Tatiana's marten/sable hybrid caught my interest. Since we/she doesn't want to distract from the "unusual thread I started this.
So, if there is interbreeding between species are they really 2 distinct species? The wolf/dog crosses my mind. Are wolves really a distinct species?
Tatiana, withe the Sable being such a high value fur and Russia having an almost monopoly on them, wouldn't the managers be worried about diluting the sable quality?

I really should read the other thread titles before posting, I just posted on the other thread suggesting she start one on this subject.

I'll try, but I'll have to find and take some pictures to illustrate. These things require lots of pictures

Inbreeding, is not two different species breeding. Two different species breeding is called hybridization. I don't know what the pros and cons are of high breed marten.

interbreeding is a synonym of hybridization, a slightly wider term in fact because it can refer to the mixing all types of distinct groups, including those below the species level (e.g. interbreeding of two diffrent subspecies is not hybridization). It's not the same as inbreeding. Inbreeding produces Somalians.

I will try to share what I know. This is a picture from last year taken by a good acquaintance who lives near Uvat, on the Irtysh river, in a hybridization hotspot. The mixes there are almost 50/50 sable/marten. Where I live now it's mostly marten, and where I used to live before was mostly sable with an occasional mixed blood individual.
This batch is a grader's nightmare. Some are phenotypically 100% marten, some are 100% sable, and lots of very obvious inbetweens of different kinds. Currently, sable is almost twice as expensive as marten so it makes a difference. Takes a trained eye though. I'll try to explain but it will take a few separate posts I guess.

Thanks Tatiana. Looking forward to more info. Hopefully you're getting some enjoyment out of this!! Why are there marten in North America but not sable?

Your marten have little in common, fur-wise, with what we call marten here.
I'd say your marten are closer to our sable, by their fur structure, pigments, throat patch and some other features. I'll post pictures. I think I'll need to start with a post on different martens to make sure we're on the same page.

In fact, in the fur garment industry, American marten fur is called "kanadskiy sobol" (Canadian sable), but it's a marketing trick.

Following this post. Pretty interesting stuff. Look forward to more of your posts and pics Tatiana!!

Thank you for sharing all that knowledge.

Regardless of what its called, that's a beautiful table of fur.

Thank you for your info and photos, Tatiana.

Trying to absorb your info, and looking at that photo, here are my observations.... I see what looks like sable , shorter tails amidst marten with longer tails. To me , the sable bodies seem a bit heftier and wider . I see some with wider , maybe sable type bodies with a tail that is in between the shorter length of the sable and the longer tail of marten. Ex, the right side row, third up from the front, the dark one. Almost nose to nose in front of that one, the left side, third up , is what seems to be the sable with its short, stubby bushy tail.

Some look to have thicker fur on the tails, over thinner , but just as long as the tails of marten. Also those tails look to be rounded more evenly on the ends, as sables over the more slim, pointed fur of marten. My guess, possibly a cross too ?

I cannot tell by colour, after seeing the piles of every colour and bling or no bling of T4Ever's great marten . So I give up on that one

I sure wish our Jack could be in on this subject. That would be icing on the cake . He would love this.

I'm guessing that those pictured in Tatiana's photo that have the large pale throat patches (some even reaching all the way to the back side) are marten.
Here's a couple from my collection, origins going left to right;
1) marten from northern Sweden, large throat patch, much coarser fur also.
2) Russian sable, almost imperceptible throat patch
3,4,5) marten from mainland SE Alaska, hardly any throat patch

I've caught marten here with no throat patch, clear up to a throat patch that runs halfway down their belly. While orange is the most common color of throat patches here, I've also caught white and bright yellow.

Marten colors are a whole different subject. Even the throat patch, or rather, what gives it its color, is a separate mystery. I've been trying to explore the color variability in martens closely for the past decade or so. It's interesting to read your guesses and observations but I think it's better if I don't start overexplaining that photo above, it's just one picture after all

like I said I'll start with a post on all martens, just for context, and then the two species of interest (the pine marten and the sable) and then the hybrids and what's interesting about them. Maybe write something about other marten species, or about the colors, too, eventually, if I have the energy, including various mutations and aberrations. I'll try to avoid genetics or any creation/intelligent design/evolution disputes because it's not the point, but some insignts into the genetics could be helpful to explain why things are the way they are.

i'm sorry I'm so slow.

