I remember reading in a book or catalog written by one of the most respected trappers, trapping writers, and unquestionably one of the best lure makers ever to be born, a very interesting remark or observation. This gentleman is still alive, and still makes lure products but due to his age he no longer traps hard.

I remember reading this very interesting topic. He stated he never had any pictures of huge seasonal catches, and until very late in his career, did he even have large pictures of even one species. Yet he made enough money from the fur he caught to support and raise a family, and pay his bills. Until his lure business really took off he did other work in the off season.

He stated he simply was a true professional trapper and therefore had to sell fur as he went along to buy food and pay bills.
That to me sounds like a real, needing the money to live, professional trapper.
I am willing to bet a lot of real, truly professional trappers that actually depended on fur for a living, probably followed this same business model.
Or at the very least sold right after their season ended.

It seems today that many that choose to say they derive a large portion of their income from the trapline, may be a bit better off and different than the old professional trappers.

Not saying that is bad or good. It is simply an observation.

But today you will see arguments going back and forth between "professional trappers" and not professional trappers concerning how to market fur, who to sell to, how to make the most and be the brightest and the best. Often involved in these arguments are folks that hold their fur for a long time after they are done trapping.

I guess it is just plain interesting to me to compare the professional trappers of the past that trapped because they actually needed money to survive, to the "professional trappers" of today that treat furs like a stock in the market, and only sell at the so called smartest time to sell, and then tell every one else how stupid they are.

Are they the same kind of professional?
No, I would have to offer they are not.
This has been a phenomenon I have witnessed over the years. I think back to some big names showing barn shots or furs hung by the rafters or piled in a truck. It still goes on today.

Just an observation from being in the game for over 50 years. And yes at one time, when I took time to trap, I was selling fur soon after it was harvested and handled to buy beans and pay bills.

Thanks for reading

Mac

It's an interesting term for discussion certainly, especially since it has so many definitions.

You can take it as a measure of skill, or it's ones job, or if you make a significant portion of your income during the time your trapping. The latter two classifications are the easiest to achieve. The former is hardest, a lot of professionals in all kind of industries that suck at their jobs and still get paid.

You have some good points. Thanks for sharing

You can tell by this that Mac is/was not an Internet Trapper! ! ! Reading, interpreting, and then trying is a lot different than seeing and copying.... Thanks Mac from all of us who started in the 60's (finding all the dead ends) and are still at it...... the mike

Fella that taught me to trap was a full timer in the fur boom. Sold fur every 2 or 3 days on the carcass. Figured he could make more running hard and focusing on setting more/new traps every day than if he was stopping and skinning into the wee hours of the night. He was the type of guy that for opening day of trapping season, at 1159pm he'd be at his first location waiting to start setting.

Guess it all depends on the definition of a trapper and professional. Most professional trappers down here don’t make their money on furs sold but on critters caught. And these guys pay their bills that way.

You used to be able to find a local buyer to sell as needed. Not so many options anymore

do we need labels??

No business is the same as they were 40 years ago. Even the "professional " trappers of 40 years ago are quite different than ones 150 years ago.

Im a professional in my own mind, and wouldn't hold a candle to some/most of you guys. But, I always had my bill money beforehand before I trapped professionally for 1-2-3 months at a time. I think a pro would also consider maximizing their profits, which would be other avenues other than the local furbuyer every day/week/month. Who knows, everybody rolls differently

I can state for a fact...I will NEVER be referred to as a professional!! Lol

Fur handling can also be looked at as a part of time management. (As you mentioned).

When doing contract beaver work, there’s often times a lot of time spent driving. There are some that’ll get home at 7-8 pm with anywhere from 2 to 10+ beavers knowing that they have to load up and do it all over again the next day. Having a wife and small kids at home that haven’t been seen all day, suddenly $15 worth of beavers aren’t quite as valuable compared to time spent with them.

When it’s 0 degrees, it’s not a big deal. When it’s 70 degrees, the clock is ticking. Not wanting to waste the animals, selling whole animals on larger catch days are a blessing.

Selling whole animals works for these types of people. When time permits or when buyers aren’t available, they don’t mind pelting some.


It works out very well for these people when there’s a buyer that lives down the road from them and can be worked into the day’s driving routes. These days with GPS navigation, it’s as easy as plugging in different cities and destinations to find the best ways to get from A to C with B being the buyer.

If said trapper had the time and the setup to further process furs, I’m quite certain he would. However, limited freezer space and other work obligations prevents him from being able to do everything that he could to maximize profit.

Time mangement is a struggle whether professional or other wise.
Prior Planning is key to not having a pee poor performance.

O'Gorman had/has a lot of barn photos. Pretty hard to argue him anything other than a "professional". Not sure I understand how the definition of a pro trapper label has to do with whether you need to sell fur the moment you catch it. Zagger, in my mind, is a professional trapper, but not a man that will miss a meal if he doesn't sell his fur that week. Guess I just don't get it....

