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Starting- NWCO age? #474054
12/20/07 11:43 PM
12/20/07 11:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,151
Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
B
Bob Evans,-CWCP Offline OP
trapper
Bob Evans,-CWCP  Offline OP
trapper
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,151
Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
I've attended a few nwco seminars including the wct annuals.
So my question is most operators are 40-60 yrs old and the new guys coming in don't seem to last?What's up with this?
bob evans cwcp


Bird,live honey Bee,Unique wildlife problems SOLVED.
Serving the great state of New York

livetrappingbymatt.net
Re: NWCO age? [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #474211
12/21/07 02:46 AM
12/21/07 02:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,173
Mt. Olive, IL
R
Ron Scheller Offline
trapper
Ron Scheller  Offline
trapper
R

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,173
Mt. Olive, IL
At the risk of offending some of the new guys, I'll throw out my guesses.

1 - They jump in full-time before they have themselves established. Lack of income will cause a change of jobs quite rapidly!

2 - Poor business-building method. Primary cause is starting with the wrong outlook or idea. Typical for new folks to "assume" pricing below the competition will keep them growing. It will keep them BUSY (for a little while) but not growing.

3 - Related to #2... Not knowing how to figure costs. This includes all the things that they are probably not familiar with, as most have only worked for someone else in a job. Tools, equipment, liability insurance, ongoing vehicle maintenance and expenses, office expenses, advertising, building "warranty work" into pricing structures, taxes, health insurance, and then still providing for your entire family. (I probably missed about 20 other things, but those who survive the first 2 years will figure them out)

4 - Relating to #1.... Not having enough money put back to live on for a year or 2 while you build the business (for those who jump in full-time). I don't care how much your gross income is during year 1 and 2, you will not get ANY of it if you are investing back into the business as you should be.

5 - Treating it like a hobby (fur-trapping style) and not as a business. Yes, it can be fun, but it's not a "no-pressure" type of fun. The fun begins after you bust your @ss for a few years.

6 - Attempting to survive as a WCO in an area lacking adequate population (human). You're not going to make it in rural settings. Those people have guns and aren't afraid to kill critters.

7 - Trying to survive as a "trapper" (catching only) and not providing exclusion work and other income-producing services. Habitat mods, deck screening, attic vent screening, soffit work, chimney caps, and more.

8 - Directly relating to #7... poor reputation due to just capturing animals instead of solving the problem. More critters return. This is NOT job security. Job security is when your clients never have to call you again (pertaining to animals in structures). Yes, moles, beavers and muskrats may be long-term work.

9 - Inability to KNOW that you have worked for a year and are still losing money. (Lack of business plan, or lack of accounting skills or service)

10 - Failure to recognize what is making you money and what is a "drag" on your business. Drop the anchor services and move ahead.


Ron Scheller
www.thebatguy.com
Re: NWCO age? [Re: Ron Scheller] #474521
12/21/07 10:50 AM
12/21/07 10:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Vinke Offline
trapper
Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Anouther great post there "Bat man" \:\)

One thing I see in a lot of new businesses.........Living outside your means........
Wife with a new car
new truck
Big payment book...........Then slow time hit......as they do every year


Re: NWCO age? [Re: Vinke] #474972
12/21/07 02:42 PM
12/21/07 02:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 509
Okanagan Valley BC Canada
P
Pete Offline
trapper
Pete  Offline
trapper
P

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 509
Okanagan Valley BC Canada
Great Post Ron and a good observation Robert. Just as an add on to what you have written. Over the years we have all seen folks that are all gung ho to get into the business then fizzle out and disappear. Often leaving us to clean up the aftermath.
My advise to those that are thinking of getting into the business is learn to trap first. This will give you a chance to learn your trade and to begin to aquire the equipment that you are going to need.
Know your target species. Read, go on line talk to others in the field, in short educate yourself.
Strive to be the best in your field. Set standards for yourself that are ethical, professional and humain.
Demonstrate respect. Respect for the wildlife that we capture and the enviroment that it is in, Respect for people that we deal with and above all respect for yourself.
Cheers
Pete

Re: NWCO age? [Re: Pete] #475117
12/21/07 03:57 PM
12/21/07 03:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,566
Central Ohio
LT GREY Offline
trapper
LT GREY  Offline
trapper

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,566
Central Ohio
There not mean enough like us old timers!