No Pine Marten in North America.
As for throat patches and color variations, in northern Southeast Alaska, I have taken marten that are so dark they appear almost black, far darker than a Hershey candy bar. Also a few that look almost grey. Then the pales that have an orange coloration with very dark guard hair, to no dark guard hairs at all, but simply orange.
Throat patches on my marten can run from off-white to brilliant orange, and as bearcat2 notes, from a few specks all the way from to chin to mid-belly.
I wish I had taken more photos but will dig out some that I have. A real pain, as nearly all my trapline pictures are either on my phone or in one of many SD cards.

^^^^
AV, have you ever trapped any marten off of Admiralty Island?
Many years ago I trapped some out of Hawk Inlet. They were the oddest marten I have ever caught, large, extremely coarse fur, and orange throat patches; uncharacteristic for SE in my experience.
I heard that those marten were transplanted there from M. Caurina stock; I assume from Washington. Not sure if that is true.

I found a few on my phone from a few years ago but will have to pull out some SD cards for throat patch photos.

That was a very dark marten for my line, though I will look for one I got that was even darker.

This one, next to a mink, was kind of a mottled dark. I got a high percentage of that color on my main line.

When I did get a pale, they were typically like this one.

The white marten in this poor picture was taken by a retired ADFG biologist, Neil Barten, outside Fairbanks.

Then there are weird muskrats. In the Klamath Basin, in southern Oregon east of the Cascades, muskrats were not native to the landscape. They were introduced first in the 1920's, and the first introductions were of course by a couple of enterprising ranchers. The original stocks came from Minto Flats area outside of Fairbanks! They were valued for their very dark pelts. However, they were pretty small compared to their Louisiana cousins, and as such, another batch was brought in from there.
When the fur boom went bust, like so many other fur farms that went under, the rats were turned loose.
The Basin is perfect habitat for the rats and they flourished, to the chagrin of some here that rely on ditches and dikes to manipulate the water here.
Enter me, and a biologist that steered me to a fellow with an 800 acre rat problem. This is only the 2nd year I have trapped the property, and while I try to at least put a dent in his problems, he is adjacent to an even bigger, (roughly 1 mile by 12 mile), problem. A perfectly un-disturbed rat marsh heaven that is completely un-molested.
These three rats were taken the same day within 50 yards of each other.

I have not trapped them, but knew several trappers that did. And yes, they were indeed transplants. I have seen many of them, and agree, they are inferior to mainland marten. First time I saw pelts from Admiralty I was in the ADFG office to seal some pelts, including marten and there was a guy sealing marten himself, (I later became good friends with him). When I laid my marten down, he was shocked at the difference. After he left, I asked the Bio doing the sealing if he thought those marten belonging to the other trapper were taken out of season, as in summer?
"No, those were Admiralty marten."
I didn't know the difference until then.

Why do you say No Pine Marten in NA, AV?

because there are none

You mean, technically, right. I think Google said ours are martes Americana. What is the difference?

Pine marten (Martes martes) are from the Europe and adjacent regions to the east.

Not just technically. Your marten are a separate species. Two species

I've posted about it, over the years, but I noticed that many people in the trapping community have a vague idea about marten varieties globally, so I guess we need an overview biology lesson. I'll steal some pictures from the internet to illustrate.


Martens (the genus Martes) are a part of the weasel family Mustelidae, and specifically, of the lineage called Guloninae. It also includes the wolverine (Gulo gulo), the fisher (Pekania pennanti), and the tayra (Eyra barbara), as well as a bunch of fossil species. This grouping is based on how closely they are all related genetically (and it is supported by morphology and fossil records), regardless of whether it's a product of evolution or adaptations of intelligent design, it's not the point
I won't go into detail about the genetic relationships between the species of martens now. Let's just assume they are all legit, although some are more closely related/genetically similar than others (the concept of "species" itself is disputable and blurry and it's best to accept that it's not absolute but just conventional, and to apply common sense. The rest is bureaucracy/philosophy/politics).