Mac,

You're always thinking brother. Always thinking.
Good question.

Could it be that as in any vocation, and that's how I view trapping = a vocation. Not a sport. Not a hobby. It could be those, but like plumbing, carpentry, (vocations) etc. there are levels of expertise and achievement of higher levels can lead to more fur, and more profitability and so forth. So, it's not quite like deer hunting or duck hunting where you just get better at bringing more deer or ducks home. The vocation of trapping is a skilled learning, so as people gain experience, training, spend time honing skill sets, and all that vocations do....
perhaps the title professional fits.
Time + results + other factors such as major source of income (not so easy these days however) = pro

Food for thought.

Mark

Great responses on this interesting topic...good job Mac!

That is an interesting way to define a professional. So if you have your finances in order enough that you don't need instant cash to put food on the table you are less of a professional?

That's the way I'm reading the OP, your not a true professional trapper unless you are in a financial position that you need money right away or very soon after your done trapping. I'm confused why one's financial situation would determine if they are a professional or not. I've got an idea about the real motivate for the OP but its speculation so I'll keep it to myself. Maybe Mac could explain his point a bit more.

I'd say you can be a professional at more than one thing at a time. Take Phil Brown for example, most would consider him a professional trapper, but he's also a master at concrete, and maybe more things than that...

Zagger's the same

Trapping to me has always been a profession.Fur-an important income supplement that paid larger bills when I worked full time.Part of my fulltime union Railroad job was also trapping related as I did beaver control work from april to december.Also other Nuisance beaver work in the summer on a contract basis was/is also part of my overall income.
I now have a RR pension built up by my beaver control work(a lot of overtime),continue to do contract nuisance work,and also fur trap.All this is part of my income and basically all trapping related.
I also do a small amount of furrier work for added income.I consider that as more of a hobby,although the monetary return per hour of labour is much greater than any other aspect of trapping/fur related work.
I also have another fur related hobby-tanning for my own use.I love to experiment with different tanning processes,and recently developed a method of vegetable tanning fur that is fast and will not stain white fur.

motivate for the OP but its speculation so I'll keep it to myself.


Forgive my ignorance but I simply do not know what the acronym OP stands for.
So therefore I cannot speculate just what presumption you have for "I've got an idea about the real Maybe Mac could explain his point a bit more."
Not sure how long you have been in the game, not that matters. Except you view point might be based on 3, 4 or 10 years of being involved in the trapping game.

My perspective potentially be different due to the fact that I have spent over 5 decades in the game, and have been a student of the history of trapping. That may be why we look at things differently and it could be I am not articulate enough to ask probing questions. I am but a simple man.


"I'm confused why one's financial situation would determine if they are a professional or not."

Well it not really all that confusing unless one is looking for some dark hidden motivation concerning the comparison of professional trappers in the past to professionals of say the last 30 years.
I suppose you could look for some hidden meaning lurking in the shadows for a reason for the topic. If you come up with one, please share.

Yes sir wrote: No business is the same as they were 40 years ago. Even the "professional " trappers of 40 years ago are quite different than ones 150 years ago.
You are spot on. Times and business practice change.


pcr 2 writes:" do we need labels??"
I admire your willingness to help others and certainly your trapping skills. (Love those mink pictures you shared not long ago) But to be honest, due to your sense of humor, I am never sure when you are joking.
I guess you have a good point. Following suit with that line of thinking, one would assume folks will stop labeling those darn liberals, and they should not be picking on the orange man.
We better not label those limp wristed anti gun folks. Etc.

Dean Chapel writes: "You used to be able to find a local buyer to sell as needed. Not so many options anymore"
Excellent and valid point.


Walleye 101: "That is an interesting way to define a professional. So if you have your finances in order enough that you don't need instant cash to put food on the table you are less of a professional?"
Good point.

But I have a question for you.
Do you personally know other folks in other professions (doctors, lawyers, carpenters, plumbers, nurses, teachers, store clerks etc. etc.) that can go for months at a time living on their savings or the stock market dividends? You may, so I would hazard a guess that we fly in very different social circles.

If I were you I would change my tag or handle. Some might think you are related to the other "Walleye".


Beezmador : O'Gorman had/has a lot of barn photos. Pretty hard to argue him anything other than a "professional". Not sure I understand how the definition of a pro trapper label has to do with whether you need to sell fur the moment you catch it. Zagger, in my mind, is a professional trapper, but not a man that will miss a meal if he doesn't sell his fur that week. Guess I just don't get it....

Well lets think about this for just a moment. And God knows I have been wrong a lot of times, because I am thinking from a working class mentality.
If a trapper sells 5 muskrats he is a professional. He made money working in an endeavor. If one receives money, technically a professional is this person. But does this person use the professional money to support a family and house hold?

