there and the following summer spent some time touring a couple of operations up there. Any time I'm asked what are the best bees I always say the best I've had over all the years for the region where I keep and how I keep was some of the stock from Canada. I used the breeders for providing material to graft queens cells and open mated them primarily but the MI bee cooperative used some of those drones for insemination to cross to the untreated survivor stock which was being maintained here in MI at the time. A good % of those lines ended up going to the USDA a little later to be incorporated into what had been previously known as SMR and would be released as VSH.


 

Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215742
09/14/24 06:03 PM
09/14/24 06:03 PM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
B
Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
trapper
Buck (Zandra)  Offline OP
trapper
B

Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
Ill look into it.My bees this year came from stock raised in Newberry,which is further north than me,not far from Lake Superior.He's been raising them now for years and they have a reputation as being pretty hardy.These were nucs,I've pretty much given up on package bees which are shipped up.here from California.Very hit and miss,I have successfully wintered them but the ratio of successes to failures was not good.Ill look for the info on the university,also,I have found YouTube to be a wealth of information related to cold weather bees.Thanks for the information.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215746
09/14/24 06:06 PM
09/14/24 06:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
warrior Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
Originally Posted by Buck (Zandra)
Ill look into it.My bees this year came from stock raised in Newberry,which is further north than me,not far from Lake Superior.He's been raising them now for years and they have a reputation as being pretty hardy.These were nucs,I've pretty much given up on package bees which are shipped up.here from California.Very hit and miss,I have successfully wintered them but the ratio of successes to failures was not good.Ill look for the info on the university,also,I have found YouTube to be a wealth of information related to cold weather bees.Thanks for the information.


JMO, but locally adapted stock is the way to go no matter where you are. That's why I like to keep a good bit of feral stock in mine.


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Re: Bees [Re: warrior] #8215822
09/14/24 08:26 PM
09/14/24 08:26 PM
Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
B
Buck (Zandra) Offline OP
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Buck (Zandra)  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Garden,Michigan
Yep,things have opened up for us here the last few years,used to be we didn't have much of a choice and what was offered was trucked here from southern states or California.Now we got local keepers raising their own for themselves and for sale,nucs and queens.When I started I always questioned why we were trying to raise California bees in our climate,with harsh winters.Things are definitely looking up.

Last edited by Buck (Zandra); 09/14/24 08:27 PM.

Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215873
09/14/24 09:20 PM
09/14/24 09:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Michigan
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BigBlackBirds Offline
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Joined: Oct 2016
Michigan
Hardest part of queen work down here is dealing with drone sources. With 100k colonies leaving almonds every spring and arriving here for the summer grind it gets tough to find spots where you arent getting some overlap with those pollination colonies. Id think its a little easier on that front up there. Not that many years ago only a handful of bigger outfits operated up there but I've heard that too has changed in recent years as things got saturated down here. Do you happen to know if the UP is still the big producer of birdsfoot trefoil seeds for US? Decades ago a beekeeper named Ray Buell, he was the largest guy in state at time, use to cross the bridge every summer to go to pollination for it. I thought out in the middle of UP but not really sure. Just remember him telling stories of going across the bridge and extracting trefoil honey which has a unique smell

Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215889
09/14/24 09:40 PM
09/14/24 09:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
ontario, canada
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old243 Offline
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ontario, canada
Just finished taking the last of our honey off today. Quite pleased with the results. We still have open weather , and the goldenrod and aster seems to be still flowing. Will leave the rest of the flow for the bees. We just have 6 hives ,now hope to winter at least 4 , to start next year. Mostly a hobby , for myself and my daughter. We have also gone , to all 8 frame boxes . Winter in 2 deep boxes. We have bought imported queens , but usually able to raise our own, start nucs . old243

Re: Bees [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #8215895
09/14/24 09:43 PM
09/14/24 09:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
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Georgia
I've often thought a good area for queen rearing if controlling the drones is your goal would be southwest Alabama in the pinebelt.
Alabama in its infinite wisdom still has a no comb law. Nothing live on comb or anything that ever touched a bee or honey allowed to enter the state. As a result they killed the once thriving bee industry they were trying to protect. There are no large operations in the state and southwest Alabama is a bee desert of plantation pine.

But you would have to start totally from scratch and build your stocks from queens brought in in cages.


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