If you're a fan of Mike Rowe you may embrace his thoughts on higher education...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Lk1KwWEMo

We had the youngest go to Wyotech for 18 months for custom car work he drives a truck today! LOL

Yup, and as a degreed engineer who worked in the nuclear power industry for 33 years before retiring, I still needed skilled craftsmen (and women) to build my house, fix my truck, put in my well and septic, and maintain all the pumps, motors, valves, etc. in the power plant. Those craftsmen had skills I did not have and are an essential component of our economy. We have convinced a generation that all they have to do is get a 4 yr degree and they can immediately have everything their parents spent 20-30 years working their butts off to accumulate.

As a teacher I can tell you he is right on. Tell kids all the time to look seriously at the trades. Good money, affordable to obtain.

Many parents do not want to hear that college for their kid may not be the best option.

I agree that many kids do not belong on a 4 year degree path. Skilled trades would suit them and society much better.

That said, I see nothing wrong with having the 4 year degree....if you can do it without massive debt.....AND a skilled trade.

X2!

I have a 4 yr degree and it has helped me get the position I currently have and is essential for promotions. Having said that I have been constantly encouraging my son to get some sort of tech degree instead of going to a university. He started his first tech class today. Happy dad.

Well said guys, there are many occupations that pay very well without the need for a 4 year degree. That said, there are many occupations that pay very well that require a 4 year or more degree to accomplish said occupation. Not everyone is cut out to be an astronaut but then you see billionaires who dropped out of school and relied on their brilliance to get where they are today.

Zim

I also went to WyoTech for 6 months in 1974-75 for auto mechanics. Used the skills all my life and still do. While there, the kid selling pop and donuts at the snack bar had a 4-yr degree from University of Wyoming.
In the Army, you needed a college degree to get past E-5. That was in 1984.

And...........there are vocations that require licensing that can often times be enhanced by having both the degree and the hands-on experience.

I have the degrees to be both an astronaut and a billionaire but chose to be a homesteader and a trapper. See...........flexibility is enhanced by education !!

Earned a four year degree in Biology from the University of Wisconsin system. Biggest regret was stopping after 4 years. Would've, could've, should've continued on for a masters degree! Ended up serving a 5 year apprenticeship in plumbing and have since earned my Masters Plumbers certification and own a plumbing business! Nobody can take my education away, though!

Chris

Even better, get a business degree, then decide what you want to do. A local dentist got a business degree, then went to dental school. He is a mastermind businessman and very well-healed.

But getting long in the tooth !

Mike Rowe does a good job promoting technical education. I taught building construction technology for 23 years. That is a fancy name for residential carpentry.
When I started we had 42 kids apply for the 32 slots. Over the years I had some outstanding students. Many went on to successful careers in building, and some in plumbing or electrical work. Many went on to two year technical collages, a few went to four year academic schools. I am still in touch with many students.

As time passed it became more and more difficult to fill all technical school programs. We did or close each year but it was a struggle. More and more kids simply do not want to work.
More and more kids are so tied to computers or phones and gaming that they cannot think about working. More and more kids come from families that neither parent works and many do not have any good role models in their life. More and more kids were coming through with emotional baggage and many many with various mental disorders.
Each year over those 23 year it became evident that there was a swing in the dynamics of our population.

I was working in what was a traditional blue collar community when I started. In the time I taught I witnessed at least a dozen manufacturing companies die out and close. When I started there were 6 module home plants within a 20 mile radius. All but one has shut down. Times have changed and not for the better.

During that time in education it was easy to observe the work ethic decline, and grit and or determination almost disappeared in students as a general rule. The problem was not just in technical education, it was a problem through out the academic sections of the school as well.

I still have great hopes for technical education but all educators face a tough row to hoe. Many problems in our schools and in our general population.
I do not mean to sound bitter but I guess I do. It was like watching a slow leak in what used to be a good vessel.

Mac

My son has a 4 year business degree and is now in his second year of law school. He is going to do very well for himself and the way I operate it will be handy to have an attorney in the family.

Zim

NO, NO, NO! Encourage them all to go to a 4 yr school. We need ditch diggers too, the Mexicans may not be around all that much longer.