Currently, the genus Martes inlcudes 8 species, or 6 if you kick the big slender tropical "martens" out. The fisher also used to be considered amarten but now has a genus of its own, Pekania, fully deserved.



the pine marten (Martes martes) the type species of the genus. The baum marten is a synonym used in the fur industry. Not very variable and easy to recognize normally. Western populations seem to be a bit darker. I'll describe it in more detail in a separate post;




the sable (Martes zibellina), distributed from the Ural mountains to Japan in the east and Mongolia and China in the south. Very variable in color but recognizable. Also deserves a separate post;
this one is a typical Tobol sable from West Siberia

this one is from the Barguzinskiy nature reserve



the stone marten (Martes foina), a temperate to warm climate creature with snow-white undercoat and a u-shaped throat patch. There is a distinct separate population in the east (the Himalayas, China, probably Mongolia, and the Altai mountains, where it's very rare), which is different enough to be treated as a separate species.




the Japanese marten (Martes melampus), a species distributed on Hokkaido, Honshu and some southern islands. It's almost black with orange spots in the summer, but turns bright orange to almost white in the winter.




The variety on the southern islands is quite distinct and is probably also a good species, but there is very little information on them.







The Japanese marten shouldn't be confused with the Japanese sable, which is a pale-colored subspecies of the sable distributed on the Hokkaido, probably the same as the sable on the Kurils and the native sable of the Sakhalin islands. It's pretty amusing but many animals get pale in Japan, local species and subspecies. The wild boar, brown bears, badgers, the Japanese marten, the Japanese sable are all cute and yellow.






the American marten (Martes americana), distributed on your continent from West to East. Also very variable, like the sable. Its facial expression is cuter than that of its Eurasian counterparts, sable always look angry and pine marten look drunk or mildly retarded.

took these pics from iNat, they're taken in Winnipeg







the Pacific marten (Martes caurina), with which I don't have any personal experience with, but supposedly it has different (coarser?) fur, smaller face with cute big eyes, wider skull (= more developed vestibular apparatus) and longer tail (and a bigger throat patch generally), i.e. overall more adapted to life spent jumping among tall trees, branches and sticky sap in the relatively mild, wet, temperate climate along the Pacific coast, and chasing squirrels;





Then there is also the yellow-throated marten (Martes flavigula) and the Nilgiri marten (Martes gwatkinsii) and possibly another undescribed form or two on the big islands in the Indian ocean, but I don't consider them true martens. They are genetically distinct and very different from the true martens, and are predominantly tropical in distribution, and most likely deserve a genus of their own (it will probably be named Flavigula).









just to add to the confusion:

these pictures don't show the fur quality well, I'll have to take pictures of skins, to show how different the fur quality is, in different species.

Pine Marten are found in Europe, Western Asia, Western Siberia, and I think Kazakhstan.

Exactly, and they are progressing eastwards very rapidly. A trapper from Kemerovo region to the east of me who traps in the Kuznetsk Alatau mountains posted a picture of what looks like a pure marten a few weeks ago, he had never even seen them before. They are also moving south, and in the past 2-3 years, sable trappers have been catching marten and hybrids near the Belukha mountain already. Game wardens in my region and in the Altaiskiy Kray are worried about the negative impact of marten on grouse, hares and roe deer, plus they are deinitely killing off smaller mustelids. We did not even have them a few years ago and now their tracks are the most common predator tracks in many places, including biotopes which are NOT supposed to have any marten or sable, according to oldschool experts - rather open areas with no conifers whatsoever.

this is what productive marten bush looks like here. Pictures from this week/today.

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread it's very interesting and enjoyable to see and learn about all the various differences of these species .

Yes Sharon , I totally agree with you that Jack would of enjoyed this a great deal !

I look forward to reading and learning more thank you all in advance !

Because of the Barguzin sable, exactly 109 YEARS AGO, on January 11, 1917 (i.e. December 29, 1916, old style), the BARGUZIN NATURE RESERVE WAS CREATED.

Great photos and descriptions, Tatiana. We seem to have the same humor with our descriptions of marten facial expressions -angry, drunk or mildly retarded . I see a lot of things in that same way

Years ago, in a lovely discussion with Jack , we were on one of many subjects about his studies of marten. I'm so glad I saved this one. At the time, I was trying to understand his findings with them. Listening to him discuss this and other "official related" subjects in a circle of fellow biologists , trappers and scientists at a get-together at his place, I was transfixed in the things they shared.

I thought this share, from Jack, would be very welcomed in this neat discussion.

I so appreciated learning more about his description of the Yellow Throated Marten. Bedsides their very different physique, what I'd love to see in videos are their behavior as a pack animal , even hunting deer. That would be a force to deal with carefully as a human found on the trail by a group of them, I would imagine...

Thank you for your info and photos, Tatiana. Besides wolverine, all marten have been a favorite of mine in art and knowledge.