One might plausibly make the jump that a man that does not have to sell fur as he goes, might, just might be making money in other areas they are involved in. One could speculate that an individual is yes making money in the end, but may not truly be dependent on a fur check. Just a different way of looking at things.

Not really looking to argue, just making an observation.

I think some of the comments are confusing the words expert with professional. Two different titles.

I might be wrong but I will go out on a limb with this statement. Mr Zagger and I do not spend time on the weeks playing cards or drinking beverages. But that said I consider him a friend.
Again, I might be wrong, but I bet Mark does not label himself a professional. Sure he sells his furs and to let folks in on an inside secret, the boy is not just a pretty face. He has found some ingenious ways to market fur. But that is not how he makes a living.

Is Zagger an expert? I would say he is no doubt one of the most expert canine trappers I have met and spent time with. And I should add I have spent time with some tremendous trappers. He has a tremendous amount of knowledge and his skill set as a coyote man would pretty darn hard to match. Never once have I heard Mark claim he was a professional. Think about that for just a minute.
And I would out up against anyone. Good Lord not that long ago he went West trap and one of the most often talked about trapper spent time whining and complaining about the guy that came West to trap "his" coyotes. Boo Blanking Hoo, What a whiner. He tried to bad mouth Zagger and the man form the East put him in his place.

He has paid his dues. He has developed a system that extremely effective, and innovative. He gives credit to those he has learned from.
He is a coyote killing machine. He is a hard worker, and very competitive. There is no doubt that he is truly a canine expert. Knowing what I know of the guy, I would put my money on the bet that he will be a high performer at what ever he decides to trap. Expert for sure. Again, never once heard him say he was a professional. He is not the most humble man I have met but he is not a chest beater like so many today. Most extremely confident folks often do not seem super humble. That is because they have worked hard and are confident and believe in themselves.

There are countless guys on this forum that I would consider out standing experts. Many do not claim to be a professional. The majority also work at other work that is no doubt more lucrative than fur trapping. There are lots of true experts on here.

Note: For God's sake I have no argument with trappers that consider themselves a professional like lumber jack 391 wrote. No argument. I bet he is probably a proud man that is also an expert.


It no doubt pays for a person that makes lures and baits for sale or to sell you school learning or instruction, to keep you fur for a picture. Good marketing for sure.

Guys doing complaint or ADC work, yes, those guys are trapping for money and there is no doubt they are both professionals and experts.

I have almost forgot what the original topic starter was about. But thanks to those that have joined in.

Pastor June wrote: Mac,

You're always thinking brother. Always thinking.
Good question.

Thank you sir.

You bet sir. Always trying to think and watch others to figure out why they do what they do, and how they go about it. One item that has given me a lot to ponder is the instruction game. It is a most interesting thing to examine. Look way back and you will find ads from some big names running ads in FFG. Bill Nelson and others. Back in the last real fur boom there were quite a few instructors advertising. Some wrote some pretty fancy marketing piece that borrowed from other literature, and some pretty clever lines were used. Some could really put the LDC out.
In more recent years schools have popped up. Very interesting to see how things have progressed or evolved. Interesting in deed

Thanks to all that responded.
Peace to all and God Bless

Mac

Mac, having read many of your post, I for one am sure you didn’t imply any negative sentiment toward those that have spent countless hours mastering their craft, no matter what they do for a “day job”, though I will admit it seemed puzzling to make a connection that a “professional” must derive all their income from trapping. You mentioned some semantics in the words chosen (expert vs professional) and perhaps the if the word “profession” was used as an alternative to “professional”, some of us would not have been as confused. At any rate, interesting discussion. All the best!

Are you only a professional if your too poor to pay your bills with out selling fur continuously?

zagger--part time pro

bossman--full time pro.

i would consider myself a part time pro with put up.

I am a decent trapper, and I carry myself in a professional way. While the definition of a "professional trapper" is shrouded in ambiguity, I honestly do NOT consider myself a professional trapper. I am old school, and probably think of the definition incorrectly........vs. some other ways of looking at it. I looked at it more from a standpoint of income and deriving the bulk or ALL of your income from trapping.

In the end, who really did that or does that? Even during the fur boom, the guys I knew about and thought about as professionals were the ones that wrote books, sold lure, and still trapped barn-loads of fur. Milligan, OG, Russ Carmen, etc. But in the end, I bet if they were honest, they'd tell you the lure/bait/book sales were FAR more important to their families than the fur check.

Times were different then.....gas was cheap, a new truck cost you $8000 and you could buy one with a season's fur catch. How many guys sell enough fur TODAY (that THEY trapped) allowing them to buy a new $50,000 truck at the end of the season???

Going forward, the professional trappers, in my mind, will be the ADC/Nuisance guys and they will be getting paid for their services vs. the fur check.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


I've ALWAYS thought that since everyone needs to put trappers in buckets, or apply labels, that there'd be a better way to do it with LESS ambiguity:

A belt system, similar to the martial arts world.

White, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, red, brown, and black belts.

I like this view because there are even DEGREES of black belt (perhaps all of the colors, not sure?)

So, let's say I am somehow considered a black belt in coyotes (indulge me!!!! LOL)

And let's say a guy like O'Gorman is a black belt. Or Phil Brown. Or whomever. I don't think we are in the same place, so maybe I am an entry-level black belt, and Phil is a 10th-degree black belt. Or whatever.......

******************************************DISCLAIMER*********** I am NOT putting myself in the same bucket or belt class as OG or Phil.....just trying to paint a picture!

Don't be so literal!

Have at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MZ

Hey Zag,

That'd be a super demo at the NTA!
In this corner, from Birmingham, AL going for his orange belt....
And in this corner from Reading, PA going for his 5th straight triple-double....

Put it on the big screen as the demo crowd cheers and the coyotes are released into the arena.

Oh wait, the Romans did that and the Lions always won.
Nevermind. Coyote bites hurt.

I'll stay a white flag belt.

I would admit that ADC is growing leaps and bounds. I haven't fur trapped in three years and I miss it, but the income derived from ADC contracts dwarfs fur lines.

Cool YouTube channel too! Love it.

MJ

Ha! I could see some trappers going for their belts just whipping out a pistol and whacking the opponent!

Bang!!!!

Who's next???

I can't imagine the demand for nuisance control going forward.....I get calls all the time, and I'm not even technically IN the biz!

MZ

I have 3.5 more years until I graduate as a pastor Mac. I appreciate your "you got this" support.

MJ

No white belt here but Im about ready to wave my white surrender flag.....I tap out

Let's look at it this way.

Seems most fur trappers csnt live off of the fur check year around even in past years, so they work other jobs or find a way to support themselves the other 9 months of the year. If both guys trap full time two or three months of the year and one makes enough money the other 9 months of the year that he doesn't have to sell his furs right away compared to the guy that traps the same amount but doesn't make or save enough money from the other 9 months to pay his bills through the trapping season, why should the guy that is making less money those other 9 months be called a professional trapper and the guy who traps just as hard through the fur season but makes more money the other 9 months not be considered a professional trapper?

There’d be a lot more “professionals” out there today if fur had the same buying power it did 40 years ago.

Of course, coyotes would have to average $300-400 today for that to be possible.

Yep Boone.
I ran the numbers.
My $75 red fox in 1979 would have to bring $277 today.
Groeny is going have to dig deeper.

Defined by Webster: a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs ie a professional golfer.

I agree with most everyone but would point out that to maximize your fur check you have to finish it. Most trappers who trap all day every day of a fur season have prepared themselves for the season. That includes the finances to be able to do what they know they need to. Like any other business that is seasonal and self owned there are costs associated with the end result. To say you need to sell every week to put food on the table is a comment of possibly someone who lives from pay check to pay check. I have a very successful business in the lawn care business. I bill monthly on most accounts and as anyone who does this knows, it takes the accounts a week or two to pay. Some commercial accounts get me my money shortly before or after the billing cycle for the next month. If I was to agree with the OP (mac) I would have to be at the door of my customer while the mower was still running. You run no business like this very long and the fur business is the same. For me and my fur I have most of the time sold in March when all my fur is done. It draws a bigger buyer crowd when you have a one shop stop that they can buy a truck load from. Just my thoughts. Yes I consider myself a professional. Not bragging but you are either a pro, or amateur, or hobbiest. I have no issue with any of those "titles" LLL

A big thanks to most everyone that took time to respond.
As for the last post I would suspect a lot of the old school boys did live week to week. But then again times were different.
It is not uncommon for some builders, for example, to receive payment every week or every other week, when working time and materials.

"To say you need to sell every week to put food on the table is a comment of possibly someone who lives from pay check to pay check."

If this statement, is targeted to the OP or original poster, which would be me, it is an interesting tactic that does not surprise myself or others.

Thanks for the responses. I am as the fellow above stated, tapping out. I need to work on my resume and update to a true professional trapper for that section of the resume. I knew I was for the ADC work but now by golly I just got a boost in status. Cool Beans!

The true agenda.

Whatever the true definition of a professional trapper is, they have my total respect....In no way would I want my trapping to be a profession, because I don't believe the maximum level of enjoyment
could be maintained with the demands that would entail....Not for me at least.

It is in fact a very satisfying sport for me, scouting, matching wits with natures finest, being outdoors, handling and maintaining traps, putting up fur, and just sitting in the fur shed at night admiring the fur is all like therapy for the soul.

Money is nice, and everyone wants to be the best trapper they can....But when it comes to making a living, Trapping is just icing on the cake when $$ are made.

Behind most pros is a wife with a good job. lol

You can be a pro trapping at a hobbiest level IE time constraints, low fur prices, injuries ETC.....

