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more on #44 Newhouse #6333700
09/26/18 01:51 PM
09/26/18 01:51 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 497
utah
M
mike mc murray Offline OP
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mike mc murray  Offline OP
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utah





A while back we were discussing the differences in the #44 Newhouse. So here are some pictures of what I think is the production line of the trap.
#1 pic. is a small pan #4, O.C. Newhouse, circa 1882-95. As u can see this trap has the Kenwood base link and swivel with 13 links of 4 1/2 wolf trap chain and the Kenwood figure 8 cold shut.
I believe this trap was the forerunner of the #44.

#2 pic. Here we have a Large pan without a pat. date Newhouse stamped #44 circa 1895-1911. I believe this is the first actual #44 that was produced. It has the Kenwood base link and swivel with 13 links of wolf trap chain and ring with the figure 8 Kenwood cold shut. Now some of the later large pan no pat. date 44's probably made around 1910-11 had the regular 44 set up with the round rod chain, connector and cast swivel.

#3 pic. This is another variation of the #44 which has the Kenwood base link small cast swivel and a #4 flat link chain. They also made some of these with the 4 1/2 wolf trap chain. The trap in the picture is a pat. date but I have also had one without a pat. date.

#4 pic. This is a pat. date Newhouse stamped #44. It has a round rod chain connector cast swivel with the 13 links wolf trap chain with the ring. I believe most pat. dated 44's came with this setup. As u can see this trap has a split jaw post which puts it in the 1916-18 era.
So this is my take on the #44 Newhouse chain set ups.

Last edited by mike mc murray; 09/26/18 01:54 PM.
Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6333701
09/26/18 01:53 PM
09/26/18 01:53 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 497
utah
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mike mc murray Offline OP
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mike mc murray  Offline OP
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utah
ok people.
Anyone know why my pictures are upside down? What do I do to fix this problem?

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6333796
09/26/18 05:16 PM
09/26/18 05:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 447
Minnesota
4
4zebra61 Offline
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4zebra61  Offline
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Posts: 447
Minnesota
Nice pics, thanks for sharing!


MTA member
NRA Benefactor Life Member
Winchester Arms Collector’s Assn.
Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6333802
09/26/18 05:26 PM
09/26/18 05:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,354
North Cass Co. Minnesota
DiggerDale Offline
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North Cass Co. Minnesota
Can't help you with the pics, but WOW!!! Excellent collection and you've done some homework....
Out of curiosity, does the swivel in the #3 pic have a 3 on it?

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6333829
09/26/18 06:05 PM
09/26/18 06:05 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 497
utah
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mike mc murray Offline OP
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Diggerdale there are no numbers on this swivel

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6333851
09/26/18 06:50 PM
09/26/18 06:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 624
S.W. Oregon,USA
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snakecollector Offline
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S.W. Oregon,USA
Mike, Nice traps.
For the most part you are correct, your dates are off just a little and there are several more variations that you did not mention. I would love to fill in the gaps between but I am getting ready to go on a hunting trip, maybe when I get back I can help.

Thanks for sharing.

Last edited by snakecollector; 09/26/18 06:51 PM.
Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6333933
09/26/18 08:51 PM
09/26/18 08:51 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 497
utah
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mike mc murray Offline OP
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mike mc murray  Offline OP
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utah
That would be great Dean..always good to learn more..I have three more chain variations that I did not post cause cause iam not sure where they fall in
.

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334074
09/26/18 11:42 PM
09/26/18 11:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 74
Texas USA
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IWM Offline
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IWM  Offline
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Texas USA
I have never seen any written documentation that there was a #4 "forerunner" of the #44. Regardless, there would not be a small #4 pan on a #44...conflicting time periods.
Gerstell puts first production of #44 around 1911-1912. My research indicates more like 1908-1910 from purchase orders by US Forest Service (first official predator control agency 1905-1914). There would not be a designated Gov't trap go into production without Gov't agency orders; there would not be Gov't agency orders without Gov't agency money; all appropriations were after 1905...this would be long after small pans were gone.
The first #44s had large pans with no pat date.

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334092
09/27/18 12:38 AM
09/27/18 12:38 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 497
utah
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mike mc murray Offline OP
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mike mc murray  Offline OP
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utah
lwm go to page 5 on this forum topic title 44 chains and check out snake collectors comments he explains the small pan #4 alot better than I do

Last edited by mike mc murray; 09/27/18 12:39 AM. Reason: Spelling
Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334101
09/27/18 03:03 AM
09/27/18 03:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 624
S.W. Oregon,USA
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snakecollector Offline
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S.W. Oregon,USA
IWM,
Just a note, the #31 1/2 Newhouse came out in 1905 with a small pan and I believe that the other size Newhouse traps also had small pans at that time. The #91 and #91 1/2 Newhouse also came out in 1905 with small pans. I agree that I have not seen a #44 marked small pan but they were making the #44 style chain set up on small pan #4's. I have also seen several large pan #4's with the #44 style chain. I have not seen the #44 listed in any Oneida Community catalogs until 1920. However, I am sure that they were being made well before that. Oneida Community shows the #4 Newhouse with the #44 style chain in their 1913 catalog and 1914 Trappers Guide.


Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334237
09/27/18 09:12 AM
09/27/18 09:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,437
saskatchewan/canada
lots of mink Offline
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lots of mink  Offline
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saskatchewan/canada
All of the first Canadian traps in small sizes had small pans. The Canadian factory never opened till 1896. Small pans definitely reached into the early 1900s on Canadian traps. The first of the small Canadian traps to increase pan size was the number four sized traps. Almost all Canadian number fours have a big pan. There is a very few that don't.