Below : part of Jack's discussion with me.

and it was the first nature reserve to be established in Russia, which marked the beginning of nature conservation as such in our country.
There is a nature photographer based in the Barguzinskiy nature reserve, Artur Murzakhanov. You can explore his photos on his livejournal page, a lot of them are of the Barguzin sable.

https://artur-murzahan.livejournal.com/

Speaking of the pine marten expansion,


https://snowmobile.ru/forum/index.php?threads/171501/page-78#post-6969414

I figured I'd add a link to this post of an "invasive"/newcomer pine marten in what's Kuznetsk sable country. The Kuznetsk sable is a distinct local variety of the Yenisei/Sayan subspecies (distributed across Central Siberia, roughly along the Yenisei river basin). It is treated as a separate subspecies sometimes, that tends to be more vividly yellow and light than most other subspecies/forms (not this particular individual though), and has a bigger heart than average, because it inhabits relatively high elevations despite some variability due to the reintroduction programs (those programs favored dark, silky-furred individuals from around the lake Baikal and the Barguzin river in particular for most areas, and from the river Vitim, for colder climates).

I took the liberty to copy these pictures here (originally posted by the user Sdelano Rukami) so that they don't get lost, because the sable trapping thread on that snowmobile forum has gotten deleted several times already due to greenies reporting "inhumane" posts with legholds to moderators Note that that trapper used the same sable boards for both skins, the difference is all due the different tail length, guard hair length, and fur structure (note the hysterical loooong hair on the skirt, a trademark pine marten feature).



typical pine marten fur without the more distinct zones and darker guard hair tips of the sable fur, and guard hair appear "hollow" with irregular dull white sheen, like hair badly burnt with peroxide, while sable guard hair is more shiny, almost brilliant-reflective in some varieties and individuals (look at the photo of the Barguzin sable in my post above, it's actually pretty dark, just insanely glossy).




I'll add my own sable/marten pictures later, after I explain the differences and the ramifications of hybridization

Sharon sez: "We seem to have the same humor with our descriptions of marten facial expressions -angry, drunk or mildly retarded."

Oh, you are talking about marten/sable?

I thought you were describing most of us people on T-man...!

Pete

I was reminded of you yesterday, Pete, I saw a fun logging competition sporting event, based in Wisconsin . Cross-cut saw, chainsaw speed cookie cutting, pole stand chopping, axe round cutting. It was fun to see. The worlds champs were competing.

Anyway , back to hybrids . Tatiana , fur with that high gloss sheen is the best , to me.

T4Ever explained that gloss when I was choosing the marten I wanted for my hat.

I'm still in "school" when I attempt to capture that gloss sheen effect on fur I do in my art.

hopefully Sir T4E be kind enough to find time to teach me too someday if I behave well

Speaking of gloss, the Barguzin sable is not the glossiest subspecies. The Kamchatkan sable (M.z. kamtschadalica) may be a bit coarser due to slightly thicker hair but it shines like a disco ball (it is a large, robust subspecies, interesting in that there have not been any reintroduction-related admixtures to it, on the opposite, it was used to repopulate parts of Chukotka and Magadan oblast. The Barguzin subspecies (M. z. princeps) is also very shiny, but has silkier fur.
The few American marten skins I've seen, along with some "Canadian sable" fur coats, produce the impression that the fur quality is a bit "mink-like" compared to the softest varieties of sable, i.e. the fur is more springy, and there is less difference in the length of down and guard hair, and sable is not necessarily heavier. Sable typically have long, soft, very shiny guard hair, and the underfur is softer. I think the American marten looks and performs better in large garments, because it keeps shape so much better, and the soft, tender sable looks best in trims, scarves, hoods, etc.


maybe you can spot the intruders? They're mixed with sable from Kamchatka, the Barguzin river, upper Yenisei river, middle Podkamennaya Tunguska river, Sakhalin and Yamal peninsula




Compared to both the sable and American marten, pine marten fur is coarser, more wooly (think fox tail), and the guard hair is sometimes illegally long (I'll try to remember to take a picture of a super-hairy little female I caught this season). There are no pine marten in these pictures.

What nice photos. The gloss on them are wonderful. I see a tail length difference among them. Along with colour tone differences. I do see a more wooly one , the top photo, the second from left, middle, the dark ones, the far right, the third from the right side, and perhaps the last one to the left. The bottom photo, the left . I know you mentioned there are no pine marten in those shots, I'm just seeing a bit thicker underfur on the ones I mentioned.
All of them are beautiful.

