Re: Debate
[Re: NorthwesternYote]
#8401150
05/10/25 06:53 AM
05/10/25 06:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
Giant Sage
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
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Every single statement the Bible makes is true and has been proven true. If you are saying the Genesis account of Creation is wrong than you are saying the entire Bible is wrong too. Like I said earlier, find one lie or false statement in the Bible. Just so you know, you’re going to have some trouble finding one. There are TWO stories of creation in Genesis. In the first story of creation, God creates the land animals before He creates man. Genesis 1:25-27 In the second story of creation, God creates man first and then He creates the animals and brings them before the man to name them. Genesis 2:19-20 They can't both be the literal truth; they contradict each other. So which one is false? I don't believe Genesis 2:19 is saying God recreated the animals. It's a story of how he had brought the animals that had been created to Adam. It's a matter of fact type of story. Not changing the order of things. Genesis 2:19 does not give an actual time-line of when God formed the animals out of the earth. That time has already been established.
Christ is King
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Re: Debate
[Re: NorthwesternYote]
#8401272
05/10/25 12:27 PM
05/10/25 12:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2024
North Pole, Alaska
Husky
OP
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2024
North Pole, Alaska
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Every single statement the Bible makes is true and has been proven true. If you are saying the Genesis account of Creation is wrong than you are saying the entire Bible is wrong too. Like I said earlier, find one lie or false statement in the Bible. Just so you know, you’re going to have some trouble finding one. There are TWO stories of creation in Genesis. In the first story of creation, God creates the land animals before He creates man. Genesis 1:25-27 In the second story of creation, God creates man first and then He creates the animals and brings them before the man to name them. Genesis 2:19-20 They can't both be the literal truth; they contradict each other. So which one is false? I think Giant Sage did an excellent job explaining this question.
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Re: Debate
[Re: Giant Sage]
#8401352
05/10/25 05:19 PM
05/10/25 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2024
IL
NorthwesternYote
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trapper
Joined: Jul 2024
IL
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I don't believe Genesis 2:19 is saying God recreated the animals. It's a story of how he had brought the animals that had been created to Adam. It's a matter of fact type of story. Not changing the order of things. Genesis 2:19 does not give an actual time-line of when God formed the animals out of the earth. That time has already been established.
That's a fanciful interpretation. The Hebrew is not using the pluperfect (perfect past tense) form of the verb to form, but instead the simple past. I.e., in consequence to God's observation in Genesis 2:18 that the man should not be alone, Genesis 2:19 follows: "So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals..." Whereas the pluperfect would state: "So the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals..." God observed that it is not good that THE man (that He created) should be alone, and then out of the ground he formed the animals to bring before the man for him to name. A plain reading of the text based on the original Hebrew suggests an ordered sequence of events. Is your interpretation forbidden? No, but it involves a bit of extra hand-waving to reconcile Genesis 1 with Genesis 2. A pluperfect verb would have been a strong indication that the animals had already been created, but that's not what the author used. But there are other reasons to suggest that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two different stories of creation. For one, they use two different words for God. In Genesis 1, the name Elohim is used, whereas in Genesis 2 YHWH used. It's just a simpler explanation that these are two different stories. Two stories are better than one: more wisdom, more lessons.
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Re: Debate
[Re: NorthwesternYote]
#8401366
05/10/25 05:36 PM
05/10/25 05:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
Giant Sage
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
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I don't believe Genesis 2:19 is saying God recreated the animals. It's a story of how he had brought the animals that had been created to Adam. It's a matter of fact type of story. Not changing the order of things. Genesis 2:19 does not give an actual time-line of when God formed the animals out of the earth. That time has already been established.
That's a fanciful interpretation. The Hebrew is not using the pluperfect (perfect past tense) form of the verb to form, but instead the simple past. I.e., in consequence to God's observation in Genesis 2:18 that the man should not be alone, Genesis 2:19 follows: "So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals..." Whereas the pluperfect would state: "So the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals..." God observed that it is not good that THE man (that He created) should be alone, and then out of the ground he formed the animals to bring before the man for him to name. A plain reading of the text based on the original Hebrew suggests an ordered sequence of events. Is your interpretation forbidden? No, but it involves a bit of extra hand-waving to reconcile Genesis 1 with Genesis 2. A pluperfect verb would have been a strong indication that the animals had already been created, but that's not what the author used. But there are other reasons to suggest that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two different stories of creation. For one, they use two different words for God. In Genesis 1, the name Elohim is used, whereas in Genesis 2 YHWH used. It's just a simpler explanation that these are two different stories. Two stories are better than one: more wisdom, more lessons. Thanks for the lesson. Verbs and all that English jargon were not my best subject. And I know next to nothing about Hebrew.