Screw society and trading yrs of your life for a permission slip to work for some ungrateful thumb.

It's a scam , funneling people through institutions selling over valued pipe dreams .

Some of the dumbest people I know have framed papers on the wall.

I like Mike Rowe.
I agree with what has been stated thus far.

When graduation was near 80-90% of my friends knew they were going college but wasn't sure what they wanted to do. I didn't know what I wanted to do other than what I had been doing up until that point I was either a cook or a butcher. As an apprentice butcher while a Jr in high school I was doing really well. I landed up choosing to not go back for senior year for numerous reasons and got my GED. Few years later I was back cooking and worked with very talented chefs and cooks. I was making $0.50 less hr then another cook with a fancy culinary school under his belt. Eventually I got into health insurance and did well enough to support my family on just my income. I was in positions which a bachelors degree + was required. Had plenty of opportunities to move into upper management roles in other states but ultimately choose not to leave my family in the pursuit of money.

My dad never went to college and was 2nd in command under the owner of a concrete structure plant here. I had a boss who didn't get pass 9th grade and owns 20+ stores in NM and that doesn't include his partner in TX is the same.

All that being said if you have kids that are not sure what they want to do don't make them go to college in pursuit of a paper that might land up being useless.

I suspect that doing away with the draft has contributed to the seemingly directionless drift of young people these days. That mandatory two or three year hiatus from school...and exposure to the real world....helped a lot of people decide what they wanted to pursue.

Forgot to mention... My wife hates when I tell the kids they don't have to go to college if they don't want to.

Some of smartest people that worked for and with me had BS, MS, or PHD degrees. Some of the smartest had High School or GED or a year or 2 of college.
Some of dumbest people that worked for and with me had BS, MS, or PHD degrees. Some of the dumbest had High School or GED or a year or 2 of college.Some of them couldn't scratch their butt with a hay rake.

I have a four year degree. My starting position didnt pay much but I rose quickly within the company, retiring at the top. I was also in the military reserves and got a commission. Retired after 27 years.

Dont have a problem with anyone who does not go to college, but I promise you that without my degree I might have never retired at 55 and been comfortable 20 yeas later. Wife did the same. She has two masters degrees.

What the previous two said. Some good jobs require degrees simple as that. I do see that in the future Mexican labor will put a hurt on manual/skilled labor. It is creeping along. Some of the labor unions really need to be careful as their pay, work, benefits, etc. are so high it is really inviting the cheap Mexican labor to come in.

I was in the Army with a fella from Lawrence KS that had 6 yrs of college. He joined the Army cause his dream was to play in the Army band. Seriously.

I’ve been saying this for 17 years. My wife was the same way, but she’s coming around. I came to the conclusion after about 4 years of guiding guys that had more money then I’ll ever dream of. Every night at the supper table it was the same story!! No one could find good hard working employees, and they would pay big money to find one. A vast majority of the guys with big money where owners of companies like HVAC, trucking lines, and oil supplies etc... really got me to thinking. Most Skilled labor is hard labor and it’s getting harder every day to find young men and women that want to to it.

I dont know how many years my sister in law went to school, but now shes a assistant surgeon. they take out so much a week for her paying it back , my brother works at a sawmill and makes more than her, or bringing home more, she will retire she said before its all payed back ,so i wonder if it was worth it for her. my daughter works at walmart and talks of how hard it is to train the collage kids how to run a cash register.

I went to Universal Technical Institute to be an auto tech right after high school. It was okay, I actually learned more in the field and through other training courses. But it was relatively cheap and I was out in 16 months making money. Ive worked all kinds of jobs, from private shop to chain to dealer and now I'm a mechanic for a police department. I make awesome money now, enough for my wife to stay at home with our five kids. I started out at $8.00 an hour though, that was a little rough. I had a lot of friends in high school that told me to start practicing saying "would you like fries with that?" when they learned I wasn't going to the local university with them. I don't talk to any of them anymore, but from what I understand, not a single one of them is working a job that requires a college degree.

One of the finacial channels had a story about how CEO's salary now avaerages 145 times the average yearly wages of their company's hourly workers. That could be one reason many job openings have so few people being trained to fill them.
Later, the same show had an "expert" express concern that a wage increase for "marginal" employees can hurt the profit margins of the company.