Take Phil and Larry as two examples, both regularly catch enough fur in dollars to probably get by on. Neither one sits around the rest of the year pinching pennies to squeak by on. Does that make them less professional, absolutely not if catch totals are a comparison.

I knew a guy who squeaked by on fur checks and a lure business. I'm not interested in squeaking by, myself.

Where I grew up many guys cut bluestone spring,summer and early fall. They would trap late fall and all winter to support their family.I trapped some of the same areas as them and the competition was fierce. I was friends with two of the trappers and some Friday nights they hit the fur buyer for mortgage money.

"If I were you I would change my tag or handle. Some might think you are related to the other "Walleye"."

That may be good advice, since there has been some confusion at times.

NAFA must have sent me a dozen of those free DVD's thinking they were sending them to Walleyed!

I remember a Russ Carmen quote back when fur was really high priced and people were being told by some "pros" that they could quit their jobs and become full time trappers, and catch enough for year round income.
Russ said he thought some of these guys were going to bite the bullet and he asked Thorpe what he thought a pro trapper was and Johnny said something like:
"Well, I know I can make a living off fur during the trapping season. But, at the end of the season, I have to find another line of work, because the money I made is gone, because I was living off it."

That's a professional trapper, someone who depends on the fur check to pay the bills, gas and groceries.

It may help to figure out the context of the word professional because it can be used in our English language as either an;

Adjective; modifies a noun. I use this in my Professional Predator Trapping Academy as an adjective which modifies the noun Academy to describe that the Academy (noun) is run in a business manner.

Or as a:
Noun: The word professional when used as a noun typically means one who is qualified according to Websters.

So if Carman or Thorpe won the lottery, yet continued to trap the same they they did their whole life, they would no longer be considered a professional?

Yes sir

I had to give a deposition/testify once and the lawyer asked me what made me a professional to make the statement that I provided. He clearly defined a journeyman as a professional as he had over 8,000 hours in the field to get his “ticket’ and also made it very clear that a person with a bachelor’s of science had a 4 year degree and that made him a professional. I did not have either. I told him to bring in every law enforcement vehicle into the lot and see where a piece of equipment was installed. He choose 3 at random for inspection, all were the same. One county, one state one federal, all the same. Case was dismissed.
I got in a discussion with a PHD about over the horizon Doppler RADAR for target acquisition, he stated that it did not exist, he was a teacher, and I was a 20 year Navy veteran.
You can be a “professional” soldier or sailor and go into a foreign county and get some real harsh lessons taught to you by the local war lords and tribal leaders. Eskimos do not do well in New Guinea and Puapins do not do well in in the Artic: but both are experts (professional) in their environment.
I have trapped since in was 10, I have known some very good trappers, Brad Rendell (Western NY RIP) was a student of Bill Nelson and knew Craig O. very well and was even listed in his catalog as a student. Brad said the big name western guys would never make it in New York or PA, to many rules, posted land, dogs, deer hunter, antis and competition of a limited number of animals. It did not change the fact of who or what they were.
A fur trapper may trap 4 months a year while an ADC man traps 12 months a year. 30 years ADC vs 30 fur trapping, huge difference, yet I would say both are professional.
If cash flow defines a professional then trappers are a poor lot. If experience and time in the field defines a professional then we are a very rich “craft” in deed.
Trapping is inductive thought process at its best, you teach a repetitive process but can you teach someone to think, to reason out a problem.
Zagger is a thinker, MJ is a thinker, MAC is also. The ability to put 2 and 2 together is not such a common skill set anymore.

MJ becoming a Theologian will require him to hit his I believe button, that is called faith. He will also have to do a lot of reasoning also in the area of human physcology (poor spelling)

Zagger sought trapping truth after years of study, it was a labor of love, maybe that is what makes the professional, the love. I enjoyed his shares during our brief conversations, he loves trapping.

I know trapping as a skill set has kept me alive in many foreign countries in some difficult situations.

Enjoy ur profession.
Henpecked

i would say ime a professional trapper in that for 7 or more month of the year i make every penny i have trapping,while not making the money in the fur ime paid per head and i put a lot of critters to bed!
if i really worked at it and went hard i could make enugh money in 6 months to take summer off and doss around.
imo to be classed as a pro you need to be earning %50 or more of your money in trapping

I don't know that Carmen claims to be a professional. He has said he makes most of his living off the trapping industry, not fur sales.
I'm just telling you what my definition of a professional is, which is someone who makes his living off trapping, or at least makes most of his living off of it during the season.
If you don't trap for your income, IMO, you are a hobby trapper, no matter how good you are at it. Nothing wrong with that.

There was an old guy that lived nearby when I was young. His income was mostly from selling the furs he trapped, well that and the refund he got from the cans he picked up. He also lived in a run-down shack of a house, wore clothes he found on the road or pillaged from goodwill's dumpster, ate out the dumpster and stole every trap he could locate from other's traplines. Survived off the fur money but didn't hardly have a pot to pee in. But I guess he was, by your definition, a professional trapper.