Christ is King
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Re: Debate
[Re: NorthwesternYote]
#8401367
05/10/25 05:36 PM
05/10/25 05:36 PM
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Joined: May 2016
Southern Illinois
Foxpaw
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trapper
Joined: May 2016
Southern Illinois
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I don't believe Genesis 2:19 is saying God recreated the animals. It's a story of how he had brought the animals that had been created to Adam. It's a matter of fact type of story. Not changing the order of things. Genesis 2:19 does not give an actual time-line of when God formed the animals out of the earth. That time has already been established.
That's a fanciful interpretation. The Hebrew is not using the pluperfect (perfect past tense) form of the verb to form, but instead the simple past. I.e., in consequence to God's observation in Genesis 2:18 that the man should not be alone, Genesis 2:19 follows: "So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals..." Whereas the pluperfect would state: "So the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals..." God observed that it is not good that THE man (that He created) should be alone, and then out of the ground he formed the animals to bring before the man for him to name. A plain reading of the text based on the original Hebrew suggests an ordered sequence of events. Is your interpretation forbidden? No, but it involves a bit of extra hand-waving to reconcile Genesis 1 with Genesis 2. A pluperfect verb would have been a strong indication that the animals had already been created, but that's not what the author used. But there are other reasons to suggest that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two different stories of creation. For one, they use two different words for God. In Genesis 1, the name Elohim is used, whereas in Genesis 2 YHWH used. It's just a simpler explanation that these are two different stories. Two stories are better than one: more wisdom, more lessons. I agree and I have seen people argue the differences in the 4 gospels. When they get desperate they say Matthew was a cheaten tax collector and his account is no good. If 4 witnesses was to see a wreck some would find fault if there account does not all match exactly. Myself if they matched exactly then I would be suspicious they made it up between themselves.
Last edited by Foxpaw; 05/10/25 05:38 PM.
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Re: Debate
[Re: Foxpaw]
#8401392
05/10/25 06:10 PM
05/10/25 06:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
Giant Sage
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
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Foxpaw, Multiple witnesses are always better. I'm not sure how much of Luke and Mark's gospel writing is 1st hand . Matthew and John being the only Apostles of the 4 gospels. In Mark's recording of the olivet discourse. John was the only Apostolic gospel writer that seemed to be a 1st hand witnessesof the olivet discourse. ![[Linked Image]](https://trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2025/05/full-49774-257503-20250510_154929_resized.jpg) And John's gospel doesn't even have the olivet discourse. I believe John's vision in Revelation gives his version of the olivet discourse. And I believe John gospel very well may have been written after the book of Revelation. This could possibly be why there is no account of the olivet discourse in John's gospel.
Christ is King
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Re: Debate
[Re: wetdog]
#8401582
05/11/25 04:32 AM
05/11/25 04:32 AM
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Joined: Dec 2024
North Pole, Alaska
Husky
OP
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2024
North Pole, Alaska
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Husky can you give a timeline of the 6000 year old earth How long ago was the flood When were the pyramids built When did Moses part the Red Sea
I’ll have to get back to you on that one after I do a little research.
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Re: Debate
[Re: Foxpaw]
#8401583
05/11/25 04:38 AM
05/11/25 04:38 AM
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Joined: Dec 2024
North Pole, Alaska
Husky
OP
trapper
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2024
North Pole, Alaska
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We have had some of the New Earthers pop in and out of church several times. The ones that I've known actually don't believe that the earth is only 6,000 yrs old. They believe is was created in 6000 yrs. and then starting with the questions of the timeline that Wetdog brought up there is another 4000 years. Which makes the earth 10,000 years old. Now here is the confusing part, Since God rested at the end of creation (6 days), when the Millennial comes then they pick up the 7th day which God is resting and that makes the 1000 yrs = the 7th day of rest.
The ones that I have known have decided that is the only way to beat evolution. They prove the earth is young and there simply isn't a time frame to fit evolution. They always keep one preoccupied with there agenda and never mention "Ye must be born again".
Maybe Husky can straiten me out on the 1000 yr millennial = the 7th day. I can't be confused anymore than what I am. I’m confused about all that too! But what I can say is that the earth wasn’t created in 6,000 years. The Bible clearly says He made the earth in six days. If God created the world over millions of years, there would have been death before the Fall—hardly the definition of a “very good” creation. If the days of creation are really geologic ages of millions of years, then the gospel message is undermined at its foundation because it puts death, disease, thorns, and suffering before the Fall.
