Been reading a little on antler growth and how available food and water affects it. I’m a bit puzzled regarding the photos below. I’m guessing these two are in the area so food and water are equally available. I believe the issue is genetics. If that is the case harvesting buck B would be a priority over A.

Thoughts?


A


B

Genetics. Try to get whichever one you want.

Genetics are predominant determinant of antler size. Food/nutrition certainly play a part, but much smaller part.... my 2 cents

Following. I know absolutely nothing about deer genetics or antlers... less than nothing and honestly don't care very much either but...... my assessment would have been opposite of yours, hobbie, so I am curious to see what the guys in the know have to say.....

I'm with you genetics.

I'm no deer farmer but I would think genetics would play the biggest factor.

It's genetics, nutrition and age. In no particular order.

I think that is obvious.

The question, as far as I am concerned is..........WHICH deer to cull and which to leave to promote better genetics????

Genetics is front runner. If not then why doesn’t every deer feeding in the same field Drinking from the same water The same age have similar brow tines?

Did some one say brow tines ?

Antler growth is result of an intersection of genetic propensity and nutrition. In other words, “genetics loads the gun, but nutrition pulls the trigger".

Pedicles, formed in buck fawns at 4-6 months old, have specialized tissue containing the genetic blueprint which orchestrates antler growth throughout the deer's life.

Which is most important? Genetics is the greatest limiting factor...as no matter how much you feed an ordinary buck, you just end up with a fat ordinary buck.

From my white paper Genetic Improvement in White-tailed Deer

And 50% of those chromosomes come from the doe....which we know nothing about. The doe's father could have been a 2 year old spike.....

As a hunter, you cannot "manage" a deer herd's genetics. So, shooting a large bodied, but small racked buck ain't gonna do it. Won't change nothing in your area.....other than one less mouth for the habitat to feed.

And, unless you are wealthy (and control a large land area) you can't change the nutritional plane of your local deer. You are stuck with what the soil provides. That feeder, food plot, mineral site is mostly for killing ONLY....not growing big deer. Don't be fooled into thinking artifical feed or minerals are anything more for a free range deer that travels miles across the country-side weekly. They just concentrate the local deer for you to take their pic, watch them, or kill them.

Age is the only aspect a hunter has a little control over to improve antler size. And you do this by controlling your trigger finger and hoping your neighbor does too. Older deer generally have larger antlers, with near 100% max at about 6.5 years....based on what the soils in your area has historically and can produce. The saying that everyone hates works here...."It is what it is." If you think you can change this in any way, other than letting a young buck walk for another year or two, YOU ARE WRONG!

For those that have wondered why the half year is added to a deer's age: deer are born in the spring and killed by hunters in the fall, so 6 months is tacked on to most deer ages for harvest records management.

In our research, it has become increasingly evident that does contribute largely to antler development in buck fawns (maybe as much as 60%), not only through genetic propensity, but equally important maternal care values. This is the basis for recent term "super does" in improvement programs.

Because does & fawns usually stay local to their birthplace, it is possible to track annual progeny success via cameras at feeders. Does that consistently produce undesirable bucks should be identified and removed...I have numerous clients that successfully use this culling tactic in both high & low fence scenarios. This combined with culling of undesirable bucks before maturity can yield noticeable results.

Of course, you must have control of harvest criteria in your management area or have like-minded neighbors.

IWM,
I don't mean to come across as a smart a$$, but it doesn't take research to know that the female contributes at least 50% to a male offspring's genetic traits.

Also, "culling" to improve antlers is a myth outside of high fences where both the female and male lineage is known. And there has been some studies where even in high fence operations culling based on undesirable antler characteristics did not produce noticeable results.

It simply is a 100% waste of time to kill certain bucks (or does) in a free range environment and think you accomplished anything related to genetics of that deer population.

one thing I believe in that can hurt antler growth is drought. Bucks around here have less mass across the board. Don't get started about EHD during those years .Lived it seen it... Plus age lets the buck get to his potential, but when he's 2.5 and a basket 8 he's still spreading his genes around. 2.5 year old bucks do most of the breeding . First more of them.. Second a mature deer will lock down on one doe while the teenagers are doing the nasty everywhere they can..

SW,

Re-read my post...I said our research showed as much as a 60% contribution by the doe...50/50 is already understood.

I see you are an expert at trophy antler production as well as CWD in whitetails...I can tell by the pics of the bucks you post:)

Disregarding my 45 years as a deer biologist, I yield to your self-anointed expertise.

My guess is deer a is older than deer b.
Age, genetics and good nutrition is what makes big antlers
I dont believe you can manage genetics in free range deer
Biggest thing most bucks lack is age
Most of the time when people think they are managing for big buck they think the nutrition they are providing for the deer is really helping but whats helping the most is they just stop shooting young bucks
Around here most of the time when someone kills a "management" buck it just means they didn't want to or couldn't hold out for a bigger buck.

People or animals it takes a combo of both to get an exceptional specimen. The best genetics will not hit their potential if they are malnourished and have poor conditions. The best nutrition and conditions in the world will only go as far as the genetics will allow. May produce the most exceptional runt that guy can be but still a runt.

This is crazy to argue over, go to any well managed deer ranch and one can see for them selves the difference in age and the wealth of antler growth when managed food and water and breeding are available, they all show that food and breeding are the most important thing, these ranches do culling to have the best antler development always for those wishing a giant as well as selling the stock to others for breeding, I don't ever believe its mostly on the female side, females can pass on great health and stamina will give them that !

You can see the result quickly with smaller and younger deer in herds with antlers as large as five or six year old deer !

I also think deer A is older than B. The genetics have to be there for good nutrition to expose it in inches and it needs age to maximize, I also agree with others that in a wild herd you cannot improve it by culling, just as you cant control what breeds what. It has always seemed to me to be better antlers in a wetter year as well.

Our normal average rainfall for the first 7 months is about 26 inches, we are currently at 19, so we are a little behind.