I know many young men who have done well for themselves by being trained by the labor unions. I have written letters of recomendation for many of them. The kids graduating from high school with strong math skills and an interest in going to work are in huge demand for well paying jobs.

We do many kids a disservice by making them believe that college is their best option. But we do a bigger disservice to kids if we give them the impression that their high school education should not be taken seriously. A kid who does well in high school can always dumb it down and take a low paying job, but a kid who fails, and allows himself to miss out, can easily be stuck near the bottom.

College is not for everyone. I agree that most kids who go to college with no specific career goals are wasting there time and somebody's money, whether theirs or their parents.

For smart, focused, ambitious kids (yes, they do still exist), a four-year degree can be a very valuable investment. I can also see the flip side; America needs more skilled tradesmen. I've worked in residential construction and remodeling most of my life. The really good tradesmen are retiring and there's no one to replace them. The construction industry is in dire need of tradesmen!

I have three daughters, all adults now. Career goals were discussed many times. College was always an option I was in favor of because of the career opportunities a four-year degree can unlock. I always cautioned that if that sort of money was going to be spent, the responsibility to make it work and pay off was huge.

My oldest is one of those rare kids mentioned above (smart, focused, ambitious). She got an expensive four-year degree in International Relations. Her goal was to be hired by the State Department, become a Foreign Service Officer and get paid to travel the world (she's always loved international travel). That's exactly what she did! The pay is pretty good and the perks are great. She's in her mid-thirties now and her degrees will be paid for soon.

My middle child decided against college, went to work for a national bank and began climbing the ladder. She's not overly ambitious but is content where she's at. She was promoted to branch manager a year ago.

My youngest is unfocused, college would be a waste of time for her. Despite that warning she did a semester with a major in biology before dropping out ($15,000.00 down the drain). At twenty-five she is still deciding what she wants to be when she grows up! LOL She's not lazy, she works all the time and is currently employed by me on my construction crew. She just needs to decide what she wants to do with her life and stick with it. I've recommended trade school to her, even offered to pay for it but she's not interested.

I think it depends more on the person than the type of education they choose (trade school vs. college). An ambitious, focused person is almost always going to achieve more of their goals than one who lacks a plan and the initiative to make it happen.

I heard about an article yesterday in the Washington Post (I think) Some people in the SWAMP are spending 200k+ on advisors and consultants to get their kids into schools. They talked about people paying 16k on a day or to class for their kids to prep them for college applications and application letters. Fricken crazy.

I’ll try and find it and see if I’m smart enough to put it on here

I didn't go to collage, I went to a tech. School. I make good money for where we live. My wife works at Wal-Mart she didn't graduate h.s but has made assistant manager in 4 years of working there.

I hear xray tech. Is a good one bowhunter.

I'm a big fan of Mike Rowe. He hasn't slipped up yet. His communication style both written and verbal is refreshing. Good on him all around.

4yr degree here. I'll never regret it.

I went to college, 1 semester, I figured it was a waste of time and money and dropped out.
Then I went to a Tech school, dropped out after 3 semesters, didn't need to finish, I had a job offer in my field of study.
After all I was going to school to get a job, why keep going when you have the job.
Everybody in my class at the Tech school had jobs offers in the field of study on the day they graduated.

I went on to work at several different companies and at the age of approx 35 I bought out a small local business.
I ran that company and grew it about 10 times, then at the age of 50 I sold that business and retired.
I am comfortable, I don't worry about finances.

I managed to retire comfortably because of my work ethic that I learned from my Dad. I didn't need a college degree.

I know many young people, some wonderful people, with college degrees that can't get a decent job. I've asked them many times "did you look into the job market for your field of studies before you started college?" They never do.

They go for studies like Dance, Music, even fields like Chemist Tech and Biology.

I graduated H.S. in '76 and the push for college was bad then and now its worse.

Went to college for 4 years to be a teacher. Recently quit teaching to drive a van in the pipeline as a member of the Teamsters union. I more than doubled.my pay.

Excellent points and I agree with them all. I hope somebody can answer your question, I can't.

