25 yards:

So... I've never been to a shooting range, except for like 8 years ago at my hunter's safety class. So on our property I can only shoot safely out to about 50 yards. But I heard that if you zero a .243 Win. at 25 yards your maximum point blank range is out to about 300 yards. Any truth to that? Also, is my group in the pic decent? It's hitting a little left I guess but for some reason I always shoot a little left lol, I don't know why.

I'm not planning on shooting a deer at 300 yards, 150-200 would be my maximum for around here

Is the target a normal sized, 9" by 11" piece of paper? If so, you're shooting plenty good enough to effectively and humanely kill a deer.

Keith

I think you need to tighten that up a bit Cowboy. If your group is 1.5" at 25 yards your gonna be 9" at 150 yards.
Should be able to do a little better than that. Make sure you have a good rest and practice a little.

Zim

Agree with Zim. Lots tighter. Like 3 holes touching at 25 yards. Haven't you got a place to shoot out to 100 yards? Then you'd know.

that calculation is approximate

currently you are clear to shoot to 50 yards with a group like that at 25

it has the most to do with height over bore for the calculation

you can run a calculation on the Hornady ballistics calculator and get an idea , but you need to up your shooting game to go past 50 right now.

https://www.hornady.com/4dof

was that group shot standing unsupported or from a bench , prone, across the hood of a truck , ect...

as ZIM pointed out that group doubles at 50 again at 75 and so on

so say we call that 1.5 inches it might be 1.25 but for sake of calculation 1.5

it is 3 inches at 50 yards , 6 inches at 100 yards and 9 inches at 150 yards.

if that was you standing and cutting loose 3 rounds quickly it is one thing but if that was you doing your best rested shooting it is quite another.

If I was a betting man I would say you developed you a flinch if that was rested shooting.

Ball Dummy time
here is the deal , your dad , mom , any trusted safe person is going to take your rifle , they are going to load it place the safety on and lay it back down on the bench or hand it to you carefully , you are handing oof a loaded gun treat it like such , the load will either be a live round or one of your previously fired cases or just empty, I like to use dummy rounds as sometimes a student can hear a empty chamber close vs a round , they do this with their back turned to you so you can not see , you keep your ears on you do not want to know what is in the chamber or not.

also start this off with several dry fires where you make sure not to lie to yourself , did your sights stay on the target through the click...

when you can dry fire keeping sights on target then start ball dummy

they mix it up , you should not be able to guess what is coming next , I like to do around 4-5 dummy's to one ball , it saves ammo and you have no idea when it is coming
they watch you while you shoot , they are watching for the flinch when you pull the trigger on the dummy


anticipating recoil or jerking the trigger is a low left response in right handed shooters.

your job is to identify when you flinch , then you need to learn to just let the recoil hit you , say it doesn't hurt really , just let it hit , force yourself not to flinch , if it is a hard recoiling gun it can be hard after a while. If I don't mind it don't matter is good but at some point your body will say I mind if you are really beating yourself up


PM me I don't recall what part of WI you are in but we might be able to get you to a range if you are not too far away and get a real confirmed zero to 200 yards.

At 50 yds and in yes.
CC I know u dont have much experience and experience only comes with time so dont take any of my comments wrong but I call it like I see it.
First I would advise you to find someone with good experience to mentor you if nothing else on the shooting thing. The fact that you had to ask, which is good that you did, proves you need someone to help you. Thats a 7" group at a 100 yds which is not good. You say you always shoot left. Adjust the sights. This is why you dont take advise on forums. One guy says your good and your not. Something is wrong. Scope is loose, gun is bad or shooting skill needs work. Never go off what someone tells you about your dope " where your gun will shoot at a given range" you are responsible for shooting it yourself to verify that. There is just as much or more poor advise on the internet as there is good.

Keith what were u thinking

You may be pulling left due to your finger’s position on the trigger. If you use the tip of your finger you will pull slightly left. I like the trigger dead middle between my finger tip and the crease of my 1st knuckle. I found that position gives me a nice clean trigger break.

Another piece of advise, dont take a shot hunting you haven't practiced at . That included the distance and the position. Thats how you know if its good enough.

I agree, it could be much better...at 25 yds they should be covered by a dime, at least...