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Re: Debate
[Re: Husky]
#8401602
05/11/25 06:28 AM
05/11/25 06:28 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30
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Joined: May 2011
Oakland, MS
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We have had some of the New Earthers pop in and out of church several times. The ones that I've known actually don't believe that the earth is only 6,000 yrs old. They believe is was created in 6000 yrs. and then starting with the questions of the timeline that Wetdog brought up there is another 4000 years. Which makes the earth 10,000 years old. Now here is the confusing part, Since God rested at the end of creation (6 days), when the Millennial comes then they pick up the 7th day which God is resting and that makes the 1000 yrs = the 7th day of rest.
The ones that I have known have decided that is the only way to beat evolution. They prove the earth is young and there simply isn't a time frame to fit evolution. They always keep one preoccupied with there agenda and never mention "Ye must be born again".
Maybe Husky can straiten me out on the 1000 yr millennial = the 7th day. I can't be confused anymore than what I am. I’m confused about all that too! But what I can say is that the earth wasn’t created in 6,000 years. The Bible clearly says He made the earth in six days. If God created the world over millions of years, there would have been death before the Fall—hardly the definition of a “very good” creation. If the days of creation are really geologic ages of millions of years, then the gospel message is undermined at its foundation because it puts death, disease, thorns, and suffering before the Fall. I don't wanna pick on you too awful much, cos I know it's your birthday and hope you have a great one!! But what is the fall you're referencing? Eve eating the apple?
Proudly banned from the NTA.
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Re: Debate
[Re: Husky]
#8401609
05/11/25 07:15 AM
05/11/25 07:15 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30
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trapper
Joined: May 2011
Oakland, MS
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Yoyetrapper30, I’m not sure how I would do since I’m not the most knowledgeable person on Creation, but I would love to give it a shot with White17. Then why dontcha? Give it back to him! Can you make HIM think??
Proudly banned from the NTA.
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Re: Debate
[Re: Giant Sage]
#8401610
05/11/25 07:17 AM
05/11/25 07:17 AM
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Joined: May 2016
Southern Illinois
Foxpaw
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trapper
Joined: May 2016
Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw, Multiple witnesses are always better. I'm not sure how much of Luke and Mark's gospel writing is 1st hand . Matthew and John being the only Apostles of the 4 gospels. In Mark's recording of the olivet discourse. John was the only Apostolic gospel writer that seemed to be a 1st hand witnessesof the olivet discourse. ![[Linked Image]](https://trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2025/05/full-49774-257503-20250510_154929_resized.jpg) And John's gospel doesn't even have the olivet discourse. I believe John's vision in Revelation gives his version of the olivet discourse. And I believe John gospel very well may have been written after the book of Revelation. This could possibly be why there is no account of the olivet discourse in John's gospel. So if this was played out in todays court Lukes and Marks testimony would be thrown out for hearsay? Looks like if it was determined their story wasn't inspired both gospels would have been have pitched in the trash with the other 75 or so books that made their way there?
Last edited by Foxpaw; 05/11/25 07:18 AM.
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Re: Debate
[Re: Husky]
#8401635
05/11/25 08:23 AM
05/11/25 08:23 AM
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Joined: Dec 2024
AR
J Staton
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Joined: Dec 2024
AR
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For believers, what is the issue with the young earth theology? Do you believe God couldn't do it that way? Same question could be asked of the young earther's. Is "God created" not enough?
Last edited by J Staton; 05/11/25 08:25 AM.
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Re: Debate
[Re: J Staton]
#8401644
05/11/25 09:00 AM
05/11/25 09:00 AM
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Joined: May 2016
Southern Illinois
Foxpaw
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trapper
Joined: May 2016
Southern Illinois
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For believers, what is the issue with the young earth theology? Do you believe God couldn't do it that way? Same question could be asked of the young earther's. Is "God created" not enough? I think a lot of it is the fear that if everything is made just as it is, then that opens the door for the predestination theology that its predetermined who goes to Heaven. And the flip side of that is that those who not are predestined to Heaven are predestined to Hades. If some are created to go one place and the others created for the other then "all men are not created equal" and free choice has no place!
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Re: Debate
[Re: Foxpaw]
#8401688
05/11/25 10:53 AM
05/11/25 10:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
Giant Sage
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2017
Wy
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Foxpaw, Does a writer have to be a first hand witness to be inspired? Did Moses witness the events of Genesis? Or did he witness his own birth. Isn't the Holy spirit the teacher, and where inspiration comes from? In court a lawyer not only argues for the case of a witness, the court generally encourages a litigator. And character witnesses build the strength of one's case. Even if they aren't first hand. Just food for thought.
Christ is King
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