I graduated highschool at 17, and joined the Marine Corps. I graduated a week after I turned 18. I did ten years, and got out. Worked for about 11 years, then went to college online via Park University and earned a four year degree in Computer Science, Network Security. My degree is essentially the foundation. In order to be employable with it, I will need 2-3 more certifications in addition to the two I currently hold. Each one of those require Continuing Education to maintain individually, one requiring a complete retest every four years. In all of this what I have learned the most, I don't want to be in this industry anymore. I want to grow and sell produce, so thats what I am doing. I built a hydroponic greenhouse, and have started and am growing a small microgreen production business in my "spare" time. I've had to give up many things, trapping is one that I've had to cut way way back on.
College didn't prepare me for a job, it taught me how to think, and think creatively, as well as understand multiple aspects of a given situation. I would not have been ready right out of highschool to do this. I needed life experience first to appreciate what I was learning, and how to employ it in other aspects of my life. I'm glad I went, I'm glad I did it, but I think it's the culmination of life experiences and college that made me what I am today. Not one or the other. I will never be super wealthy, and I'm ok with that. I find a greater importance in loving what I do.

You really want to know what college taught me? There is no "safe" computer. The only one that is truly safe is the one thats powered off, and locked in a vault. Everything can be penetrated.

If she has worked with you she has likely seen all the different trades in action.

IF she is interested in a trade I would suggest electrician and eventually, an electrical administrators license. Not a lot of need for brute strength but does require some knowledge and the ability to learn and reason.

OR...airline pilot.The best pilots I have known have all been women. It's that fine motor skill thing ..I think.

Both my stepdaughters have 4 year degrees.
Neither have jobs in the field they went to school for.
The jobs they have don't pay to well.
They both have college debt that they will be paying on for years.
I think the kids have to have the motivation to work if they want to go to college.
My two boys have about 5 years before college age.
They will have a decision to make at that time. Hopefully they will have the work ethic to decide what to do.
I have worked hard and they can see what you can get by working hard.
Time will tell.

Back in the 80's my dad told me the "middle class" assembly line type jobs were on the way out, foreign labor vs union labor the jobs would leave. He said there would be 2 types of jobs here Professional vs service and as stated here by several professionals they need certain types of service that they can't do them selves. I was told to follow my dreams and was free to choose my path, I choose wrong lumber mill LOL. Bounced around some and always worked but by stroke of luck found a way to use the skills I had acquired to make a career out of in the government sector.

While the HVAC tec has to see the doctor or lawyer remember that they won't sit too long in an office that has no air conditioning or heat and will call the HAVC tec and pay his price. As for bowhunter's daughter if she has the knowledge there is always someone that has to inspect the work.

I taught at a tech college for 31 years that had a strong apprentice program in 4-5 different areas. Female students were very few. Our son in law owns a mechanical contracting business with 60-70 employees and has few if any females in the trades. Why? Females can find good employment in the medical fields, education, HR and middle management as there are far more females going to college than men in our current culture. Locally I know two females that work on construction crews, one is a carpenter and the other works in cement contracting. (Her father employed her for years b4 he retired.) Another is an electrician and that works well for her. Another reason there are fewer in the trades is many times males make it difficult for them to join in and be part of the crews and or labor picture. Our son in law says it is a difficult employment tight rope to walk and he knows that more dependable employees may be lost due to the culture that exists.

Bryce

HVAC is entirely possible for your daughter too. Home Service is a solid living and often doesn't require much more than being brave enough to crawl into some crappy places. Other trades? Consider what people need in life. Not want, but need. They have to be born, Eat, Shelter, and die. Plenty of options in those categories. Perhaps opening her own poultry business, raising free range birds, for egg sales, as well as free range meat birds for local sale at the near by farmers markets. Friends of mine use pastures to free range their chickens and a mobile chicken house to move pastures, then sell the birds at markets and through a recurring sales program they have. It's done well enough that He is about to quit his full time job, wife is a stay at home. Point being that small scale farming is doable, esp if she gets into the quasi-organic side of things doing a handful of custom grows. Mortician is also a valid need/ funeral director. Nursing will never go away, but does require college. Pharmaceutical sales is big money, but of the five or six I knew that did it, all were drunks and one a pill head. Sales is an environment where Narcissist do the best (sorry if that's offensive)
Point is focus her in areas were the need will never go away.