I agree with the others. Are you using a good solid rest and squeezing the trigger really slow so its basically a surprise when the gun fires?

X2 on Good for you asking for advice on it. You'll be shooting the hair off a gnats butt at 100 yards in no time with some practice.

yes , this , I will say to get cheap practice you can practice the positions with a 22lr and use the 25 yard distance to practice a bunch at home.

then go do a few rounds from your deer gun at the actual distance

standing , rested on a bag like a backpack , kneeling , seated are good ways to practice
if you decide to use shooting sticks add that to your practice.

not a bad idea to set up a 22lr similar to your deer rifle , like same optic

It is 14" by 16"

OK, thank you!

I guess I need to go to a range. I am planning on getting the brush hog and mowing a strip I can use as a range but the tractor is dead right now

Thanks for the info! I was shooting out of one of our elevated deer blinds, from a chair and resting it out the window. .243 doesn't have much recoil but I guess I could still be flinching. I'll have one of my sisters load up my clip with a spent shell/live round mix.

Okay, thanks. I'll work on figuring it out

Thanks, I usually put it right there too, or even closer to the crease of my 1st knuckle

Cool, thanks! Makes sense for sure

sounds good thanks

Not a very good rest, it's a blind we made out of plywood so I was shooting out of a window we cut in it. I should make sure I'm squeezing real slow.

Cool thank you

You just need practice, IMO. Most people aren't born natural shooters. Heck, you're shooting better than some on here that have a lot more experience than you do. But you gotta make sure you do put the practice in, as you owe it to the critters that you're hunting to be sure you are efficient enough to make a clean kill. Just keep shooting.

Thanks. I'm gonna go out and shoot some more right now. The WI youth deer season is tomorrow and Sunday so I guess I'll just make sure to only shoot within 50 yards

Cowboy, I would highly recommend shooting some rimfire at same distance until you are able to tighten up that group and have it centered. I am not trying to deter you but I would not let my kids go hunting when they were starting if they shot groups like that.

If resting on window sill put something soft between it and rifle,
like your hand or rolled up jacket etc.
You're going to be fine.

Wow um okay I guess. Kind of crazy to think that I shot my first deer 5 years ago when I was 10 and at least one deer every year after that and didn't even think about my groups. I always knew my dad wasn't the best shot but he's been hunting deer (and shooting deer) since he was 14 (he's 60 now). So I guess I just figured that if he said I was good to go, I was good to go. I never really asked anybody else's opinion about hunting/shooting until I joined Tman. My parents are getting divorced so dad's only here on the weekends now, but I guess that doesn't matter anyway since he would assume that's a good group. I appreciate you all being honest so thank you. I just don't really know what to think right now...

You didn't say whether you're shooting off hand, kneeling or off a solid bench. Also didn't say if shooting open sights or with a scope. Shooting left could be a lot of things from not being zeroed to trigger control. Previous posters have given you great information.
For group size we also need to know if that included first shot out of a clean cold barrel and which hole it was. All out of a clean and cold barrel?
You really need to spend some time developing muscle memory to tighten that group up or maybe your rifle just doesn't like that particular load. Shooting at 25 yards is fine as long as it's consistent. Math will provide you answers at other distances. With that group size, I would limit the range to animal to 100 yards or less.

The Winchester 95gr Deer Season XP load
with a 25 yd zero, is:
1-1/4 inches high at 50 yards
2-3/4 inches high at 100 yds
3-3/8 inches high at 150 yds ( maximum rise )
0 at 265 yds
2-3/8 inches low at 300 yds
Winchester deer season xp 95gr

Best of luck with your practice and hunting

we have some foam-ish stuff on the sill

Sorry I forgot to mention that. We bought the gun with a Weaver scope so that's what I was using. I'm going to shoot another few rounds and then fill you in

thanks

Use this ballistic calculator.
https://sagecalculator.com/nosler-ballistic-calculator/

I ran some numbers using a typical 95 grain bullet out of a 243. You will be nowhere near zero'd at 300 yards.

I may be sounding like a arse and don’t mean to be, but that is the way I see it. We need to hold each other accountable and help when we can. A sound scoped firearm should produce groups much less than what you showing. This tells me your skills are not yet honed to deliver a humane kill every time. This can easily be fixed be trigger time using inexpensive 22lr. This is what I recommended.