Re: NWCO age? [Re: LT GREY] #475212
12/21/07 04:46 PM
12/21/07 04:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,151
Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
B
Bob Evans,-CWCP Offline OP
trapper
Bob Evans,-CWCP  Offline OP
trapper
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,151
Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
Lt,you're a hoot! No I think it is todays work ethic combined with Ron's very good obsevation.I've seen lots of young guys get the itch and fade into the night. Everyone things the big ticket jobs,BAT,Bird to name a few will make them rich! They don't know how many work hours during the seson it takes too get thru the slow times?
We all talk about our good jobs maybe we need to talk about a few of those jobs from **LL we get from time too time?
bob evans cwcp


Bird,live honey Bee,Unique wildlife problems SOLVED.
Serving the great state of New York

livetrappingbymatt.net
Re: NWCO age? [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #475439
12/21/07 05:44 PM
12/21/07 05:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 129
Ohio
M
Mike Dwyer Offline
trapper
Mike Dwyer  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 129
Ohio
Ron and Vinke both make good points. More basic however is the lack of meaningful entry barriers. Anybody can set up shop no matter how unskilled or unprepared they are. How many posts have we all seen from folks who get their permit before they have a clue about what is involved in the business? They all think "easy money" without any thought at all as to whether or not they they have what it takes to be sucessful.

Of course there will be those who will chime in about how it was when we all started, how none of us knew what were were doing either and we should give the newbies and 'wanna just try it part-timers' a break. That was then, this is now.

As Pete said, we all end up cleaning up their mess. That would be no big deal if it ended there but it seldom does. This constant supply of messes that need to be cleaned up and out-of-service phone numbers relfect poorly on us all. We all suffer the consequences of negative public opinion caused by the here today gone tomorrow wannabe operators. It holds the industry back and impacts the ability of us all to make the living we are truly entitled to.

Wildlife control is a business, much more so than it was 20 years ago. While everyone who wants to be a wildlife control operator can presently be one that doesn't change the fact that not everyone who can be one should be one. We need to recognize that. Yes, the market place will eventually weed them out. But meanwhile the endless steam of jackasses who make us all look bad continues. We can do better.

Mandatory liability insurance, more stringent permitting requirements and realistic commercial license fees would go a long way toward making sure those who want to be a wildlife control operator have the forethought, the means, the knowledge and the motivation to succeed.


Mike Dwyer, President
Critter Control, Inc.
"Protecting People, Property & Wildlife"

Discover 'Animal Facts,' have fun with 'Animal Trivia,' and send 'Critter Cards' FREE at http://www.crittercontrol.com

Re: NWCO age? [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #475931
12/21/07 09:30 PM
12/21/07 09:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 18
NY
A
Arrow 1 Offline
trapper
Arrow 1  Offline
trapper
A

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 18
NY
Hey now Bob!! I'm 33 and been at it full-time since age 24. I started my first part-time business when I was in my sophmore year of high school. I have to say this is before NY had an age limit on getting the license. Did you see my profile in this months NYSWMA newsletter? It gives you a little more insight into my past and present. I'm half joking here though. I have been fur trapping since age 12 and put in my time learning the business. I will agree it takes a tremendous amount of dedication, drive and knowhow to be successful. See you at the March seminar.

Craig Conway

Re: NWCO age? [Re: Arrow 1] #476010
12/21/07 10:19 PM
12/21/07 10:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,555
SW Pa
B
Bob Jameson Offline
trapper
Bob Jameson  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,555
SW Pa
Nice artic fox Lt Grey. I caught me a few of them in the late 60's in Alaska.