Professional Johnny Sneakum is a skill of sorts also, I knew a fella very similar to the one you describe.

Heckuva poacher too, he excelled as a woods crook, Lol

Did jealousy bring this topic up?
I’m still fairly new on this site and at trapping, but I was quick to realize who I consider “professionals” on here, and it has nothing to do with money. Some folks can just plain out catch critters...consistently. To me that’s a professional. I don’t care if they make any money at it, they catch critters. I catch critters about the first week and a half on properties then it dies out. If I was a professional I’d keep catching critters. Professional trappers “know” the critters they’re after. They know their moves and habits sometimes better than the critters themselves. These are the guys I pay attention to. These men are professionals at trapping.

What is the difference between a pro and an expert, if any?

Henpecked.
First of all, your name signifies that you "listen" to your wife.
Or;
That you laid out amongst the hens and got bit.

Words have meanings and in any language they vary depending on how the author intended. Many a struggle has been started because the opposing sides differed in context of "one" word.

I would agree with you that there is much in trapping we have to "think" through if we want to better our skills. Hard work is a given. Low prices the same many times. Weather, varies. But the situation you get handed out in the field is where the rubber meets the road. Experience is the best councilor oftentimes. Learning from others shortens the curve manytimes. But still, you have to think your way through a situation and make a move. Simply thinking and not moving on your thought doesn't work well as you would expect.

I've seen Zagger in the field for instance. Passion for the love of our sport x 1,000. Strong man who can whack and pound things while you stand around "figuring" your next move. But most importantly he's thinking it through and making his move accordingly. The Pipe Dream is an example of a situation that needed a solution. Thinking. For yourself - based on your past experience.

Good post sir.
Mark

Mac,
My brain is fried this morning after looking over medical terminology so I will take a shot at your question. I think comparing professional anything to a professional from years apart is comparing apples to oranges. I do enjoy reading what you and several people that have already commented have written over the years.

The world just isn’t what it was like when the original “professionals” you speak of survived off fur checks. I don’t think that someone’s ability to work smarter not harder makes them any less of a professional trapper than a guy that scraped by to survive trapping. I hide a lot in the shadows but I read a lot. Constantly reading. Constantly learning or trying to improve things and that goes with everything in life. I’m also certain I know what your original post pertains to. I don’t see any of the professionals of today riding around on horseback killing coyotes.

A professional to me when related to trapping has very little to do with making a majority of their income on trapping. There are trappers that take very little out of their year to focus on trapping that could flat out work some people I’ve seen regarded as “professionals” in the business flat under the table. They’ve chosen other avenues to pursue a majority of the year, but I don’t think of them as any less of trappers for that choice. I still consider a number of them professionals.

I’m not a professional trapper and never have claimed to be, but I can use my own life for an example. I’m almost certain when someone is “treating their furs like a stock in the market,” they are only trying to maximize their return on their effort. Once again I would consider that working smarter not harder. Here in Nebraska we don’t have coyotes tripping over each other but we have coyotes (the only thing really worth trapping around here right now).

Now I could wake up every day run my truck about 50 miles round trip. Figure $0.75 cents a mile of wear on my truck (that’s probably way too low) you’ve got $37.50 per day. Fuel for 50 miles I’m in about $10 a day…I like to stay warm I’m not getting 20 miles a gallon bouncing through the fields and I doubt anyone could. Run about 100 traps a day. Shoot for an average of 5 coyotes a day (I know I know someone will say I should catch 20 coyotes a day running 100 traps but you can’t catch them if there aren’t that many there to start). After 60 days of that I could have 300 coyotes and one of those pretty barn photos. I’ve got $2,250 of wear on my vehicle, I’ve got $600 in fuel, and I’ve made $15,000 on my coyotes (that’s figuring a $50 average on our type of coyotes finished). Now lets factor in the supplies to catch the coyotes, the supplies to put up those coyotes, and the money needed to keep my freezers running while I’m putting up those coyotes. How many tires did I blow while I was out for 60 days? In my case the answer would be a lot! Then you should probably factor in YOUR time…I mean time is money does ring true. The time to catch the coyotes, the time to put up the coyotes, and the time to market your coyotes. I don’t even know what that number is but I can tell you there’s not a profit and there definitely isn’t enough to live off with today’s society. There are so many costs there that I didn’t even associate with what it takes to run a trap line. Even if I had a place to drop off coyotes on the carcass every day it would be a sad state of affairs.

Now I could go out in the elements of Nebraska for 60 days a year bust my rear end. Drop off my coyotes every day on the carcass. Wonder where my next meal is coming from. Or I can drive 5 minutes make a guaranteed $37-64 an hour every day all day as a professional and let my dreams of fur trapping float in my head all day. Does that make me less of a trapper because I have avenues to make a better income than if I trapped for fur full time?