Your ability to kill a deer in the past has no relevance to your future success. You mentioned you never cared about your groups in the past is very telling. I would love to discuss ways to improve, just PM.

Did you have the stock or the barrel resting on the window opening when you took those shots?
Just curious

if you are shooting from an elevated blind run a target out to the max distance you could shoot a deer from that blind safely and shoot that target , sight in for that max , provided it is at or under 200 yards you are golden once you can shoot it well at that distance for everything inside of that.

I ran your numbers on the deer season XP 95gr 243win

I used a 2 inch height over bore , measure yours center of scope bell to center of barrel and let me know what you have and I can adjust

a 1/10 under 200 yards won't matter much but 5/10 will

2 inch height over bore
200 yard zero
.363 bc
3100fps muzzle velocity , that was what the box claimed , often that is out of a 26 inch barrel and you would loose 100fps out of say a 22 inch barrel but close enough for now and under 200 yards.



if I was going to set up to go shoot 200 yards at the 25 yard range I would sight in for 3/4 to 1 inch low at 25 yards I would want to be cutting bullet holes 25 yards but that is me. you want your group centered around the point 7/8 low of where you aim and centered perfect left right

then go to 100 yards take a few you would want to be 1.2 inches high at 100 that should put you zero at 200 and make you solidly on to 250 yards if you are zero at 200 and have a nice group I would shoot 250 without confirming it and expect to be 2.5 inches low which is minute of deer heart

but that means you shoot a 3 inch or smaller group at 200 yards from a rested position before you try for 250

Im curious on your thinking of being good out to a 100yds? The group looks to be bigger than 1.5" at 25 yds so I'm calling it 1.75. Thats a 7 inch group at a 100. By your dope hes 2 3/3 high at 100 so likely chance some shots could be off poa by almost 10". Then figure in his center of group is left what? 1.5? That going to be 6" at a hundred.
My guess if he shot 3 just like that at a hundred he'd be likely to miss a paper plate with at least 2 of those shoots. And hes talking about his max range being 200 yds. Im not beating the kid up as hes young and inexperienced as we all were at some point but we do have a responsibility to ethically harvest animals. A seven inch group at 100yds off a front rest something is bad wrong.

this is why I don't like 25 yard zero other than to put you on paper at 100

a tiny bit off at 25 is inches at 100

and a 1 1/2 inch group at 25 is 6 inches at 100 if it is also 1 1/2 left now it is a 6 inch group 4 inches left that means you could be 7 inches off point of aim.

No you sounded just fine, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make my reply sound so dumb. I am glad you said what you said, and I just was frustrated with myself and it came out in my post so I'm sorry. It wouldn't help anyone if everyone just "sugarcoated" things. I was mad at myself for not thinking about my groups before. And when I mentioned the deer I've killed I was just saying that I can't believe I always thought my shooting was all right when obviously it needs work

Thats a mature take and response cc

OP, disregard the earlier ballistic calculator that I linked to. Use this one. There is some sort of glitch in the earlier one I posted.
https://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator

BTW, most high powered modern rifles when sighted in to be 2 inches high at 100 yards, will be zero'd at 200 yards, and around 10 inches+- at 300. This is a pretty good rule-of-thumb for sighting in a hunting rifle.

These calculations are based on 100 grain zero'd at 100 yards.

We all need work.
Don't let your confidence get blown up.
You know how to shoot deer.
Perfect paper is deferent.

Here's my new 3 shot group @ 25 yds
I remembered to breath and squeeze slowly this time. And I put it in a vice

Oops I should put a coin up next to it

That's a quarter

Whatever you do in the end make sure you can make the shot (the same range and shooting setup) in practice before you take that shot while hunting. And be honest about your abilities and the abilities of your gun. Alot of people aren't.

Much better! Adjust your site just a little right and try a group at 100 or 50 if that's all the room you have. If you can get a group like that at 50 1" low you should be good out to 100 on deer.

I may have just rushed those first few shots I took this morning. I had wanted to shoot it before work so maybe I didn't remember to squeeze the trigger and instead just jerked it.