Re: NWCO age? [Re: Bob Jameson] #476188
12/22/07 12:45 AM
12/22/07 12:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,151
Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
B
Bob Evans,-CWCP Offline OP
trapper
Bob Evans,-CWCP  Offline OP
trapper
B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,151
Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
Arrow1
Nice to hear from you.My son also started at an early age 12 did local calls on a bike no less.Lots 0f things have changed in the industry and legally.Insurance is now a must,with the voume of jobs comes liability!
Mike barriers aren't needed just good work ethics and a sound business scense and good training. A good course on salesmenship with the ability to sell ones self wouldn't hurt.
bob evans cwcp


Bird,live honey Bee,Unique wildlife problems SOLVED.
Serving the great state of New York

livetrappingbymatt.net
Re: NWCO age? [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #476463
12/22/07 10:12 AM
12/22/07 10:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Vinke Offline
trapper
Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Washington State just went the "other" way..........The WSTA got control of the program for instruction and testing..........Now the permits are being handed out like soup in the soup kitchen.....I hope it does not bit us in the Butt..........


Re: NWCO age? [Re: Vinke] #476484
12/22/07 10:30 AM
12/22/07 10:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,566
Central Ohio
LT GREY Offline
trapper
LT GREY  Offline
trapper

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,566
Central Ohio
You better correct that spelling Vinke.....if reads as if they already sank their teeth in ya'! ha \:\) Maybe I should move to the Seattle area and we'll own 1/2 of Washington state along the coastline!



I like clam chowder........ \:\)

Re: NWCO age? [Re: LT GREY] #476574
12/22/07 11:26 AM
12/22/07 11:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Vinke Offline
trapper
Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Lt.......we would make one heck of a "Team".........You expertise and my Good looks........... \:\)

Us means>>>>>> WSTA and trapping in general


Re: NWCO age? [Re: Vinke] #477347
12/22/07 07:53 PM
12/22/07 07:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 786
Mineral, Virginia U.S.A.
K
Krustyklimber Offline
trapper
Krustyklimber  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 786
Mineral, Virginia U.S.A.
Vinke,

Permits... what permits?

I certainly don't feel like I was "handed" an NWCO Certification.

But I also know that I didn't learn a single thing relating to actually operating a nuisance control business either.


I sure would like to know where you guys think a new guy is going to learn all that stuff.

You have to have experience, to do the job, but you have to do the job to gain the experience...
That's a serious "catch 22".

I know what the ADC guys in my area have NOT done to help the new guys out, what about the rest of you?
Do any of you DO SOMETHING to help, or do you just complain about "new guys".

As the newest guy around here, I am highly offended by the jist of this thread.

Mike,

I got my NWCO Certification, before I knew what I was going to do with it, for several reasons.

One, I struck while the iron was hot, I didn't want to miss out, and not be able to take the class later on down the road.
Because I had the time, and the chance, I took advantage of it.

Two, I was told that more numbers in the ranks was good for trapping, good for the Trappers Association, and a good thing for me personally (ironically by some of the very same people, who are now complaining about "new guys").

And thirdly, and most important of all, I HAVE TO have that certification to work for someone else.


Making nuisance trapping highly costly won't weed out the stupid, plenty of ignorant people have more dollars than sense.
Financial worth is often a poor representation of character, or just as often, a representation of poor character.

Brilliant example of the have's keeping the have-not's from ever having.

Merry Christmas?

Do you have any kind of clue, as to how greedy y'all look, right now?

Krusty

Re: NWCO age? [Re: Krustyklimber] #477387
12/22/07 08:12 PM
12/22/07 08:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,566
Central Ohio
LT GREY Offline
trapper
LT GREY  Offline
trapper

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,566
Central Ohio
(Well Vinke says he looks handsome....) \:\)
...and you just look like you should have took me up on my offer to give you some of my extra equipment and show you how I used it when I came up to Washington state. But you declined.
Vinke on the otherhand didn't and I sent him all kinds of things and if he was smart...and I believe he is, he used it and took the lure making knowledge I showed him and will do something good with it.

Everyone I visit gets hundreds of dollars of free stuff from me personally.......greedy? Surely you jest!