The reality is a person can be what I would consider a professional trapper but he’s found that he can live a much more comfortable life pursuing other aspects in life. I know of personal friends that have trapped part time and paid for brand new trucks. They don’t choose to live off that money year around though. I’m sure they could meet your requirements for a professional trapper very easily if they chose to. Personally, I would never want to be a professional trapper as you describe it selling fur to put food on the table. I have a huge passion for trapping but if it ever came to my pride as a trapper and providing for my family trapping would be in the dust.

Pro is a commercial term, a claim or ego.
An expert is an internal confidence that gets results.
A pro has a yearning to be recognized. Self advertising
An expert doesn’t desire attention.
Both can be very good at their craft just different personalities.

Then that settles it, Im a self proclaimed expert.

I trap for a living and have for many years. I have traps out every day of the year unless I get a chance to take a day or week off. My trapping is ADC, where I earn my living trapping whatever the problem animal is, using whatever tool and method I need to use to get it done. Even though I started off in fur and still fur trap, my hero shots of fur are long gone. My full-time trapping is not getting them to skin, and put them up, but rather get the one or few that are causing the damage, and move to the next job. In my mind and maybe I am wrong but, the professional trapper is the person that earns their living or a lot of their living by trapping. They will most times, over time, become very proficient in the trade or they will starve and not stay at it LOL What I have seen over the years is that most professional trappers are never really known, except by the few close to them and really see what they do and not what they show. If the professional trapper is also a good businessman, as, in any trade, they will make good money, and if they are not good at the business they will live a humble life. The amount of money made does not reflect on the amount of knowledge or ability that a person has with catching or trapping, but on the business end only. As I thought about the original opening post, the older professional trappers from those of today, Old or new they always figure out how to make the living from trapping, not on one mindset, but finding a way to make some money, be it selling the fur or selling the job to solve the problem, so they can continue to live the life they know and are happy in. I don't know if Bob Jamson will remember this. I remember it like it was yesterday, about 20 years ago at a WCT conference, he, myself, Mike Page and a few others were standing talking about what else lol trapping and the longliners going to be a thing of the past. Bob said you know this group will be the next professional trappers.

Not very professional if you have to steal. That's a professional thief, lol.

great thread but its a thinker.

Professional per Webster's dictionary
1. adjective: relating to or connected with a profession

2. noun: a person engaged or qualified in a profession.

I am a Professional Trapper and many others are as well - according to the English language definition of the word.

When some read the word, perhaps they assume professional is a word of rank or status, but that's not what this word means. Every time someone asks me why I call myself a Pro Trapper, are they thinking, A. I'm arrogant? B. I'm ranking myself as better?
Nothing of the sort. Professional means, per the dictionary, to conduct oneself in a business like manner = I do
Professional means being engaged or qualified in a profession = Yep
There's no ranking terminology in this word.

Now if you use terms like; best, better, above, over, never beaten, on top, = these are ranking terms in English.
Professional is not a member of that category.

Besides, weather is the criteria above all others! When it's nice weather = you do well. When it's crummy weather = you don't.

MJ

MJ, you ARE considered a professional. Someone that can consistently catch critters is a professional.

Thanks Wanna Be. Humbling comment.
I, like many, love the great outdoors, and love being out in it. It's about that simple. I bet you do as well!

I loved raising my 5 children, and now our 11 grandchildren, to respect and marvel at all that God has made and gives us. Even when our hipboots leak, and the rat traps are empty!

I'd wager what little I own on the fact that MANY here on TMan are of that same frame of mind.

Blessed

This ^ ^^ may be the best analogy I've ever seen of the subject.

Expert;
adjective: having or involving authoritative knowledge
noun: a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area

We'd have to further define and put into context, authoritative, but the word expert would seem to define more rank than the term professional, true?

At least in the grammatical sense of the English language.

Well done Mark.

The English language is confusing, complicated, and inconsistent. I truly feel for anyone who has learned it as a second or third language!

Profession seems to focus on the equity. Promotion builds equity.

Expert interests are strictly craft driven.

Of the trappings 1%ers there are 2 groups with exact opposite intentions. The One will jump in the spot light and the other covers their tracks to stay in the dark.

Today that ship has sailed.

The ones that stayed in the dark lived by the "Why advertise if you have nothing to sell" philosophy

Ya the “experts” LOL

Lol

Ah, at last, Inspector Jacques Clouseau is alive, well and finally showed up.
What would the place be without him? LOL

Mac

Interesting dialog to say the least.
If one farmer harvest his grain crop and transports it to the local grain elevator to sell. Is he a more professional farmer than the one who stores his grain waiting to sell on hopefully a better market?
I see no need to put labels or titles on ourselves no matter what volume of fur we catch or how we choose to or need to market it.
Trap, continue to learn and enjoy our craft.
Don't worry be happy.