Remember in hunting situations your under even more pressure

Okay, I'll do that. Thanks

Good point

Okay will do!

Thanks for all the ballistic calculator info, guys!

Adjusted my scope a little and shot 3 times (I made a cross over the holes) and then shot 3 more times (the ones without any markings on them)

At 25 yards still

So, I would need to mow a spot to be able to take a 50 yard shot cuz the longest straight mowed path is just over 25 yards and the weeds are too high for me to shoot anywhere else. If I keep my shots 50 yards or under this weekend do you think I'll be ok? Or should I only shoot out to 25 for now?

I agree , with one change to that statment

an inch low at 25
dead on basically at 50

if that picture was your 50 yard group I would be comfortable with you hunting to 100

it was a rest with a vice so keep working on your shooting

here is a tip and it needs no ammo cost
get right on , close your eyes , take a breath you only count yourself as on at the bottom of a breath cycle lungs empty
when you get back to the bottom of that next breath open your eyes and ask am I on ,(don't quickly move the gun and try and lie to yourself), if you are not move your body till you are on
and repeat

with each breath you should watch the rifle move vertically and return to the same spot at the bottom of the breath. that spot when you close your eyes breath in , breath out , open your eyes as you run out of breath and open your eyes , that point is your NPOA natural point of aim , it is where your body is pointing at a relaxed state

anything that you push to without moving your body is not natural and will not stay well

a good marksman with low recoil can with a spotter for safety lay prone , and aim 1 time , and with eyes closed fire 5 rounds on 5 breaths from a semi auto 22lr and have a nice little group having shot all 5 rounds eyes closed because they are not working against their body

spotters job and they need to be right next to you is to make sure nothing enters your field of fire and you don't leave the berm or target backer. so they stand right over the top of you and call cease fire and put a hand on your shoulder if you need to stop because the range became un safe.

youth season starts tomorrow , you should be ok to 50

forearm

Ok, thanks! I'll try that! That's pretty cool!!

all right, thanks!

…. Go bust one cowboy

I'll try

Just saying buddy I zero in rifles as a bit of a side gig come deer season and , I've seen zero points change a decent t bit from 25yd to 100yd . Most down here have some magic formula . High 50 , low 25 ect.. Sometimes it works perfectly sometimes "supposed" to be at 25 and it's high left at 100yd . Always confirm if and when possible

O an dif you can post a picture of you shooting set up.. pictures is with a thousand words

Yeah for sure. I won't take any shots past 50 yards til I can get to a range and get her really dialed in. What do you mean by shooting set up? Like the blind I shoot out of? Thanks

Good work! Nice practicing!

You'll be ok, stay calm and squeeze
Go shoot one

… and always remember…

https://www.facebook.com/MossyOak/videos/tk-mike-mossy-oak-go/575124080624642/

thanks!

Ok, thank you!

lol

Shooting with a scope without a solid rest and without your eye dead center in the rear lens of the scope, you are wasting ammo.
Here's why. Its called parallax. All scopes without adjustable objective lens have the parallax-free point at a specific yardage distance.
At that specific distance from the target, your eye does not need to be perfectly centered in the scope to hit where you are aiming.
At 25 yards, you WILL need to have your eye perfectly centered or you will have loose groups such as what you are experiencing.
I recommend that you shoot 3 careful shots at 100 yards and if they are tight, adjust the scope and confirm with another 3 short group.
Many a new shooter which I have instructed suffered from not knowing about how parallax works. One of them actually hugged me once they found out what was killing their 25 yard groups.

Cowboy, you have to shoot how you hunt. Off a rest or standing offf hand, kneeling, prone it all matters. So shoot groups the way you hunt. And you may want to shoot 5 shot groups to id the fliers ( human errors).
First shot out of a clean barrel never hit the same as out of a fouled barrel.
Consistency improves with a properly broken in barrel.

You don't need sniper quality groups to hunt deer; but, know your range limitations. If you're shooting at 25 yds, at 100 yds those groups open up times 4. ( 1" at 25 yds equals 4" at 100 yds.) That is without the effects of adrenaline on the hunter. The vital area of a deer is often referred to a the size of a paper plate, about 9 inches.

Practice and muscle memory development is cheaper using a 22lr.

Sooooo many variables.

Osky