Re: NWCO age? [Re: LT GREY] #477435
12/22/07 08:34 PM
12/22/07 08:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Vinke Offline
trapper
Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Greedy???????????????????????? It is good business sense!!! Nothing more nothing less........
You need to get of the pity pot and Cowboy up! None of the comments are directed at you......But they are there for you and I and others to learn what it takes to run a successful business.

As far a handing out Certification (if you want to play word games)I saw many people walk into the room were the instruction was being given,,,,,,Then LEAVE the convention after they had taken the course......NOT WANTING to lean anything about trapping.....OR meet any of the people that make it possible for them to do so...........


Re: NWCO age? [Re: Vinke] #477445
12/22/07 08:39 PM
12/22/07 08:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
Vinke Offline
trapper
Vinke  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,518
WA
I should have stuck with my original statement from long ago, but I thought I would give it a second chance........And I am resorting back to IT...................I'M DONE!!!!!!!!!!!
and good looking Ha! \:\)


Re: NWCO age? [Re: Vinke] #477693
12/22/07 11:02 PM
12/22/07 11:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,457
Central IA
TRapper Offline
trapper
TRapper  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,457
Central IA
29 here, been full time for 3.25 years, my wife has been full time with me for 2 years, we have a full time employee and have had him 1.5 years. i agree to lose the anchor services and give it all you got for the services that pay well, in our case it is moles, squirrels, and bats.

Re: NWCO age? [Re: Vinke] #477697
12/22/07 11:06 PM
12/22/07 11:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 786
Mineral, Virginia U.S.A.
K
Krustyklimber Offline
trapper
Krustyklimber  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 786
Mineral, Virginia U.S.A.
Well I am sorry if I ruffled some feathers, but I called it how I see it.

I didn't take or mean any of it personally, and don't expect, or want, any pity.

You guys, all of you, just plain confuse me.

In climbing, new guys not knowing what they are doing can be deadly, for the new guy and the "old guy".
We dealt with the problem pro-actively.

It's every climber's duty to teach the new guys, sort of a hardcore apprenticeship program.
If I teach you wrong, I die!

What apprenticeship system does the NWCO industry have in place?

I'm not the one who made things look the way they do, I'm just the one who said "the emperor has no clothes".

If it was important to you guys, you'd do something about it.

Show me, what's being done? What part are any of YOU playing in that?

If you're not part of the solution, maybe you're part of the problem?


If, as a whole, and purposefully, making nuisance trapping too costly for all but the financially well off, like "you guys" already in the game, isn't greedy, what is it?

I never said anyone WAS greedy, I said ideas like this can make you LOOK greedy.

From the outside looking in, this thread didn't seem friendly, at first, it's gone downhill from there.
You knew this might offend "some of us" and now you are busting my chops because I am, and I said so?

Krusty

Re: NWCO age? [Re: Krustyklimber] #477781
12/23/07 12:07 AM
12/23/07 12:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 786
Mineral, Virginia U.S.A.
K
Krustyklimber Offline
trapper
Krustyklimber  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 786
Mineral, Virginia U.S.A.
As to the subject of "Many people", I have some thoughts.

I'd have to double check but I believe it's less than 40% of the people who pass trapper training go on to get a trapping license that year.

Threads like this one are a prime example of why...

With Ron's "Top Ten Reasons You Don't Cut It".

By the time "many people" are armed with some knowledge about what it actually takes just to be a hobby trapper, they realize "it's not for them".
The "problem animal permit" process is likely to scare just as many away from NWCO work.


They might also believe they are in for more of what they have just been through... both the regular trapper training, and the NWCO certification course, are mind numbingly boring.

Less so when presented by the WSTA, but still (based on the materials covered), stale and steeped with boring passages of law, with very little (to no) actual trapping covered.

They might need a nap?


It's also hard for the neophyte to see that anything HAS BEEN SAVED, after spending anywhere from two, to six hours, being told what's NOT legal.


Top that off with the same "us" and "you", that we see played out here, and we have strong grounds for alienation.

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