I say that if a person makes or has made the majority of his income for several years by trapping he is, or at least was, a professional trapper. Labels are for marketing purposes and may backfire if not earned.

With all that has been said

I trap fur when it is in season. And I think I can made a pay check."think" is the key word.State hopping to make pay checks.
Turtles made up my spring and summer income .Trapping them, buying and selling them.State hoipping here too.That is till the market droped out,and the state closed the water or over reglated it.Turtles now have gone by the way of the market gunner.
Worked on and off for 25 years as a Predator Control Trapper for the USF&WLS . USDA ended that.
Buliding, selling,snares ,trapping supplies filled in afer mid summer and early fall.
Building and repairing commercail fishing boats .Filled all the gaps

Now,Im a dinosore,Out lived my time. But what a time I'v had.
Too old to put up the riggers of state hopping fur, and turtles.Even if there was a good market.
Turtle market my as will be dead.
Building and selling snares,and trapping supplies. Make my pay checks today.
Fall ,winter,spring I dabble in commercail fishing.
Slowed down with the boat building and repair.
On line snaring instuction and our Trapping school.Fills in the gap that Social Scourity does not fill.

I lived a wonderful live.
Did things ,been places .People with "neal jobs" only deam about.
GOD is a big part of my life now. I'm content. Altho those bill keep comming in. I now know GOD will never give me more than I can handle.


Problems ? NO. I give them to GOD

Very well said Newt.

X2

Excellent Newt. Thank you for sharing.

I think a professional can be blind folded and dropped off in the middle of nowhere with some traps and they will find, and catch the animals PLUS put up fur to high standards. Some guys are good at catching some are good at skinning but to be a true professional I think requires proficiency in every aspect of trapping. A true professional should be called so by others. Professional status shouldn't be self proclaimed.

That is spot on .
Like being called a wolfer
Not a self description it's one given by others about someone

Wolfer... How many folks who either call themselves wolfer or others call a wolfer have even trapped wolves? And how many wolves does one need to have trapped? Maybe labels are just made up to make ourselves or others feel better about ourselves or others.

All you need to do to be a professional here in my neck of the woods is go down to the State office of Professional licensing and pay the fee and get your license that says you're a professional.

You may need to provide education and training documents though.

Read with an

I just like catching critters.
I like the highs and lows of trapping.
I don’t have to earn a living doing it, just make a little fun money to buy more trapping stuff.
It seems the lows outnumber the highs sometimes, but it’s that morning check where all the stars aligned that makes all the days of no catch not matter anymore.
I like reading of others success and methods.
I like trying them to see if they work for me.
I like seeing those with a high number of critters (Coyotes) to catch.
I like seeing those who struggle, because of a low density, make a catch and hear the jubilation just by reading their post.
I like the professionals and the wannabe’s, they all teach whether they realize it or not.
I like winning, but I really enjoy the learning.
Heck, I just like trapping...period.
Whether anyone’s a professional or a wannabe, we’re all still trappers.

I have never seen a wolf in the wild.

Was up in in ND though about 96 or 7 trapping coyotes. Had a partner. We went into a bar in the little town of Harvey one night. I heard somebody say, "Dats dem Kansas wolfers". So one of them comes up and asks me if we didnt have coyotes in KS. I had had a couple snorts by then and said "me and Mike killed them all". Guy gave me a funny look for a bit and finally started laughing. They wouldn't let us buy any more drinks and we found out those boys drank with a hollow leg. Next day was LOOOOOOOOONG. They had no clue how many coyotes we had killed. I don't think "wolfer" is always some kind of a label associated with hero worship. Apparently in Harvey ND its just a coyote trapper.

Its better not to spend a lot of time worrying about what someone else did. Acknowledging someones hardwork skill and knowledge is one thing, but listening to a grown man hero worship about who to call a professional and who not to gets old fast.

I heard a story once about a guy that gave a bobcat trapping demo at the NTA one year who had never trapped a bobcat. I suspect that story is true.

I appreciate the turn this post appears to have taken.

Maybe a wolfer is like a minker or ratter,someone who only has the skills to trap one species,never learned how to trap all species in numbers.

Or they are really good at that one species

So what do you call someone that catches a little bit of everything but really not that good at that?

A wannabe?

friend comes to mind. my favorite people outside of family have always been trappers

I think FRIEND is the right choice!

Good answer.

Canadian

I busted out laughing at that one!

I catch a little bit of everything and not a whole lot of anything.

Great thread Mac, ya got em thinking. Your really good at that bud. My 2 pennies. words like Skill , conduct, integrity , and humility have a bunch to the definition a professional, In any endeavor. MJ, MZ have it. We are all still learning, The best trappers are thinkers and know how to manage time to a science and no their targets inside and out. They all use the best gear they can afford weather its ADC or fur.

I would hope at least all trappers conduct themselves in a professional manner if not a title means nothing.