A lesson todays kids have not learned is that you only get out of a job what you are willing to put in. Work hard, be the best employee ever, and know what the businesses objectives are. Think like your boss.

Some job experiences can teach you what you do not want to do with the rest of your life. I learned a few of those on a farm and in the military, and they enriched my future work ethic.

My son went to UNOH in Lima Oh. Actually a very impressive school. I was thinking a trade school with a couple buildings or so. Was done in 17 months, had a job quickly with a small family HVAC company that installs geo's in several states. He has worked into service and works 50-60 hours a week, his choice. Now makes more than I do and loves it. He would never lasted in a four year school. Mike

That reminds me of my neighbors kid. He's a hard working honest young man who loves to work on cars and trucks. I recently wrote a recommendation for him to the local Boy Scout Eagle Scout Review Panel. Ain't no way that boy was ever going to make it though four years of college. He went to vo-tech for diesel mechanics and was guaranteed a job with a local company before he graduated. He's working for them now, making great money and loving it!

Well although college isn't for everyone my 24 year old daughter and 22 year old son both graduated from University of Akron with business degrees. My wife and I helped some with $$. They both commuted because we live 20 minutes outside of Akron because dorm was on their dime, they both made a wise choice, saved thousands and we got them both at home for 4 years. My daughter is in Culture and People development (HR) for a large building supply company and my son is in sales for Crown Lift Trucks. Both make mid 60's and I am 90% confident that both will be pushing $100 within 5 years. Theres jobs to live on and then theres jobs that you can make a lot more money at working just as hard as someone else. I bust my hump everyday to make 1/4 of someone that doesn't hold a candle to my ethic.

My undergrad degree was not a requirement to get my job. I got my job due to my experience in the field and the required training that I had already received. My degree has been invaluable for promotions. Right or wrong, that piece of paper weighs more than years of experience and on the job education in our promotional process. I'll graduate next summer with my masters because it is a preferred qualification for the things I want to do in the future. The other preferred qual is advanced leadership training. I've been lucky enough to be accepted to the FBI National Academy in April, so I'll have to spend 10 weeks in Quantico starting April 1. It's not that I'm learning anything life changing, but I'm checking the boxes I need to check to move myself to the front of the line in the future. I don't necessarily agree with how it works, but that's how it works none the less. If I didn't do these things I would be doing myself a disservice.

I tell people that all that piece of paper does is check off a box on an application, and it shows that you will finish something that you start. It doesn't mean you know your rear end from a hole in the ground. Done properly, college SHOULD NOT teach you WHAT to think, rather HOW to think; as in the process of critical thinking. In much the same way trade school teaches you to perform a task by repetition and experience, college teaches you problem solving though repetition and experience.

That being said it is not for everyone. That's not a bad thing or a good thing, it's just the way the world works. Trying to force everyone down the higher ed pipeline is unfair to many people who spend a lot of money getting a degree they can't use (or at least can't afford to pay for), or worse yet dropping out and having the debt with no degree. Why not go to school for two years to learn a trade? Get good at it, hire people to work for you, and make more money than all of us!

I started out in skilled trades as an electrician. I went to Vocational School in High School and obtained my electrical license. Working in the field provided me with the motivation to get a 4 year degree in Electrical Engineering. I agree that everyone is not cut out for college, but my four year degree along with the experience I gained in the skilled trade of electrician and an engineering internship while in college have opened many doors for me in my lifetime. As a manager of 14 electricians and electrical technicians, I have had the best success with employees that obtained their skill in the military. They have discipline, real world knowledge, and great work ethic. I can see a time in the near future in my area of the country where it will be an accomplishment if you can get someone to show up everyday scheduled and on time regardless of skill.

Boy howdy! I finished my working career as a garbage truck driver. Even in that business, it's to the point where the drivers come to work when they want to, as you can't hire anybody to replace them that will do any better! As long as they get the work done by the end of the day...

bs, ms, phd.

bullpoo, more poo, piled high and deep.....