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334260
09/27/18 09:48 AM
09/27/18 09:48 AM
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utah
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mike mc murray Offline OP
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That's interesting..I picked up a #44 this week that is a large pan no patent date that has Oneida community NY on the pan but the springs only read S.Newhouse Oneida community in two lines no State or country is stamped on them some say that it is probably Canadian but I really don't know

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334279
09/27/18 10:14 AM
09/27/18 10:14 AM
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Posts: 74
Texas USA
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IWM Offline
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Texas USA
I am well aware of small pans on many early trap models including #4 deer trap preceding #14 and #4 pans on early #3.5 and 31.5, that is well documented.
However, a 44 chain set up on a small pan #4 does not make it a predecessor to the #44...or the first #44.

The diagram above showing #4 with chain & base link is a large pan...you could order a #4 with any variety of chain set-ups.

My point is; production small pans would not be used on #44s that were first offered to Gov't contracts well after 1906.

The first #44 had a large pan with no pat date, most likely introduced in 1908-1910 to fill USFS purchase orders.

If anyone has real documentation to the contrary, I would be very interested in seeing it.

Thx

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334287
09/27/18 10:29 AM
09/27/18 10:29 AM
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Posts: 74
Texas USA
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IWM Offline
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One final note:

The ONLY thing that separates a #44 from the #4 with base link & chain (above in diagram) is a "44" on the pan.
Show me a legitimate small pan #44 and I will concede.

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334426
09/27/18 01:29 PM
09/27/18 01:29 PM
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Posts: 624
S.W. Oregon,USA
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snakecollector Offline
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IWM,
I totally agree with what you are saying. But, Does that mean that a #23/#24 Newhouse clutch trap is not a #23/#24 if it only has a #3/#4 on the pan? Oneida Community advertised them as #23/#24, even though they did not call the #44 a #44 until 1920.

Last edited by snakecollector; 09/27/18 01:34 PM.
Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6334647
09/27/18 05:41 PM
09/27/18 05:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 74
Texas USA
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IWM Offline
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They named the #44 much earlier than 1920...it was not advertised to the public until then. Partly as a marketing ploy and partly as in response to Gov't trappers (Forest Rangers) requests, Newhouse wanted to designate a #4 size trap as a special Gov't issue (quite spontaneously) sometime around 1908.
Your analogy of early pans on the #s 23 & 24, #4 deer trap, #s 3.5 and 31.5 (including #5 Community as predecessor to #15) reflected a development process leading up to a different concept of a trap. The #44 was simply a RENAMING of a trap model that all ready existed in order to designate it as a Gov't trap. The only difference was another 4 added to the pan; so in this specific case, a #44 can only have a "#44" pan.
Therefore, the first production "#44" was a large pan with no pat date. I am not saying there was not a small pan #4 with #44 chain set-up; I'm saying it was not the first #44.
I have been researching Gov't traps for 28 years and would love to find any evidence that the #4 small pan with base link & chain represented the development process leading to a #44...bring it on!
Thx

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6335856
09/29/18 12:29 AM
09/29/18 12:29 AM
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utah
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mike mc murray Offline OP
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utah
This has been a good and interesting thread,it's always good to hear other people's thoughts and perspectives and I want to thank you all for your compliments on my traps.now as to the small pan #4 controversy I am going to stick to my theory that it was the FORUNNER to the #44,iam pretty sure that it was never marketed as a 44 but iam sure the thought process was there if you go way back the newhouse #4 was marketed as THE BEAVER TRAP around or shortly after the turn of century you can tell by some of there ads they were wanting to focus on a trap for the western wolfer and as we see in their ads they came up with the #4 with the kenwood base link and swivel and apparently you could order them this way and it became a good product for them and is stated so in many of their ads in the early part of the 20th century. So I think eventually after the demand got greater as they did with many other traps the number got changed for easier marketing I never said the small pan #4 was a #44 just a for runner but I do believe if you have a collection of 44s and there is not an original small pan 4 with the center swivel set up in it your collection is not complete anyway this is my point of view..the 44 is a neat little trap to collect there are many different variations along with the federal and state stampings that you come across especially on the patent date ones it's just a fun trap to collect

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6335948
09/29/18 07:27 AM
09/29/18 07:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,000
Northern Illinois
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MChewk Offline
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Northern Illinois
Great educational post!
Another question...was there any researched evidence that the centered base link on the 44 had any advantage to the trapper or trapped animal?
Was there an increased swiveling advantage, was the paw centered thus preventing possible damage.... etc?

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6335993
09/29/18 08:36 AM
09/29/18 08:36 AM
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Posts: 497
utah
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mike mc murray Offline OP
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mike mc murray  Offline OP
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mchewk good questions and I really don't know,I do know many of the western and government coyote and wolf trappers preferred them as well as the trappers in Texas and New Mexico where they had the red wolf really liked them as far as any research goes I don't know maybe some of our other members can chime in and let us know

Re: more on #44 Newhouse [Re: mike mc murray] #6336143
09/29/18 12:11 PM
09/29/18 12:11 PM
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Posts: 74
Texas USA
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IWM Offline
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IWM  Offline
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Texas USA
The center link and heavier chain set-up on a #4 frame was requested by the first OFFICIAL Gov't trappers (Forest Rangers) working for the US Forest Service after 1905. It held better on wolves and other large mammal predator catches. This is not a theory, it is a fact...I have copies of that communication.

BTW- I have small pan #4s with Kenwood chain set-up but I don't hang them with my 39- #44 Newhouses (or 2-#44 ATC Onieda-Newhouses)...I will move them over in line when I see more evidence than assumption.

Just my opinion.

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