I had T4Ever explain glossy in the market values , because I saw his marten were amazing piles of fur that were all good quality. All I did was ask

In the top photo I would say the second from the left and possibly the far right. In the middle photo I would pick the middle dark one and the rightmost dark one, in the bottom photo I can't tell much difference between the two.

To me, the bottom photo: The one on the left looks very similar to the marten I caught on my main line, fur-wise. Big color difference, of course.

Well done, comrades %)

I took the pictures above just to show the gloss difference, nevertheless:

first picture:
1. Minusinsk, upper Yenisei river, southern Krasnoyarsk Krai (= central Siberia)
2. not a sable,
3. Burnyi, Podkamenaya Tunguska river, northern Krasnoyarsk Krai
4. Sakhalin island (not a pure representative of the local subspecies, a mixture of introduced stock with the local, Japanese-like sable, very short-haired but they get even more short-haired there)

second picture:
1. Kamchatka peninsula, big male,
2. middle Barguzin river near lake Baikal (the horizontal one above, too),
3. not a sable,
4. Kamchatka, a paler female,
5... not sable

third picture
1. not a sable
2. Urengoi, Pur river, Yamal peninsula (West Siberia, roughly on the Polar circle), female, pale but not exceptional for the local population, which is an excellent illustration of the Bergmann rule.



it's probably because they are very closely related

Those non-sable are Alaskan marten, T4E gave me some of his beautiful furs a while ago to play with and satisfy my curiosity, and we have some guesses why this particular population is so insanely variable and some of the top mammalian genomics experts we discussed it with agree with these guesses. Hopefully when/if the current global fireworks and Monopoly games wind down a bit (if ever), and our leaders remember about fundamental science, we'll finally be able to tell with certainty (it's a last mile issue, the tissue samples are at the Smithsonian awaiting genetic sequencing, but it's a bit pricey).

a few pictures of overall fur texture differences, without going into detail:

sable from central Yakutia (Aldan river, Okhotskiy Perevoz village), a relatively pale one for that area, and an American marten


the same American marten with a HAIRY female pine marten that I mentioned above (not tanned, so she's having a bad hair day)


big male pine marten, heavily furred but overall typical,
the same hairy little female pine marten,
and a very average pale female sable, all from my little trapline this year:

I love all the colours, Tatiana. And I definitely see the fur texture difference. As an artist lost in the beauty of fur texture, I see all this instantly. Even the more subtle fur textures.

I told T4Ever, after he sent me several pictures of his shop literally filled with huge piles of marten of every colour, and many other animals along the walls, that I could sit on the floor and admire and play with every hide all day. I am certain that he would have you and I put to good work skinning them as he brings them in ! I wouldnt be allowed much time to play.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and photos. By the way-none of your marten ever looks drunk, angry or a bit "touched"... retarded

Notice how the white ones are never truly snow-white, (and neither is the throat patch in regular ones), there's always a hint of yellow even on the palest canaries. I think they're technically albinos. I have no confirmation yet but looks like some mustelids have a very unusual bright yellow/orange pigment which is produced not in the pigment cells, but somewhere else. So even when their melanocytes go crazy or lazy or missing (which would produce white patches/piebaldism/albinism in most mammals), in marten, these areas without eumelanins/phaeomelanins remain yellowish. Toes on "white-toed" marten are usually yellowish, the same goes for the white tail tips. The throat patch color (also a melanin-less spot) is a window into how much of this mystery pigment a specific individual produces.


this one was auctioned at the Ruspushnina banquet in December, I think...




some are more vividly orange, but (if our guess about this pigment is correct) it only reflects how much of this pigment the animal has, the overall mechanism is the same (albinism due to the total tack or total malfunction of melanocytes), if there is no brownish/blackish coloration anywhere on the pelt.

We don't have many muskrats around where I live but there is some variation. I don't know how prevalent these red ones are, I only catch a few as beaver bycatch and I thought the majority were the regular agouti color, like barn rats.

That otter is happy to be visiting with you, Tatiana

Oh yes, T4E's boat. I think I would rather be the cook !

Speaking on canaries, he has trapped some very orange ones also. One of those I have as a nice contrast on my marten hat , in the back. The three very glossy tails show up very well on top of it.