Some of the new booming career areas for younger workers allow huge opportunities for flex time and different schedules and a huge number of benefits etc. and they are working out very well. What it takes is management that understands how the workforce can get done what is needed done in a specific time and they don't spend their time counting seconds or reviewing cameras etc. Not easy transitions for most boomers or genxers but the younger groups are doing well with these norms. There will always be a place for the trades and the more the economy shifts toward service versus manufacturing there should be solid futures for those that want those careers.

Bryce

I've made a pile of money fixing the mess that cheap labor installed.

Mike

Some of my wealthiest clients skipped college, rolled up their sleeves and got to work. These guys are in the minority but they certainly exist.

I would be perfectly happy if anyone of my children wanted to pursue a trade and work hard at that trade. I would also be perfectly happy if anyone of them studied hard sciences, engineering or accounting.

What we don't need (and what I would strongly discourage in my house) is a useless degree. The world needs more electricians way more than it needs another sociology major.

Let's hear from a successful college professional who regrets going to college.

That's not the issue its the unsuccessful deep in debt ones that have worthless degrees and 50000 in loans that parents worry about their kids ending up as.

One of the advantages of having specific degrees is one can get careers or jobs in fields they like or enjoy even if they are not the highest paying and or ways to make lots of money. Learning to manage ones lifestyle to fit ones income something mature minded people learn to do and those that don't learn that many times have issues regardless of how much they make.

Bryce

Electrical work, on average, is not nearly as physically demanding as some of the other trades. There are times when it's intensely physical, but that's the exception and not the rule.

My latest apprentice is a woman and she does fine. I'm not sure how well she would have done with the crew installing 5" rigid, but that's a tough job no matter how big and bad a guy is.

Electrical work has many specialties that a person can settle into and make a good living... Fiber work, fire alarm, Tele/Data/Comm, PLC's... Lots of good jobs where you get paid for thinking instead of sweating.

Mike

Hard work never killed anyone.

Hard to find an American to do any today.

Hard work has killed lots of folks Marty.

Depends how you look at that.

Many things have killed a lot of people.

Many people cannot do a day of harder work so it may kill them.

Americans have become very lazy.

proudest i've ever been i believe is talking to the head of the pipeline co my son works for locally and being told he aint like most,he works.Sr. operators are requesting him he says.

and thats saying something cause his big brother takes care of the missiles in N.Dakota.

I never finished high school. Was working full time and school got in the way. Son has bachelors degree in business administration that is paying off. He never was much of a student in high school. Just decided he wanted to do it. have a daughter that's a nurse. Demanding job and she is well paid for it. Have another daughter working for Amazon. High School only. Warehouse is new. little over a year old. She shows up every day and works hard. Already in charge of day shift receiving. good job with good pay and benefits. Was a stay at home mom till she took that job. Both her sons are in high school now.

I think people have to find their own path. learning a skill or going to college. If you got kids hopefully they listen to your real world experience when they pick a fork in the road.

"So trades are fantastic in my opinion. What trades can be recommended for females?"

Surveying, electrician, CNA, truck driver, police work, interior design, drafts person, house keeping business, house painter, real estate sales,
TSA profession, printing/graphic arts, sales of all kinds, lawn care professional, florist, landscaping, postal worker, UPS/FEDEX, barber/hair dresser, code enforcement work, equipment operator, baker, cook, medical assistant, vet tech, technical/trade assistant in education, day care profession, and probably a ton more that I have not thought of.

Some females could no doubt work in carpentry, masonry and plumbing. It would take the right crew leader and situation. I have seen females in all of those positions. But many times those jobs simply require a size four hat and a size 44 jacket. Some of the work is simply brutal.

I am and always have been big on trades. But admit that a four year degree is a door opener. As a technical school teacher (does not require a four year degree in Maine yet and hopefully never) I was offered an administration job by one director. I told him that I did not have a four year degree. He said the state did not require one of this position. The application was rejected by a school superintendent (that technically was not even involved in our school) due to no four year degree.

Having shared all of that, I know plenty of very dumb folks with out a lick of common sense with degrees coming out of their butt. I know lots of really smart folks with no high school education. Tough call. I guess if I had a kid at the age of high school graduation I would simply encourage them to pursue something that would that would make them happy, and provide an income. Life is short, it is nice to do something you like, and also nice to have some cash. I give up!!! No idea what to tell someone. LOL